Curse

LifeInfusion · Nov 15, 2010, 01:53 AM // 01:53

So why do people run D/W scythe? Because they can use Warrior's Endurance and not die as fast, while also getting free armor penetration from Strength and "Save Yourselves!" for party damage mitigation. Power attack also happens to give much more +damage than any Dervish attack skills.

A/D with a scythe has the benefit of critical agility, which is +25 armor. This raises it to 95 + insignias and also gives it an IAS. With Way of the Master, it also has a high amount of criticals to make use of the 41 max damage.

Dervishes have Zealous Vow to match up with Warrior's Endurance. However, they don't have the survivability then. Without Avatar of Balthazar or Conviction, they are pretty fragile.

Insignias: Armor +5-20 if enchanted by 1-4 enchantments, +10 while being bad at Dervish (not enchanted)

Eternal Aura is currently only useful for Avatars. That's Dervish territory. You don't see Eternal Aura in builds for W/D, P/D, A/D, or anything of that sort.

Eternal Aura

Quote:

Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes take 65...100 holy damage. For 10 seconds, nothing happens. When this Enchantment ends, all other Dervish Skills are recharged.
* 10 Energy
* 1 Activation
* 30 Recharge

Proposed change:

Quote:

Eternal Aura: Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes take 65...100 holy damage and all other Dervish Skills are recharged. For 10 seconds plus one for every rank in Mysticism, you gain +24 armor against attacks. When this Enchantment ends, all adjacent foes take 15...60 holy damage.
* 10 Energy
* 0.75 Activation (see Balthazar's Rage, Heart of Holy Flame, Zealous Renewal)
* 20 Recharge

or

Quote:

Enchantment Spell. All other Dervish Skills are recharged. For 10 seconds plus one for every rank in Mysticism, you gain 75% chance to block attacks and whenever you are the target of a hostile spell or attack all adjacent foes are set on fire for 1...3 seconds. When this Enchantment ends, all nearby foes take 65...100 holy damage and are set on fire for 3...7 seconds.

It would have nice synergy with They're on fire.

could probably add 33% IAS too that works better than Heart of Fury

Quote:

Enchantment Spell. All other Dervish Skills are recharged. For 10 seconds plus one for every rank in Mysticism, you gain 50% chance to block attacks and attack 33% faster. When this Enchantment ends, all nearby foes take 65...100 holy damage and are set on fire for 3...7 seconds.

50% block is like Conviction and Mirage Cloak, but Critical Defenses is 75%

X Dr Pepper X · Nov 15, 2010, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Dervishes don't need more survivability.

HM Monsters need to be fixed. There's no reason for them to have additional armor penetration and crit % for each level higher than the player.

Also, if they're gonna do anything to Eternal Aura, I'd like to see it give 1 energy back for each skill that was recharged. That would help Dervs manage energy even without avatar builds with the added bonus of nice damage from Eternal Aura.

reaper with no name · Nov 15, 2010, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Extra survivability for one member of the party is generally not significant, especially if it comes with a drop in DPS.

Melee classes do not need defensive skills (SY being an exception, and only then because it affects the party instead of themselves). Taking a defense skill means not taking an offensive one. That means monsters live longer and deal more damage, nullifying the benefits of the defensive skill. The best way for melee to take stress off their healers (the only purpose of any defensive skill) is to kill whatever is applying the stress.

Also, dervishes have no room for Eternal Aura. Their 3 PvE skills are all already reserved if they want to get the most out of their bars.

Oh, and by the way, Conviction provides as much defense (if not more) as your ideas here, making them redundant at best.

-Makai- · Nov 15, 2010, 05:29 AM // 05:29

I dig the OP's last idea, but I agree with X Dr Pepper X that Dervishes already have enough survivability.

Here's an idea for Eternal Aura I came up with a while back. I believe it would help combat two of our worst enemies:

Quote:

10e, insta-cast, 30r
Skill. For 10-15-20 seconds, whenever one of your Dervish enchantments is removed or interrupted, that skill recharges instantly. This skill is disabled for 30 seconds. 50% chance of failure if Mysticism is four or less.

Of course this is assuming avatars receive a normal recharge.

NerfHerder · Nov 15, 2010, 05:44 AM // 05:44

The Dervish has plenty of Defensive options as it is. I am a huge fan of Conviction. With 6 in earth prayers you get a maintainable +24 AR and 50% block. With Blessed or Windwalkers that gives you 104 AR even if your using a ZV build. A W/D only gets 100 AR no blocking and no inherent +25 hp bonus. Making imo, a ZV derv with conviction defensively superior to a W/D scythe.

If Eternal Aura is changed it should be in an offensive way. Something like an IAS and recharges when a Dervish enchantent ends on you. Not to mention the Avatars would need to be made maintainable. If Avatars where made maintainable with out Eternal Aura I wouldnt mind seeing a change.

Eternal Aura. 10e 1/4c 30r. Enchantment. All nearby foes take 65...100 holy damage. For 30 seconds you attack 33% faster. This enchantment is reapplied when a dervish enchantment ends on you. If you have less than 4 in Mysticism, this skill fails.

Life Bringing · Nov 15, 2010, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Suggesting is pointless at this point.
1.Go to Riverside
2.Go to speculation thread.
3.Read OP
4.?????
5.Profit!

Skye Marin · Nov 15, 2010, 06:35 AM // 06:35

I have to agree that survivability is not what makes W/D and A/D more effective at scythes than just D.

I'd rather see the Avatars get good PvE buffs, faster enchant casting times, better AoE rewards for quality enchant juggling, and a buff to Mysticism to fuel it all.

Make Dervishes do something that other professions can't do, and make the numbers and utility good too.

LifeInfusion · Nov 15, 2010, 02:11 PM // 14:11

It's a bunch of factors that make the Dervish suffer:
Mysticism sucks.
W/D gets Armor penetration and a decent IAS (flail)
A/D gets critical abuse and whatnot.

Also having to bring conviction means wasting 5 or 6 attribute levels. The last option, IAS and Conviction rolled into one, solves the problem of needing Heart of Fury AND Conviction just to match a sin in terms of Critical Agility.

We can expect a Dervish overhaul, but things have to start small, am I right? Eternal aura is the one non-Mysticism skill that isn't abused by W/D, A/D.

RedDog91 · Nov 15, 2010, 02:13 PM // 14:13

What makes Warriors with a scythe better than dervishes is:

Attack skill
Attack skill
Attack skill
Attack skill
Flourish!
repeat as needed

You can just sit there spamming non-stop attacks at 65+ damage each.

Xenomortis · Nov 15, 2010, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Move Conviction out of Earth Prayers. Stick it in Mysticism.
Or don't do anything - there isn't really a problem on the Derv side of the equation.

ogre_jd · Nov 15, 2010, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

It's a bunch of factors that make the Dervish suffer:
Mysticism sucks.

Except for most of the skills in it, of course.

Quote:

Also having to bring conviction means wasting 5 or 6 attribute levels.

Only if you never actually use it. It's not a bad skill if you're a Dervish looking for a bit of defense.

DarkKnight · Nov 15, 2010, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Dervs suck at being dervs becuase their derv only attribute is broken and useless.

Mysticism is so useless alot of derv builds don't even use it. What other class on a regular basis for general PvE runs around with little or nothing in their exclusive attribute.

Mysticism doesn't even really have an skills that balance out its complete uselessness as an attribute. Avatars make you look really cool and all but they take up an elite skills slot and the +40 armor from Balth only makes a derv about equal in armor to a warrior with no skills active. The rest of the avatars are niche skills that dont have enough general utility to be useful across the board.

sosycpsycho · Nov 15, 2010, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Survivability has not been an issue for me on my Dervish. I have played with a Avatar of Dwayna axe setup that is great, and there is still a few great dervish build that are not ran by many. The problem I see with Dervish is other professions can use a scythe more effectively. I hope to see some changes to Mysticism or Scythe mastery that would boost the class.
Maintaining an enchantment is harder than a stance or skill in most cases, in the end they will have to stick some skills to Mysticism I agree with above.

Cuilan · Nov 15, 2010, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Dervishes have Zealous Vow to match up with Warrior's Endurance. However, they don't have the survivability then. Without Avatar of Balthazar or Conviction, they are pretty fragile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Also having to bring conviction means wasting 5 or 6 attribute levels.

Then just bring Conviction. It's no waste or loss for a ZV build to put 6 into Earth Prayers.

12+1 Scythe
11+1 Wind
6 Earth

No waste.

LifeInfusion · Nov 16, 2010, 03:02 AM // 03:02

How many Dervishes do you see run conviction? Most run Avatar of Balthazar or Grenth from my experience. Some do Wounding Strike or Reaper's Sweep, but I rarely see Conviction on anyone's bar. It's even rare to see Heart of Fury. The guru community isn't representative of most of the Dervishes, unfortunately.

It's a shame really, since Conviction + "I am unstoppable" are all you need.

The Zealous Vow Dervish isn't all that hot in Hard mode, considering it doesn't have enough enchants for Windwalker's Insignia (no IAS either, just attack skill spam). You're better off with blessed insignia (+10 armor) unless you have orders or something (rare).

Also, Zealous Vow is a lot more removal prone whereas Warrior's Endurance is permanent.

That's why I think the end result is the Dervish needs a good IAS and a bit of survival rolled in one, among other things. But a good IAS (without investing heavily in mysticism) for starters.

Xenomortis · Nov 16, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

The Zealous Vow Dervish isn't all that hot in Hard mode, considering it doesn't have enough enchants for Windwalker's Insignia (no IAS either, just attack skill spam). You're better off with blessed insignia (+10 armor) unless you have orders or something (rare).

Zealous Vow + AoHM is two.
Strength of Honor is three.
The stray prot (Prot Spirit, SB, SoA) makes 4.
3 is a reliable number of enchantments for a Derv in a team that's half considered setup. Even in a PuG with a crap prot monk 3 is common enough and two is reliable, making Windwalker's the superior option.
If you're inclined to Heart of Fury then that's three you maintain on yourself no problem.

The problem here isn't the number of enchantments available, but that they're enchantments. Doing the WiK stuff on my Derv can be nasty with all the strips around meaning it's very easy to instantly blow up. Taking Conviction helped stabilise things, but at the cost of firepower.
I H/hed Vloxen HM on him a little while ago with Whirling Charge and the biggest problem were the regular Summit Sages (spamming Discharge) that basically killed my entire template.

ZV is less stable than WE true, but it's also more powerful.
IAS options are Whirling Charge, Heart of Fury, Drunken Master and Frenzy. The biggest downside to Conviction is that it cannot be used with three of these - you're forced to take the weakest for a ZV Derv. That is not something I would consider changing though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

How many Dervishes do you see run conviction? Most run Avatar of Balthazar or Grenth from my experience. Some do Wounding Strike or Reaper's Sweep, but I rarely see Conviction on anyone's bar. It's even rare to see Heart of Fury. The guru community isn't representative of most of the Dervishes, unfortunately.

This isn't important and is completely irrelevant.
I see very few Warriors run anything other than Defy Pain or Monks not running HB and UA. It's rare I see a non-SS PuG Nec and I don't think I've seen Assassin's Promise on any caster PuG bar ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

That's why I think the end result is the Dervish needs a good IAS and a bit of survival rolled in one, among other things. But a good IAS (without investing heavily in mysticism) for starters.

A good in-house IAS would probably be beneficial, that way you're not forced to slot Frenzy or DM if you want something good but an IAS and Surviability would be far too compressed and not necessary. Trading off defense for damage is fine especially if you're backline is competent.

Before you compare the Derv to the Warrior again, my stance is that WE needs nerfing (so does ZV and for similar reasons, but that would necessitate a fair bit of work being done to Derv skills in general).

Life Bringing · Nov 16, 2010, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Here's my idea. Aohm-->armor pen
some derv skills into adren req.
Change myst to lower the cost of derv skills and grant armor per level.
Buff pious fury to last double if an enchant is removed.
Convert unused derv attacks into skills with utility.
Lower crit damage on the scythe to prevent assassin abuse while increasing the attack speed to compensate

Cuilan · Nov 16, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Lower crit damage on the scythe to prevent assassin abuse while increasing the attack speed to compensate

You would then still have crits more often on the assassin and increased attack speed for both.

Life Bringing · Nov 16, 2010, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

You would then still have crits more often on the assassin and increased attack speed for both.

But if you reduce crit damage to 1.25 instead of 1.41 while simultaneously changing more attack skills to remove enchants for their effects, while introducing dervish enchants that can be used during other actions, the dervish becomes usable and superior to assassins, rangers, and warriors with a scythe.

reaper with no name · Nov 16, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Making more attack skills remove enchantments, with nothing done to make those enchantments worthwhile, would kill what little effectiveness the class does possess, because enchantments require time, energy, attribute points, and skill slots. Requiring them just to use the few attack skills that are worthwhile would simply force dervishes to abandon the scythe entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Here's my idea. Aohm-->armor pen
some derv skills into adren req.
Change myst to lower the cost of derv skills and grant armor per level.
Buff pious fury to last double if an enchant is removed.
Convert unused derv attacks into skills with utility.
Lower crit damage on the scythe to prevent assassin abuse while increasing the attack speed to compensate

Making dervish attack skills run on adrenaline would either not be worthwhile (the attacks that aren't worthwhile would remain as such) or make them even worse (the ones that currently are worthwhile).

Dervishes have more than enough survivability already. Unless you give them some kind of broken SF-like defense, they will still need prot. And if they are getting prot, then they need no additional defense.

Pious Fury would still be worthless.

Increased attack speed would not help as much as you think, because most of the attack skills worth using already have reduced activation times. A better option would be to raise the minimum damage by a large amount and reduce the maximum damage somewhat.