Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Swords and axes do not do the same thing. For one thing, there is more than one sword build that is worth using. HB+WA is a melee AoE build that relies on outside buffs and the assumption that one will always face tons of opponents to deal insane amounts of damage. DS+SY is a single-target build that easily maintains SY. Axe builds, on the other hand, can provide skills like Triple Chop and Cyclone Axe that attack multiple opponents while retaining significant single-target damage. They are not so easily compatible. However, both scythe attack skill spam and enchantment juggling ultimately have the same purpose: multiple target damage in melee with some measure of single-target damage as well. Hence, they are directly comparable (and one can be rendered useless by the other), whereas axes and swords are not.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Enchantment juggling is a hybrid combat style utilizing both enchantments and scythe attacks together. Therefore, they can be viewed as if they were a single weapon. Scythe attack skill spam, however, requires very different attribute investments and skills. You cannot do enchantment juggling and scythe attack skill spam at the same time. In other words, you can't be a pure melee and be a hybrid. You have to choose.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

With the way PvE is currently set up, melee is vastly superior to spells in terms of damage. By the same token, pure melee is superior to hybrid melee+spells.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

In fact, the attacks that don't remove enchantments are significantly more powerful than the ones that do. So, in fact, scythe attacks and enchantments together are synergistically neutral at best, because by taking scythe attacks that appear to synergize with enchantments, you are taking scythe attacks which are inferior to begin with, removing the benefits of any such synergy you might gain.

Therefore, unless enchantments and their removal skills are buffed to such obscene levels that they are even more overpowered than pure melee, they will never be able to compete with said pure melee, and will be useless.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The old Vow of Piety healed random party members. That is, it provided defense for the party. Guess what? Save Yourselves does that better.

I'm saying that buffing B at the cost of A is a waste of resources and counterproductive, when A is the most likely chance for the dervish to not be completely outdone by other professions.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Are you getting the trend here? The best is the best. No matter how much you buff something, if it is still inferior to the best at whatever the specific (or even hybrid) role it has, then it isn't worth taking over the best. And in that case, what did the buff really accomplish? Making an unusable skill usable? the dervish skillset is already quite usable. Making it more fun? That's subjective. Anything can be "fun", and it doesn't have to be good to do that. Buffing enchantment juggling without making it superior to something else will leave it in the exact same boat it is in now: underpowered.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

It's hard to explain, but...I think too many people are getting their hopes up too high. And the more that happens, the more likely I think it is that Anet will (potentially) waste time and effort trying to fix enchantment juggling at the cost of other things that might actually help make the dervish a more useful class.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

But who knows? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Anet really has the knowledge and the desire to make enchantment juggling useful. But we shouldn't expect miracles.

Originally Posted by saint666

Again your logic fails. Sword and Axe roles overlap each other in many occasions, Dragon slash = single target damage, Cleave = single target damage, Hundred Blades = AoE damage, Triple Chop = AoE Damage, both can utilize Warrior's Endurance and spam Power Attack, Counter Attack and Protector's strike. In fact Swords and Axes has way more similarities as both are attack skills than Scythes and enchantments, which are not even the same types of skills. In fact axes and swords in direct competition for dps because they are mutually exclusive, while scythes and enchantments are mutually inclusive so you can take advantage of both to achieve more dps. Scythes provide single target dps/very limited AoE, while enchantments provide TRUE AoE as well as serving as buffs for attacks and energy management. Since you are admitting that Scythes and Enchantments serve the same purpose which ultimately is dps, and they do in different ways, they are therefore compatible with each other because the are working together to achieve the same thing. They fact that axes and swords do many of the same things and are mutually exclusive put them in direct competition with each other, this will make one useless if you are using the other.



Geeee I wonder what this major update we've been waiting for months is about, maybe it's to make the dervish efficiently utilize all it's skills, just a wild guess?



Hey guess what asuran scan, AoHM and GDW are, they are spells, if it hasn't hit you over the head already, it's spells that make melee do insane amounts of damage. What's AoHM, it's an enchantment that enhance's scythe damage to wtf levels.



You keep on answering your own problems don't you, yes buffs ftw. I'm sure anet has enough experience to balance what is needed.

Originally Posted by saint666

I know man why have variety, clearly assassins are better than dervishes, why waste time and effort on a crappy dervish when you can make assassins even better. And what makes you think A+B cannot co exist with each other, they are both parts of the same class, that's like saying well I like my right arm but since it makes my left arm kind of redundant I might as well chop it off. The fact is that with Scythes alone dervishes can never match Assassins and Warriors unless they were buffed to obscene levels to match what strength and critical strikes does. But dervishes do have something that warriors and assassins don't have, synergy with enchantments. Since they can never match warriors and assassins in attack spamming alone they will have to utilize something extra, something different something warriors and assassins cannot do as well, enchantments.



So no matter how much you buff the dervish, assassins are better so why bother at all, that's what your logic sounds like, if this sounds silly, well then you know. Making unusable skills usable, that sounds like the mesmer buff, maybe you missed that. And how bout nether overpowered nor underpowered but balanced, yes it possible even though you can't wrap your mind around this concept.



It actually a good thing, the more it happens the better, so anet doesn't waste time on what people don't want.



If the update sucks, it won't make much of a difference anyways, it's not like dervishes are a part of the meta anyways.

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

I have some difficulty in understanding what you're trying to communicate. You seem to agree that there could be changes which would make juggling awesome, but want us to share in your cynicism that they'll never occur?

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

There is overlap between Swords and Axes, yes, but don't try to tell me they do the exact same thing. Neither of them can fully eclipse the other (as far as I'm aware). The amount of single target and AoE damage that an axe build will do will be different from that of DS or HB.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Now, look at scythe attack spam and enchantment juggling. Where is the variety here? Both are dealing damage to single and multiple targets, and there is nothing to suggest that one be better at one than the other. Therefore, these two forms of game play would be considered direct competitors.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

You cannot devote yourself to spamming MS, EA, and PS while keeping your buffs up (which for the purposes of this conversation should not be confused with spells used for enchantment juggling) and still use enchantment juggling. There aren't enough skill slots for that. Something has to be sacrificed.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

You're splitting hairs. AoHM is not a skill utilized to juggle enchantments (well, currently at least; saint has a pretty good idea for an AoHM change). It is a spell-based buff you put on yourself, and then forget about until you need to reapply it, not a spell cast for damage (on it's own) or removal. I'm using the term "pure melee" here to describe what the dervish does once the buffs are up.
Enchantments on their own aren't inherently useful just because they exist, any more than any other method of dealing damage. It is the results that matter.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

To use a previous example, let's say that every axe build has x dps against single target and y dps against multiple targets. Meanwhile, let's say one particular sword build has x+10 and y+10 dps. In this scenario, whether or not the warrior can use the axe better than other classes would be meaningless, because the axe itself would still be inferior to the sword. Axes are not useful simply because they are axes, they are useful because they provide a combination of offense and defense that cannot be mimicked by something else. The same is true of everything else that is worthwhile in this game.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Now replace the words "axe" with "enchantment juggling" and "sword" with "scythe attack skill spam" and you have the current situation. Assuming dervishes really can utilize enchantments better (I'd argue assassins are currently better due to actually having the energy management to pull it off, but we all know that can be fixed), it wouldn't matter because enchantment juggling is still inferior to the scythe.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

In the simple world of PvE where everything is about damage and defense, a skill/build either provides more of some combination of these two things than the alternatives, or it's underpowered. If two builds are the same but one has 5 more dps, which is better? The one with the extra dps, even if it's a small amount. Now, if the other one had +armor, well, now you're got two slightly different builds with slightly different combinations of damage and defense, each one having something on the other. But the defense provided by scythe attack spam is already all the defense the party will need from the dervish. So unless enchantment juggling can beat scythe attack spam at damage, then it will be less powerful than it.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Well, Assassins have almost twice the dps of the best dervish builds, but that doesn't mean they will always be better. That's why nerfing exists.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Unless enchantment juggling becomes more powerful than scythe attack spam in some way (for example, what if scythe attack skill spam did more damage to single targets but for whatever reason enchantment juggling did more damage to multiple targets? That would allow the two playstyles to both be worthwhile in their own ways)

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Are you implying that most people want to see the dervish get buffed in ways that don't actually help it carve out a niche in this game? In that case, why even bother? PvE is easy enough that bad builds will work. So, really, the net effect of buffing skills that aren't worth using without actually making them worth using is 0. Unless you buff the dervish in a way that gives it a role in this game, then the same fundamental problem (being outperformed by other professions) will continue to exist, no matter what buffs you do. And that just defeats the purpose of trying to fix the class in the first place.

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Here's an idea for Aura Slicer!
5 4 Scythe Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +8...20 damage. If this attack hits an enchanted foe, this attack has 10...50% armor penetration.

Good idea?

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

Against, say, an enchanted Ele with no other sources of armor, this has the potential to reduce armor to 30 AL, which increases damage by 68%. This is not shabby, since you were hitting him hard anyway. With attribute level 15, a scythe with +15^50, Asuran Scan, Aura of Holy Might, you have the potential to make things explode in single hits. Against undead... *shivers* Since you're critting one out of every five hits, I can't help but wonder if this isn't a tad OP.

Personally, an enchantment should be removed if an aura has been sliced.. If it's going to penetrate armor, it should be an armor slicer. But there I go again.

Originally Posted by Cuilan

That wall of text was if dervish should be generic attack spammers or also have the ability to have enchantment juggling and bomber builds.

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Theoretically it would do that much damage. If it was actually put in the game I don't think it would turn out that way...

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

We'll assume we have 15 in scythe mastery on a 9-41 scythe. On a critical hit, you deal 41(+41%) = 58 damage. Aura of Holy Might (rank 0, +41%) for 82 damage. +20 from the skill itself for 102 damage. With an effective 30 AL (+68%), 171 damage. Along with Asuran Scan (rank 0, +45%) for 248 damage. This is without a customization (+20%) and modifier (+15%) and assuming you haven't been grinding titles.

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

Scythe attack: Dervish gains another pure damage attack. For 20 seconds, forget you used to be more.

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Well an Assassin can deal more than that amount of damage now with a scythe.

Originally Posted by saint666

You're splitting hairs. Axes and Swords do similar things, in fact you can only use 1 of them and not pick up the other and finish all 3 campaigns with it, it's only in a few high end instances where HB is actually needed over the other, but other then that in general game play it really doesn't matter which you use, what ever suits your style.



Scythe is very limited AoE not true AoE, while enchantments gives true AoE and additional damage to scythes. So no they are not the same. Scythe attack skills are attack skills, while enchantments are enhancements to those attack skills. The viability of enchantment juggling would only give an additional type of gameplay in ADDITION(Not Replace) to the type we have now, which is a poor assassin imitation. ZV will always be available as a crutch if you feel like holding on to it. I don't see having more variety in game play is a bad thing.




Who said anything about making all attack skills rely on enchantment juggling only, enchantment juggling is about providing variety not limiting it. There still would be attack skills that are good for attack spamming as well as attack skills that take advantage of unique dervish attributes that assassins and warriors don't have access to. Also your problem is easy enough to solve. For the maintained enchantments, increase the recharge and the duration, opposed to the juggled enchantments. Logically the maintained enchantments should always be on the bottom of all the enchantments you have. And also you're thinking that each enchantment you bring is a waste, frankly right now it is, saved for a few(AoHM, wouldn't mind another copy of that). Hopefully with some buffs that can change.



The fact is that you said casting spells would only lower your dps when infact, AoHM not only does not lower your dps but raises it, so you're wrong that casting lowers your dps when in fact with good spells it can raise your dps substantially. All enchantments are buffs whether short term or long, whether it's orders that lasts 5 seconds or life bond that doesn't come off, they serve to enhance your character and raise it's power, that what enchantments are. Whether it's worth your energy and time casting depends solely on what it can do for you. If an enchantment can add 100 aoe damage and in addition 40 more damage to my attack every 5 seconds i'd say that's pretty good adding both spell and melee damage, if not op.




Dude you're splitting hairs again. The differences are so minute it doesn't even matter most of the time, whatever suits you, you have the option. Enchantments Juggling allows dervish to access true AoE and utilize it's primary attribute in addition to attack spamming that it already does right now, just not as good as warriors and assassins. Why should dervish have the OPTION to juggle enchantments? provide a combination of offense and defense that cannot be mimicked by something else. you answered yourself there.



Lol if dervishes didn't suck we wouldn't be talking about buffing them would we. Dervishes are inferior period, whether with a scythe or enchantments right now. They aren't gunna equal assassins or warriors in attack spamming given how CS and STR works even if scythes were limited to dervish only. It will take both attack skills and enchantments together for that to happen. Or you can just buff scythe attacks to obscene levels and make them fail with less than 4 mysticism, love the creativity.



I think you're confusing the assassin and dervish. Assassin spamming any attacks makes things blow up fast, different story with dervishes. If dervish wants to compete at all it has to have some pretty damn good enchantments in it's arsenal. Unless, refer to my creative idea above.



Lawls, nerfing cause a complete fail class can't compete, lets just start with buffing for now okay?



Wow, you keep on answering yourself. It's wouldn't be hard to do either cause dervishes are setting the bar pretty low on scythe spamming, frankly it would give the dervish another option to utilize that assassins and warriors can't.



From the looks of it most people are at least interested in the idea of enchantment juggling in one form or another, and can see it as a possibility unlike you, who thinks making the dervish into an assassin/warrior clone is the only possible way. You keep on asking for something that the dervish can do that can't be out performed by others, guess what that's enchantment juggling, PBAoE nuking. Yet you keep on insisting that dervishes should only be able to attack spam and should be able to do nothing else, guess what sins and wars have that on a lock down, hope for a nerf? Good luck. Lol dude, if you're doing the skill balancing I'm sure bad skills will stay bad with your apparent lack of creativity.

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

I apologize, reaper, but you're asking questions that have been answered. In fact, you give a partial answer to your own question: it was what the Dervish was made for and it'd be fun. The other reasons we might want to do this are listed above, sometimes repeatedly. To summarize, though, I disagree with your criterion that all updates should relate to making a Dervish fill a spot in the Meta; an ER Elementalist, for instance, has no place in this discussion. You are letting, no, forcing a handful of builds determine the future of all updates.

I'm not convinced by the risk aversion argument and I'm not convinced you take it seriously. What shall we make, for instance, of the large number of under-represented Dervish skills that aren't used because the Dervish has been funneled into a secondary attribute? Don't those represent a large waste of development time that could be easily redeemed? No, you're willing to push these skills even further towards being a waste of time just to evolve the class so that it fits into a pigeonhole. Despite feigning an interest in using developer time most efficiently, you actually just want this one skillset to become feasible, the rest of their work be damned (as much of it already has been).

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Wall of text makes me cry.