Curse

reaper with no name · Aug 16, 2010, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillium

...
etc (too long for full quote)

I don't like any of these ideas, they're all... bad. Mysticism has a really great synergy with other party members using enchants (specifically on you), and loosing that synergy would not promote thoughts of full party tactics. In which case what is the point of a party based game?
I also think reduced recharges for a second class that has nothing to do with casting time and recharging is completely unfitting. Mesmer at least had a few skills that reduced recharge times before the update, so it was in fact still within their natural domain of abilities.
Yes, Dervish has Eternal Aura, but that does not reduce recharge times. It simply removes them from anything currently recharging. This is completely different. For example, Eternal Aura will counter a Power Block or Diversion with good timing while reduced recharge times will not counter either.

Specifying removal by a dervish attack is pushing only one form of build, that being relying around scythe attacks, when only half of the dervish enchantment removals are through attacks.
Pious Assault looks closer to the release use of the skill... So what, you want a revert? And you want to change other skills to force it to be useful where it (obviously) is not currently? No thank you.

In order for mysticism to promote party synergy, it would have to be useful, which it, well, isn't. In order for mysticism to be useful in it's current functionality without insane buffs to enchantment juggling (in other words, having scythe attack spam remain the most effective use of the class), it would have to be more powerful than soul reaping. Is that what you want?

saint666 · Aug 17, 2010, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillium

...
etc (too long for full quote)

I don't like any of these ideas, they're all... bad. Mysticism has a really great synergy with other party members using enchants (specifically on you), and loosing that synergy would not promote thoughts of full party tactics. In which case what is the point of a party based game?

So you mean synergy with the party as in being completely broken? With a doubling of the energy gained per enchantment, it would be broken if other players casting enchants on you also giving you energy. It'd be like soul reaping on crack. Other party members critting should give assassins energy, other members using shouts on paras should give them energy? All primarys for the classes except para's function independently. For that reasons para's are completely gimped when trying to function without a party. If the primary was supposed to function with a party then, it will have to be severely weakened for soloing. The energy gain from mysticism was so little, you'd have to have a monk spamming RoF on you to have enough energy, with the energy doubled and the cost of the enchantments lowered dervishes will be self sufficient and have no need for monks to be burning their energy so that you can have enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillium

I also think reduced recharges for a second class that has nothing to do with casting time and recharging is completely unfitting. Mesmer at least had a few skills that reduced recharge times before the update, so it was in fact still within their natural domain of abilities.
Yes, Dervish has Eternal Aura, but that does not reduce recharge times. It simply removes them from anything currently recharging. This is completely different. For example, Eternal Aura will counter a Power Block or Diversion with good timing while reduced recharge times will not counter either.

The reduction of time is there to prevent other classes with the energy, (i.e assassins and W/E warriors) from using dervish enchantments and attacks better than dervishes as well as boosting dervish dmg at the same time. You can remove the reduce recharge times from mysticism and directly reduce the recharge of the enchantments, it be great for warriors and assassins. It's for balancing reasons, just like what was done to soul reaping, ehhh there's no necro skills that limit you to gain energy only 3 times per 15 seconds, it doesn't make sense, durrrrr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillium

Specifying removal by a dervish attack is pushing only one form of build, that being relying around scythe attacks, when only half of the dervish enchantment removals are through attacks.
Pious Assault looks closer to the release use of the skill... So what, you want a revert? And you want to change other skills to force it to be useful where it (obviously) is not currently? No thank you.

Gee use your, imagination, i only listed 2 attack skills and 2 enchantments. You can move some attack skills into mysticism and make them melee attacks, you know like the ones in strength, or have enchantments that are removed by the next attack that hits or removed by a dervish spell instead of attacks, but of course with my set up dervishes would be best on a scythe, oh no dervishes are better on scythes than other weapons, thats soooo wrong. You can still do everything that a dervish can do now, not it it's impressive anyways, but with the option of enchantment juggling and doing it well. No one said anything about touching zealous vow, so by all means you can spam attacks until your fingers bleed.

Satinka · Aug 19, 2010, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Hello,
I just registered to post this and maybe it’s a little over the top. That’s what came to my mind, because everyone is talking about enchantment juggling.

Mysticism
Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 1 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism.
Whenever an Enchantment ends prematurely, it is reapplied for 5% of its remaining duration for each rank of Mysticism.

Lets say you have 10 points in Mysticism. You attack some foes and your monk casted Protective Spirit on you. It still lasted 12 seconds as you activate Pious Assault. Now you gain 3 energy and 10 health, but also Protective spirit will be reapplied for 6 seconds (10 x 5% x 12).

The pros are
- the dervish becomes more sturdy to enchantment removal
- skills that require to remove enchantments can be used easier
- scythe attack skills can be changed to have much more enchantment synergies
- scythe attack skills can be made more energy intensive

The cons
- energy may become much to easy to get
- gimmicks must be addressed

Of course that change will create gimmicks if some skills aren’t changed. Like Eternal Aura with its recharge effect and all the enchantments that damage when they begin or end.

The numbers of Mysticism Attribute may need a little tweaking, but I think you got the idea.

One possible change to limit secondary abuse of scythe attacks may be this.

Mystic Sweep
Melee Attack. Deals +5...9...10 damage (maximum +30) for each enchantment on you. Remove one of your Enchantments. Removal effect: This attack activates faster (0.75 seconds)
Now only dervishes can use the skill to its maximum potential. Other classes have to reapply a new enchantment or use a cover.

Lillium · Aug 19, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Satinka

Hello,
I just registered to post this and maybe it’s a little over the top. That’s what came to my mind, because everyone is talking about enchantment juggling.

Mysticism
Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 1 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism.
Whenever an Enchantment ends prematurely, it is reapplied for 5% of its remaining duration for each rank of Mysticism.

One possible change to limit secondary abuse of scythe attacks may be this.

Mystic Sweep
Melee Attack. Deals +5...9...10 damage (maximum +30) for each enchantment on you. Remove one of your Enchantments. Removal effect: This attack activates faster (0.75 seconds)
Now only dervishes can use the skill to its maximum potential. Other classes have to reapply a new enchantment or use a cover.

Sounds nifty. That would have to be a PvE only addition of course. At 10 mysticism you'd get 50% of the remaining time of an enchantment which is fairly reasonable. There would have to be an exclusion to make sure enchantments like Reversal of Fortune don't get reapplied.

@saint666;
Your ideas are just bad in my opinion. No need to attack me for having an opinion that you don't agree with. The skills you happened to pick are some of the more useful skills that dervishes have, which ruins more than it creates. Attacks in mysticism, however, is a good idea. Given they should be directly related to enchantments in some way.
The energy gain from mysticism does not need to be your main energy fuel on a dervish. He has energy management skills and 4 pips of regen. Use them. However, even when you have a dervish running completely without self enchants or mysticism skills you usually find them dropping a few points into mysticism. Why? Because other people will cast enchantments on you, and its not much, but the little boost is nice. Not something you expect some orders necro, monk, or gimmick to spam enchants to fuel you. But it does still give the attribute function when you are not directly using it. Much more like strength, fast casting, energy storage, or soul reaping.
Warriors can not use Dervish enchantments as well as Dervishes. 2 pips of regen and a smaller innate energy pool definitively says so when an enchantment costs 10 energy and is relatively short as derv enchants tend to be. Assassins can, but they also have a whole line of defensive skills that are just as good if they'll use them correctly.

saint666 · Aug 19, 2010, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Satinka

Hello,
I just registered to post this and maybe it’s a little over the top. That’s what came to my mind, because everyone is talking about enchantment juggling.

Mysticism
Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 1 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism.
Whenever an Enchantment ends prematurely, it is reapplied for 5% of its remaining duration for each rank of Mysticism.

Lets say you have 10 points in Mysticism. You attack some foes and your monk casted Protective Spirit on you. It still lasted 12 seconds as you activate Pious Assault. Now you gain 3 energy and 10 health, but also Protective spirit will be reapplied for 6 seconds (10 x 5% x 12).

Your idea is slightly broken the way it is right now. You can pretty much be enchanted perpetually or at least multiple times with certain enchantments that weren't meant to be able to be used multiple times in a short amount of time, you'd have to have a massive cross class rebalanced to address the issue. Enchantments that come to mind are RoF and Eternal Aura as mentioned but there is a lot more. here goes, Divine Intervention, Watchful Healing, Restful Breeze, Life Sheath, Shield Guardian, Spirit Bond, Balthazar's Pendulum, Holy Wrath, Judge's Intervention and Reversal of Damage, for monk enchantments. Sand Shards, Vital Boon, Watchful Intervention and Guiding Hands for dervish enchantments. Assassin's Remedy, Feigned Neutrality, Way of the Fox, Way of the Lotus and Fox's Promise for assassin enchantments. Illusion of Haste, Auspicious Incantation, Arcane Echo and Echo for mesmer enchantments, that's all I can think of right now. You'd have either change all these skills or make mysticism exclude it's effect on each and every single of these spells which sounds ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillium

@saint666;
Your ideas are just bad in my opinion. No need to attack me for having an opinion that you don't agree with. The skills you happened to pick are some of the more useful skills that dervishes have, which ruins more than it creates. Attacks in mysticism, however, is a good idea. Given they should be directly related to enchantments in some way.

It's just my opinion that your opinions are bad, no need to feel offended, I'm just little blunt at pointing why your opinions are bad. So which skills are some of the better ones? Wounding Strike? Yes it's a great skill for Dervishes, it's even greater on Assassins. Pious Assault is great? decent maybe, at 10 energy it great at stripping monk prots and managing energy by triggering the awwwwesome energy gain from mysticism. Heart of Holy Flames is great? for what, wasting energy and tickling monsters? Aura of Holy might is great? Yes it's fantastic for warriors and assassins right now. Heart of Fury is great, for not being a maintainable IAS? Thanks for being vague and general, I'm just gunna take it as you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillium

The energy gain from mysticism does not need to be your main energy fuel on a dervish. He has energy management skills and 4 pips of regen. Use them. However, even when you have a dervish running completely without self enchants or mysticism skills you usually find them dropping a few points into mysticism. Why? Because other people will cast enchantments on you, and its not much, but the little boost is nice. Not something you expect some orders necro, monk, or gimmick to spam enchants to fuel you. But it does still give the attribute function when you are not directly using it. Much more like strength, fast casting, energy storage, or soul reaping.

Hey guess what, most classes have 4 pips of regeneration, and the sad thing is they can do what a dervish can do just as well or bad, cause the best dps builds for a dervish doesn't even involve mysticism, cause you're right mysticism is not the main driver of dervish builds. Maybe you didn't know this but, mysticism was meant to be the main source energy for dervishes, being a primary attribute and all, but of course not the only source. You're free to blow your elite on ZV or waste 1-2 slots on e-management instead of taking more utility or DPS skills which is mainly where dervs are inferior to the other melees, it up to you. For dervishes to be self sufficient at what it was supposed to be good at, mysticism has to give enough energy, if mysticism is giving more energy it cannot receive energy from other ppl casting enchantment on you, it's just a balance issue that you don't seem to understand. Of course it great getting free energy for doing nothing but gaining 8 energy every 2 seconds with RoF spammed on you is severely broken. You'd have to limit the energy gain from other ppl to a lower potency, as well as lowering the energy gain from yourself to balance it out, and then we're are back where we started. Guess what if ppl don't feel like spamming enchantments on you, you get nothing, so instead of hoping to get a small energy gain from someone else here and there why not put it all in you're own hands. Mysticism has a really great synergy with other party members using enchants (specifically on you), yeh just not when you're using them yourself. You can run Dervs without enchantments of course, just like para's without shouts, Monks without monk spells, Rits without weapon spells/rituals, rangers without ranger/attack skills, just don't expect them to be as good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillium

Warriors can not use Dervish enchantments as well as Dervishes. 2 pips of regen and a smaller innate energy pool definitively says so when an enchantment costs 10 energy and is relatively short as derv enchants tend to be. Assassins can, but they also have a whole line of defensive skills that are just as good if they'll use them correctly.

Hey did you know WE is equivalent to Critical Strikes with a 100% chance of energy gain? So yep warriors definitely cannot manage the energy unlike assassins. Assassins also have this, so they definitely won't use scythes or anything like that. I mean who would even think of abusing skills from other classes gosh?

NerfHerder · Aug 20, 2010, 06:11 AM // 06:11

@Satinka

Your Mysticism idea is interesting. If I may take it a step further, how about whenever a Dervish enchantment ends on you prematurely it is reapplied. That would cut down on secondary enchantment abuse. Skills like extend enchantments and mystic sandstorm may have to be adjusted. But either way it would be a different to juggle enchantments. And if done right could give you the energy and DPS to compete with a ZV Derv.

I listened to a recent interview with John Stumme and he said they are looking at ways to make the Dervish "more fun to play." To me, fun sounds like enchantment juggling.

Satinka · Aug 20, 2010, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Thanks for the feedback.

I knew I forgot many skills of other professions and it would create unbalance. But just changing some dervish skills wouldn't cut it. I think it's an idea that can be worked on. Brainstorming other crazy stuff would be a huge help too.

As NerfHerder said, maybe change it to dervish enchantments only. Or change it so that only your skills that remove enchantments work for the effect.

Like I already said, the numbers can be changed too. Like 40% + 2% for each rank in Mysticism, to have less margin and enable easier attribute spread. Energy and health gain may be lowered to match the new effects.

Anyway I like the ideas here in this thread. Keep the good work going.

reaper with no name · Aug 20, 2010, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Actually, I don't think such an idea would do anything to help the dervish whatsoever in PvE. The problems the dervish suffers there are that it can't use it's own weapon and skills as well as warriors and assassins. Your idea wouldn't address that.

In PvP, it would reduce one of the dervish's weaknesses (enchantment stripping), but it still wouldn't help the dervish's lack of pressure, defense, or utility.

Nechrond · Aug 20, 2010, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Nobody likes my Balthazar's Rage idea? Pfft, you guys just don't know awesome when you see it

Mysticism re-applying enchantments looks like it's derived from my idea for Pious Renewal ("Whenever a non-elite enchantment ends on you, x..y.z% chance to re-apply it).

NerfHerder · Aug 21, 2010, 04:57 AM // 04:57

My mistake, I listened to the interview again. He didnt say they were trying to make the Dervish more fun, he said more viable. Which in turn would be more fun.

It sounds like they are concentrating heavily on the Dervish right now. I'm expecting something along the lines of the Mesmer update in scale, as they are focused just on the Derv(no date for release yet). I just hope they get a few of the nobrainer changes like fixing AoHM and a respectable IAS. ::crosses fingers for an Avatar buff::

reaper with no name · Aug 21, 2010, 07:22 AM // 07:22

To be honest, I both long for and dread the dervish update, because while it might finally give the dervish something worth doing, it might also do absolutely nothing and make Anet think they no longer have to worry about the dervish. Depending on what they change, it might actually be better if the update is all small, no-brainer changes.

It's hard to explain, but, the smaller the update is, the more likely it is that Anet will focus on the simple things (like making the dervish better than other classes with the scythe, which can be done simply by making HoF maintainable in PvE and making AoHM dervish-only, hopefully with the conversion to holy damage removed to allow the dervish to utilize physical damage synergies).

But the larger the update is, the more likely it is that Anet will ignore the scythe and try to overhaul the dervish, which is quite frankly a fool's errand. There is no way Anet will buff enchantment juggling enough to make it competitive with critscythe, or even zealous vow. It's just not gonna happen. We are not going to be seeing spammable PBAoEs with armor-ignoring damage that get removed by spammable scythe attacks that deal +100 damage pre-Asuran Scan. That's what it would take for enchantment juggling to compete with assassins and warriors who use the scythe, and it is not gonna happen.

Other potential mistakes would be for Anet to focus on defense or self-healing (neither of which Dervishes need), or buffing avatars in some way that doesn't make them "OMG, must have this". The only ways I can think of for Avatars to be useful is if they have party-wide effects (and even then it would depend on exactly what benefits are being given) or if they deal more damage than critscythe. And since I don't forsee every avatar adding an unconditional +60 damage to every attack post-update, that one isn't likely to happen either.

Satinka · Aug 22, 2010, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Nobody likes my Balthazar's Rage idea? Pfft, you guys just don't know awesome when you see it

Mysticism re-applying enchantments looks like it's derived from my idea for Pious Renewal ("Whenever a non-elite enchantment ends on you, x..y.z% chance to re-apply it).

Hehe sorry, I didn't intent to steal.
I like your skill idea, but cannot stand chances. They always create discontent. ("You just won, because this and that skill didn't activate like 10 times in a row, blablah")

maxxfury · Aug 22, 2010, 02:24 PM // 14:24

What about tying Aohm to scythe mastery? that way you get better returns at 16, that you do at 12 for a /D.. eg, may been nudging up or down., [email protected] scythe [email protected] [email protected]?

That way you dont need to make the derv spec into the currently crappy mysticism :/ not ideal when you want the derv to be unique....

Seems quite simple and would maybe, *without checking the math* level off the 3 classes with scythe or bring the derv to the top of the scythe users pile?

admittedly it would REALLY only help out bringing down the war/sin dps, and increasing the dps of a derv mostly with a ZV spam bar. Without totally removing the option from /d's.

fr.aodhan · Aug 22, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

There is no way Anet will buff enchantment juggling enough to make it competitive with critscythe, or even zealous vow. It's just not gonna happen. We are not going to be seeing spammable PBAoEs with armor-ignoring damage that get removed by spammable scythe attacks that deal +100 damage pre-Asuran Scan. That's what it would take for enchantment juggling to compete with assassins and warriors who use the scythe, and it is not gonna happen.

Enchantment juggling must become feasible, full stop. Whatever else is going on with a particular weapon, juggling and bombing were obviously intended as choices for the Dervish and should be brought back into play. Here's what I'm hearing, though: the only use of the Dervish is the scythe, because juggling and bombing aren't nearly good enough. However, other classes are better with a scythe than the Dervish. Therefore, the Dervish should be better at the scythe and these other roles will be ignored.

If it turned out that Mesmers could pump out more damage with Air Magic than Eles, does that mean that Earth Magic shouldn't get updated? Only if you insist that all Eles specialize in Air Magic. It's the same basic lack of imagination here. If juggling and bombing are too weak, but we can imagine how they can be made too strong, there exists a happy medium somewhere in the middle that the developers can eventually find.

reaper with no name · Aug 23, 2010, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

What about tying Aohm to scythe mastery? that way you get better returns at 16, that you do at 12 for a /D.. eg, may been nudging up or down., [email protected] scythe [email protected] [email protected]?

That way you dont need to make the derv spec into the currently crappy mysticism :/ not ideal when you want the derv to be unique....

Seems quite simple and would maybe, *without checking the math* level off the 3 classes with scythe or bring the derv to the top of the scythe users pile?

admittedly it would REALLY only help out bringing down the war/sin dps, and increasing the dps of a derv mostly with a ZV spam bar. Without totally removing the option from /d's.

Tying it to scythe mastery wouldn't be enough.

Consider this: If assassins did not have access to AoHM at all, by my math, they would have exactly the same dps as a zealous vow dervish (give or take 5 dps). Therefore, tying it to scythe mastery would not help the dervish, because if assassins are able to use the skill with any real effectiveness (even if it is diminished somewhat), then they will still be far better at the scythe than the dervish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

Enchantment juggling must become feasible, full stop. Whatever else is going on with a particular weapon, juggling and bombing were obviously intended as choices for the Dervish and should be brought back into play. Here's what I'm hearing, though: the only use of the Dervish is the scythe, because juggling and bombing aren't nearly good enough. However, other classes are better with a scythe than the Dervish. Therefore, the Dervish should be better at the scythe and these other roles will be ignored.

If it turned out that Mesmers could pump out more damage with Air Magic than Eles, does that mean that Earth Magic shouldn't get updated? Only if you insist that all Eles specialize in Air Magic. It's the same basic lack of imagination here. If juggling and bombing are too weak, but we can imagine how they can be made too strong, there exists a happy medium somewhere in the middle that the developers can eventually find.

PvE is about damage and defense. Air Magic provides single-target damage, whereas Earth Magic mostly provides defense. They are able to coexist for this reason (though, really, Air Magic still proves unworthy of use thanks to other alternatives). Scythes and enchantment juggling are both methods of dealing damage to multiple targets in melee, and as a result we can compare the two, because they are two different ways of doing the same thing. Therefore, the only things to differentiate them are the amount of damage they deal, and the defense that they offer to the party. If one method is superior to the other in both ways, then the other is useless.

SY (which fits easily onto scythe bars) provides enough defense that anything extra which enchantment juggling could provide in that regard becomes redundant and silly (worse yet, it may not even be possible for enchantment juggling to provide superior party defense, considering the ways in which it currently operates).

Therefore, the only other thing which enchantment juggling could possibly provide to make itself a viable alternative to the scythe would be superior damage. I've already explained why that is unlikely to happen. It would be awesome, yes, but I'm not holding my breath, and neither should you.

saint666 · Aug 23, 2010, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Tying it to scythe mastery wouldn't be enough.

Consider this: If assassins did not have access to AoHM at all, by my math, they would have exactly the same dps as a zealous vow dervish (give or take 5 dps). Therefore, tying it to scythe mastery would not help the dervish, because if assassins are able to use the skill with any real effectiveness (even if it is diminished somewhat), then they will still be far better at the scythe than the dervish.

PvE is about damage and defense. Air Magic provides single-target damage, whereas Earth Magic mostly provides defense. They are able to coexist for this reason (though, really, Air Magic still proves unworthy of use thanks to other alternatives). Scythes and enchantment juggling are both methods of dealing damage to multiple targets in melee, and as a result we can compare the two, because they are two different ways of doing the same thing. Therefore, the only things to differentiate them are the amount of damage they deal, and the defense that they offer to the party. If one method is superior to the other in both ways, then the other is useless.

SY (which fits easily onto scythe bars) provides enough defense that anything extra which enchantment juggling could provide in that regard becomes redundant and silly (worse yet, it may not even be possible for enchantment juggling to provide superior party defense, considering the ways in which it currently operates).

Therefore, the only other thing which enchantment juggling could possibly provide to make itself a viable alternative to the scythe would be superior damage. I've already explained why that is unlikely to happen. It would be awesome, yes, but I'm not holding my breath, and neither should you.

Sword mastery does the exact same thing as Axe mastery, melee dps, except Hundred Blades decimates axe dps, so therefor axes are useless, your logic fails. But there is a difference between sword and axe vs. scythe and enchantments. Unlike swords and axes which are mutually exclusive, scythes and enchantments are mutually inclusive. They are not completing for dps as you seem to put it, rather they work together to enhance each other's damage. Dervish's cannot beat assassins and warriors in attack spamming given the primaries of these classes have built in damage enhancement along with energy management. Even if dervishes were the best with scythes, daggerspam or axespam will still leave dervishes in the dust, unless mysticism has something like criticals or ap built in, ok just stop right there with the bad ideas. So if dervishes are solely relying on attack spamming, sorry they will never be able to compare. This is why enchantments have to come into play to enhance dervish damage as criticals and ap enhances warrior and assassin damage.

fr.aodhan · Aug 23, 2010, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Scythes and enchantment juggling are both methods of dealing damage to multiple targets in melee, and as a result we can compare the two, because they are two different ways of doing the same thing.

I submit that this is incorrect and that you've fallen into the trap I discuss above, insisting that the Dervish play one role. Even today the Dervish has other capabilities and in the past has had more. Consider, for instance, the old Vow of Piety, which healed a random party member on enchantment loss. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to turn under-represented skills into a juggler's tool set. There are some elites (e.g. Pious Renewal) which beg to be strengthened and included in juggling builds.

Quote:

Therefore, the only things to differentiate them are the amount of damage they deal, and the defense that they offer to the party. If one method is superior to the other in both ways, then the other is useless.

You insist on letting the current situation inform what will be, which is a little confusing. Who cares if juggling is useless when we're sitting on the cusp of an update? Just because Role A blows Role B out of the water is no reason to move the class closer to A and neglect B. In fact, one might argue that they should take a closer look at B to make sure the player has some viable choices available. It's certainly no reason to throw in the towel and declare B dead.

Quote:

SY (which fits easily onto scythe bars) provides enough defense that anything extra which enchantment juggling could provide in that regard becomes redundant and silly (worse yet, it may not even be possible for enchantment juggling to provide superior party defense, considering the ways in which it currently operates).

This is the sort of thinking that destroys the variability (read: fun) in designing builds. If juggling doesn't match the power of this one PvE skill in terms of party defense, it is redundant and silly? Do we suspect the developers really think that all Dervish roles should necessarily carry a PvE skill from another class (in fact, another expansion) to be viable? To me, it seems more likely that you're too heavily steeped in popularized builds if this is how you think about updates.

Quote:

Therefore, the only other thing which enchantment juggling could possibly provide to make itself a viable alternative to the scythe would be superior damage. I've already explained why that is unlikely to happen. It would be awesome, yes, but I'm not holding my breath, and neither should you.

I have some difficulty in understanding what you're trying to communicate. You seem to agree that there could be changes which would make juggling awesome, but want us to share in your cynicism that they'll never occur?

reaper with no name · Aug 23, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

Sword mastery does the exact same thing as Axe mastery, melee dps, except Hundred Blades decimates axe dps, so therefor axes are useless, your logic fails. But there is a difference between sword and axe vs. scythe and enchantments. Unlike swords and axes which are mutually exclusive, scythes and enchantments are mutually inclusive. They are not completing for dps as you seem to put it, rather they work together to enhance each other's damage. Dervish's cannot beat assassins and warriors in attack spamming given the primaries of these classes have built in damage enhancement along with energy management. Even if dervishes were the best with scythes, daggerspam or axespam will still leave dervishes in the dust, unless mysticism has something like criticals or ap built in, ok just stop right there with the bad ideas. So if dervishes are solely relying on attack spamming, sorry they will never be able to compare. This is why enchantments have to come into play to enhance dervish damage as criticals and ap enhances warrior and assassin damage.

Swords and axes do not do the same thing. For one thing, there is more than one sword build that is worth using. HB+WA is a melee AoE build that relies on outside buffs and the assumption that one will always face tons of opponents to deal insane amounts of damage. DS+SY is a single-target build that easily maintains SY. Axe builds, on the other hand, can provide skills like Triple Chop and Cyclone Axe that attack multiple opponents while retaining significant single-target damage. They are not so easily compatible. However, both scythe attack skill spam and enchantment juggling ultimately have the same purpose: multiple target damage in melee with some measure of single-target damage as well. Hence, they are directly comparable (and one can be rendered useless by the other), whereas axes and swords are not.

Enchantment juggling is a hybrid combat style utilizing both enchantments and scythe attacks together. Therefore, they can be viewed as if they were a single weapon. Scythe attack skill spam, however, requires very different attribute investments and skills. You cannot do enchantment juggling and scythe attack skill spam at the same time. In other words, you can't be a pure melee and be a hybrid. You have to choose.

With the way PvE is currently set up, melee is vastly superior to spells in terms of damage. By the same token, pure melee is superior to hybrid melee+spells.

In fact, the attacks that don't remove enchantments are significantly more powerful than the ones that do. So, in fact, scythe attacks and enchantments together are synergistically neutral at best, because by taking scythe attacks that appear to synergize with enchantments, you are taking scythe attacks which are inferior to begin with, removing the benefits of any such synergy you might gain.

Therefore, unless enchantments and their removal skills are buffed to such obscene levels that they are even more overpowered than pure melee, they will never be able to compete with said pure melee, and will be useless.

fr.aodhan · Aug 23, 2010, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Enchantment juggling is a hybrid combat style utilizing both enchantments and scythe attacks together.

The Dervish can remove his enchantments in a number of other ways, so it's not clear where you're getting this definition. My suspicion is that you're confusing one very popular way to strip enchantments with the only way to strip enchantments.

Quote:

Therefore, unless enchantments and their removal skills are buffed to such obscene levels that they are even more overpowered than pure melee, they will never be able to compete with said pure melee, and will be useless.

It's curious that you skip from uselessly underpowered to obscenely overpowered. Why not buff them to be roughly comparable? If 1 is too little and 9 is too much, why not 5?

reaper with no name · Aug 23, 2010, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

I submit that this is incorrect and that you've fallen into the trap I discuss above, insisting that the Dervish play one role. Even today the Dervish has other capabilities and in the past has had more. Consider, for instance, the old Vow of Piety, which healed a random party member on enchantment loss. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to turn under-represented skills into a juggler's tool set. There are some elites (e.g. Pious Renewal) which beg to be strengthened and included in juggling builds.

You insist on letting the current situation inform what will be, which is a little confusing. Who cares if juggling is useless when we're sitting on the cusp of an update? Just because Role A blows Role B out of the water is no reason to move the class closer to A and neglect B. In fact, one might argue that they should take a closer look at B to make sure the player has some viable choices available. It's certainly no reason to throw in the towel and declare B dead.

This is the sort of thinking that destroys the variability (read: fun) in designing builds. If juggling doesn't match the power of this one PvE skill in terms of party defense, it is redundant and silly? Do we suspect the developers really think that all Dervish roles should necessarily carry a PvE skill from another class (in fact, another expansion) to be viable? To me, it seems more likely that you're too heavily steeped in popularized builds if this is how you think about updates.

I have some difficulty in understanding what you're trying to communicate. You seem to agree that there could be changes which would make juggling awesome, but want us to share in your cynicism that they'll never occur?

The old Vow of Piety healed random party members. That is, it provided defense for the party. Guess what? Save Yourselves does that better.

I'm saying that buffing B at the cost of A is a waste of resources and counterproductive, when A is the most likely chance for the dervish to not be completely outdone by other professions.

There is nothing stopping you from making "fun" builds on your dervish right now. I do it all the time. But I don't pretend these builds are in any way as effective as other builds. Underpowered skills that get buffed but remain underpowered anyway are still underpowered. And no, dervishes shouldn't have to bring SY just to be useful. That's why they should be better with scythes than assassins, at the very least. But until a better option than SY exists for party defense on a dervish, then SY will remain as the best option for that.

Are you getting the trend here? The best is the best. No matter how much you buff something, if it is still inferior to the best at whatever the specific (or even hybrid) role it has, then it isn't worth taking over the best. And in that case, what did the buff really accomplish? Making an unusable skill usable? the dervish skillset is already quite usable. Making it more fun? That's subjective. Anything can be "fun", and it doesn't have to be good to do that. Buffing enchantment juggling without making it superior to something else will leave it in the exact same boat it is in now: underpowered.

It's hard to explain, but...I think too many people are getting their hopes up too high. And the more that happens, the more likely I think it is that Anet will (potentially) waste time and effort trying to fix enchantment juggling at the cost of other things that might actually help make the dervish a more useful class.

But who knows? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Anet really has the knowledge and the desire to make enchantment juggling useful. But we shouldn't expect miracles.