Curse

reaper with no name · Aug 05, 2010, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

None of my suggestions are for PvP. That's just silly.

Are you comparing them skill to skill? I don't see how that can be. If you stack up AOHM with my Vow of Strength a customized +15% scythe and SoH you'll be dealing extraordinary damage per hit I'm sure. That's without even adding attack skills to the equation.

Eh? Do you not see what I'm trying to do with this skill? It's for enchant juggling/bombing. Sneak Attack has no place in anything like that and can only blind 3 people at a time.

Then warriors are broken?

And this gives you both. It doesn't have to be the best skill in the whole game to be usable. Snare the foe now so you don't have to chase him later.

They aren't? Then I apologize profusely.

What's 40% of 60? Well, add that to 60 and you won't get 100, which is about what a zealous vow dervish can get against a 100 AL foe. I've done more in depth math before. I didn't include SoH though. However, I think that would actually benefit a zealous vow dervish more due to the higher average attack speed (when buffs come into the picture, it's all about the number of packets). And once again, powerful skills in Earth or Wind Prayers practically scream to be abused by secondaries. As strange as it may seem, keeping those skills weak (or double linked to mysticism, at least) is actually better for the dervish in the long run.

Hammer Warriors can't hit multiple foes with every attack. That's not to say that I think the concept you have can't work, however. In fact, the mental image of dervishes causing AoE knockdowns when a long-recharge PBAoE enchantment goes off seems downright cool to me. But that's a whole 'nother subject...

Enchantment juggling isn't useful right now. Adding blind to it wouldn't help that. Or is this just meant to be something that would be part of an enchantment juggling buff? That would be different (and would indeed be a good idea).

The essential problem with snares is that if the party is doing it's job correctly, they provide absolutely no benefit. That monster should be dead before he can run away to begin with.

PvE is a format that rewards damage and defense. There are multiple ways to do these, yes (defense can take forms as varied as prot, healing, minions, blind, and knockdowns, for example), but unless you can provide some combination of them that no other class can, you'll be left in the outpost. This is exactly what the rit and mesmer buffs gave us, and it's the only thing that will help the dervish.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 05, 2010, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

What's 40% of 60? Well, add that to 60 and you won't get 100, which is about what a zealous vow dervish can get against a 100 AL foe. I've done more in depth math before. I didn't include SoH though. However, I think that would actually benefit a zealous vow dervish more due to the higher average attack speed (when buffs come into the picture, it's all about the number of packets). And once again, powerful skills in Earth or Wind Prayers practically scream to be abused by secondaries. As strange as it may seem, keeping those skills weak (or double linked to mysticism, at least) is actually better for the dervish in the long run.

The entire build brings forth this kind of damage. Not just that single skill though. You add the 30% from VoS and the 25%(?) from AoHM. Then add damage from attack skills. Throw in some Asura Scan and you've got even more damage. Maybe have a monk throw SoH on you? All those damage boosts will add up to big damage. There's the 42 base attack damage. Then you get about 67 from SoH. Then you can basically multiply that by 2 since asura scan and the two other buffs will take you to 105% damage. So you're dealing 124 with base attacks. If you deal say +20 damage with some scythe attack you're gonna be dealing 164 damage. If you can do this once every second and a half that's nothing to scoff at. Wit ha decent IAS it's even better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Hammer Warriors can't hit multiple foes with every attack. That's not to say that I think the concept you have can't work, however. In fact, the mental image of dervishes causing AoE knockdowns when a long-recharge PBAoE enchantment goes off seems downright cool to me. But that's a whole 'nother subject...

This isn't per attack. It's per attack skill. Big difference. And earthshaker buffed with some adren support can keep a decent sized group on the ground for awhile. Then there's the fact that warriors have stonefist insignias which makes KD last that much longer.

Also in PvE everything can't get knocked down. So I really don't see it as overpowered. Plus it makes sense with the wording for Vow of Strength to knock people down. It fits nicely in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Enchantment juggling isn't useful right now. Adding blind to it wouldn't help that. Or is this just meant to be something that would be part of an enchantment juggling buff? That would be different (and would indeed be a good idea).

Adding blind PLUS damage on every enchants end would help juggling a lot. It'd basically make even the most worthless enchant have a decent end effect. But they would obviously need to overhaul all of earth prayers along with changing this skill for it to be completely useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The essential problem with snares is that if the party is doing it's job correctly, they provide absolutely no benefit. That monster should be dead before he can run away to begin with.

Well in WiK content the melee classes always like to run behind my frontline to attack my backline. A snare would make it that much more difficult. But be honest my change is infinitely better than the skills current functionality. This elite gets beaten by another non elite skill in the same attribute line. That's unacceptable. This skill is the amity of the Dervish. So yea maybe it does even more juice. I just can't think of what to add.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

PvE is a format that rewards damage and defense. There are multiple ways to do these, yes (defense can take forms as varied as prot, healing, minions, blind, and knockdowns, for example), but unless you can provide some combination of them that no other class can, you'll be left in the outpost. This is exactly what the rit and mesmer buffs gave us, and it's the only thing that will help the dervish.

I understand. I think some of my changes give Dervishes these things. Just assume all my changes have a req of 4-8 in myst and some downside if you don't meet that req.

Also I kind of want to see changes for the non avatar mysticism elites out there. It would be cool to see peoples ideas on this.

Nechrond · Aug 06, 2010, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Also I kind of want to see changes for the non avatar mysticism elites out there. It would be cool to see peoples ideas on this.

Arcane Zeal is used by Orders spammers, AB healers and sometimes bombers; Pious Renewal is used by RA healers; Vow of Silence is used by runners. Changes to these will probably harm more players than they'd help. I know I'd be pissed off if they changed Arcane Zeal - unless, of course, we're talking about simple buffs here.
Of these 3, Pious Renewal is probably the best target for a change, because the RA healer can also use other enchantments for fuel - and according to most, the best version doesn't run it (uses Echo as its elite instead).

EDIT: Would be wicked if they changed Pious Renewal into "Whenever a non-elite enchantment ends on you, x..y.z % chance to re-apply it."

NerfHerder · Aug 06, 2010, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Most of these are for PvE only.

Pious Renewal. 5e 1/4c 10r. For 15 seconds, each time you cast a Spell, you gain 0...3...4 Energy and 0...15...20 Health, for each Dervish Enchantment on you.

ER gave the Ele an interesting niche and another role to fill if needed. This skill change is basically an ER rehash for Dervishes. If Enchantment Juggling comes back, this could be a nice elite for that purpose.

Vow of Silence. 5e 1/4c 10r. For 0...7...9 seconds, you cannot be the target of enemy Spells. Ends if you use an Attack Skill.

Moved duration down to keep from being exploited. If Sins are still allowed to have Shadow Form I dont see why a Dervish cant have this. The main purpose would be to allow the Dervish to become a more viable tank, to ball up mobs for a caster spike.

::misplaced skills rant below::

Zealous Vow should be moved to Mysticism*(no change to functionality) and Arcane Zeal should be moved to Wind Prayers. Possibly with Arcane Zeal getting a functionality change to reflect whatever the hell Wind Prayers are supposed to do. On that note, Wind Prayers should decide what it wants to do. Besides having a loose affiliation with cold damage(not as good as lightning), movement(useless and crippling is better in Earth prayers), Grenth(no lifestealing included), and Dwayna(doesnt Mysticism already cover healing?) I cant figure it out. Earth Prayers is about defense, conditions, and Earth damage. Mysticism is about energy, Holy damage, and self healing. So Mystic Regeneration should also be moved to Mysticism. I suggest swapping Imbue Health with Natural Healing and making Mysticism about self healing and Wind Prayers about healing others. Also give Wind Prayers some lifestealing in the grenth skills instead of crippling and change damage type to lightning on the non grenth skills.

And of course, AoHM should be tied to Mysticism.

*I think reaper suggested the ZV move at one point.

Nechrond · Aug 06, 2010, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Most of these are for PvE only.

Pious Renewal. 5e 1/4c 10r. For 15 seconds, each time you cast a Spell, you gain 0...3...4 Energy and 0...15...20 Health, for each Dervish Enchantment on you.

Pious Renewal. For 5 less energy and 50% longer than you'd expect, you are enchanted with Arcane Zeal only more so, and you're also almost in Avatar of Dwayna form. ORLY? Arcane Zeal has the ER rehash thing covered. If you don't think Arcane Zeal is good enough, just cut the cost and/or activation time.

Quote:

Vow of Silence. 5e 1/4c 10r. For 0...7...9 seconds, you cannot be the target of enemy Spells. Ends if you use an Attack Skill.

Good thing you said it'd be PvE-only. This PWNs Shadow Form by a wide margin. But yeah, it'd boost Derv popularity, meaning the new skills would actually get tested. I support this one.

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Zealous Vow should be moved to Mysticism*

Forcing Zealous Vow Dervs to spec Mysticism and robbing them off their Wind Prayers skills - Assassins don't need it in the first place.

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Arcane Zeal should be moved to Wind Prayers

Robbing it of its inherent synergy with the attribute it's in and cutting its flexibility in half...

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Incoherent novella about Wind Prayers

Wind Prayers is the utility attribute. The fact that it tries to do multiple things at once just allows more flexibility in builds. Some of the skills are weak, but I like the fact that you can get Featherfoot Grace, unblockable hits, energy management, party healing and self healing without spreading your attribute points as thin as gossamer. DISCLAIMER: No, I wouldn't put them all on one bar, but it's nice that you only need a few spare attribute points to pick up all the utility you want.

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And of course, AoHM should be tied to Mysticism.

Only for duration.

reaper with no name · Aug 06, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

The entire build brings forth this kind of damage. Not just that single skill though. You add the 30% from VoS and the 25%(?) from AoHM. Then add damage from attack skills. Throw in some Asura Scan and you've got even more damage. Maybe have a monk throw SoH on you? All those damage boosts will add up to big damage. There's the 42 base attack damage. Then you get about 67 from SoH. Then you can basically multiply that by 2 since asura scan and the two other buffs will take you to 105% damage. So you're dealing 124 with base attacks. If you deal say +20 damage with some scythe attack you're gonna be dealing 164 damage. If you can do this once every second and a half that's nothing to scoff at. Wit ha decent IAS it's even better.

This isn't per attack. It's per attack skill. Big difference. And earthshaker buffed with some adren support can keep a decent sized group on the ground for awhile. Then there's the fact that warriors have stonefist insignias which makes KD last that much longer.

Also in PvE everything can't get knocked down. So I really don't see it as overpowered. Plus it makes sense with the wording for Vow of Strength to knock people down. It fits nicely in my opinion.

Adding blind PLUS damage on every enchants end would help juggling a lot. It'd basically make even the most worthless enchant have a decent end effect. But they would obviously need to overhaul all of earth prayers along with changing this skill for it to be completely useful.

Well in WiK content the melee classes always like to run behind my frontline to attack my backline. A snare would make it that much more difficult. But be honest my change is infinitely better than the skills current functionality. This elite gets beaten by another non elite skill in the same attribute line. That's unacceptable. This skill is the amity of the Dervish. So yea maybe it does even more juice. I just can't think of what to add.

I understand. I think some of my changes give Dervishes these things. Just assume all my changes have a req of 4-8 in myst and some downside if you don't meet that req.

Also I kind of want to see changes for the non avatar mysticism elites out there. It would be cool to see peoples ideas on this.

VoS builds don't have enough energy to do much in the way of attack skills. Maybe one every 4 seconds or so. That'll add maybe 10 dps max, even with all the buffs. Zealous Vow builds have higher attack speeds than VoS.

Hey, you said "scythe attacks", not "scythe attack skills"!

Fine. I have no objections. But I still don't see how that will help, honestly. The dervish can either be better at knockdowns than the warrior, or not. If it's not (which is what you seem to indicate), I don't see the class being used for that purpose.

If you can get enchantment juggling to provide damage that rivals scythes, then blindspam might become useful. But keep in mind that perma blind isn't really much better than SY (less effective against melee, but it is a buff rather than a debuff and affects caster damage). So the usefulness of the class would still be questionable at best.

As far as party defense goes, snares are at the bottom of the effectiveness scale. If you're going to take the time and attribute points for a snare, you'd technically be better off spending them on some other, more active, form of defense, such as blindness (as in your other idea), weakness, or SY. Active stuff like that would fit far better. Hey, what about daze? I'm not trying to say that your idea of giving the dervish a damage boost plus something defensive in the same elite isn't a good strategy (it's a great idea), I just have issue with snares as being that something.

Arcane Zeal is an absolutely crappy ER that is only useful for Orders (and even then, the fact that you have lower blood magic and need to burn your elite makes the dervish an inferior choice). Not sure what you could do with that other than a complete functionality change. Oh well, no big loss. It's only good for a build that is already done better on another profession anyway.

Pious Renewal requires enchantments to be ending on you all the time. I do have a crappy but fun build that uses the latter for enchantment juggling (though again, it absolutely sucks). Maybe if that skill added something useful? Like what if it did, say, 40 holy damage each time an enchantment ended on you? Of course, in practice that idea probably wouldn't work because of scatter, but most of my more off-the-wall ideas are like that. Come to think of it, this might be a better fit for bel's EDA idea, because it would provide energy while blinding things while encouraging dervishes to do what they were designed to do.

If all the changes are double-linked to mysticism, then good. I don't have to worry about secondary abuse when analyzing these things.

Moving zealous vow on it's own won't solve anything, because warriors can still use WE. Now, if WE was nerfed into uselessness at the same time, THEN we'd be good (at least as far as not being completely redundant).

If Vow of Silence were like that, it would be roughly as powerful as the old SF, because dervishes would just take offensive spells for damage from their secondary and use Earth Prayers to tank physicals. Very bad idea.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 06, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Fine. I have no objections. But I still don't see how that will help, honestly. The dervish can either be better at knockdowns than the warrior, or not. If it's not (which is what you seem to indicate), I don't see the class being used for that purpose.

Not really worse. Just different. I mean ele's and assasins both have knockdown and they aren't useless.

This would have a much simpler set up for knocking down than say earth shaker. No intricate adrenaline gain just one enchantment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If you can get enchantment juggling to provide damage that rivals scythes, then blindspam might become useful. But keep in mind that perma blind isn't really much better than SY (less effective against melee, but it is a buff rather than a debuff and affects caster damage). So the usefulness of the class would still be questionable at best.

Why are you comparing this skill to Save Yourself?

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

As far as party defense goes, snares are at the bottom of the effectiveness scale. If you're going to take the time and attribute points for a snare, you'd technically be better off spending them on some other, more active, form of defense, such as blindness (as in your other idea), weakness, or SY. Active stuff like that would fit far better. Hey, what about daze? I'm not trying to say that your idea of giving the dervish a damage boost plus something defensive in the same elite isn't a good strategy (it's a great idea), I just have issue with snares as being that something.

Works for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Moving zealous vow on it's own won't solve anything, because warriors can still use WE. Now, if WE was nerfed into uselessness at the same time, THEN we'd be good (at least as far as not being completely redundant).

That's a bad idea. That skill is a good and and useful skill on wars even without scythes. Leave warriors alone. And leave zealous Vow as it is. It's probably the only skill on the Dervish that's pretty much good as is. I think it should be used by sins for DAGGER builds on occations because cross class synergy isn't actually a bad thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If Vow of Silence were like that, it would be roughly as powerful as the old SF, because dervishes would just take offensive spells for damage from their secondary and use Earth Prayers to tank physicals. Very bad idea.

Not really. You'd have to be speccing fairly high into mysticism to start. Shadow form made ALL attacks and attack skills miss as well as screwing up spells. You needed 3 skills to maintain shadow form and there was a 0% chance that any melee would hurt you. This skill would require 3+ skill slots and STILL would have you getting attacked which has it's downsides. This version of VoS is more like the current obsidian flesh. Which is for all intents and purposes a good tanking skill and not much else.

Nechrond · Aug 06, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Arcane Zeal is an absolutely crappy ER that is only useful for Orders (and even then, the fact that you have lower blood magic and need to burn your elite makes the dervish an inferior choice). Not sure what you could do with that other than a complete functionality change. Oh well, no big loss. It's only good for a build that is already done better on another profession anyway.

I know you only care about PvE, but this skill is actually good in AB, which is, to me, the best part of the game. Maintainable infinite energy for cheap spells = yes please. This allows Dervs to be far better pressure healers than Monks. Hands off, unless we're talking about a clear buff. Dervs have actually found a niche here, don't take it away from us.

DISCLAIMER: Monks are still better at spike healing, and will always outperform Dervs at party size 6+. But not all relevant parts of the game are party size 6+.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 06, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

I know you only care about PvE, but this skill is actually good in AB, which is, to me, the best part of the game. Maintainable infinite energy for cheap spells = yes please. This allows Dervs to be far better pressure healers than Monks. Hands off, unless we're talking about a clear buff. Dervs have actually found a niche here, don't take it away from us.

DISCLAIMER: Monks are still better at spike healing, and will always outperform Dervs at party size 6+. But not all relevant parts of the game are party size 6+.

People bring healers to AB now? What is the world coming too?

Anyway since we are talking about is possible a BUFF IN PVE I don't see what the problem is.

reaper with no name · Aug 07, 2010, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

I know you only care about PvE, but this skill is actually good in AB, which is, to me, the best part of the game. Maintainable infinite energy for cheap spells = yes please. This allows Dervs to be far better pressure healers than Monks. Hands off, unless we're talking about a clear buff. Dervs have actually found a niche here, don't take it away from us.

DISCLAIMER: Monks are still better at spike healing, and will always outperform Dervs at party size 6+. But not all relevant parts of the game are party size 6+.

It's not that I don't care about PvP (though, admittedly, I don't care as much about it as PvE), but rather that I don't know as much about it, and I don't like to talk about things I don't know much about. You don't see me talking about what the best mesmer bars are, do you?

So fine. I'll leave your skill alone. I honestly didn't have any ideas for it, anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Why are you comparing this skill to Save Yourself?

Not really. You'd have to be speccing fairly high into mysticism to start. Shadow form made ALL attacks and attack skills miss as well as screwing up spells. You needed 3 skills to maintain shadow form and there was a 0% chance that any melee would hurt you. This skill would require 3+ skill slots and STILL would have you getting attacked which has it's downsides. This version of VoS is more like the current obsidian flesh. Which is for all intents and purposes a good tanking skill and not much else.

Because both prevent damage to the party in ways that can be measured (blindness = melee being 90% less effective).

Conviction and Armor of Sanctity. There. Now you have almost nothing to fear from melee.

But all this talk about knockdowns has made me think. Maybe that's what AoB should do. Since really, the skill seems intended to make you more like a warrior, perhaps it should offer knockdowns with attack skills? It would certainly be more useful than a 33% IMS.

Also, funny little thing I came to realize. Of the three classes (Paragon, Necromancer, Dervish) that cannot inflict knockdowns on enemies without PvE skills, the Dervish is the only one that can inflict knockdowns on itself.

NerfHerder · Aug 07, 2010, 05:54 PM // 17:54

My main reason for wanting a few things moved to Mysticism, is for Dervishes to actually spec into it in the first place. I cant think of many good builds that dont require a high spec into ones primary atrribute, and thats because your primary attribute should be what makes your profession stand out form the rest. This could also be fixed by buffing Mysticism/and its related skills or you can change the funtionality to something better. Assassins dont need ZV because Crit strikes is superior. I would like to see Dervishes get some milage out of thier own primary sttribute. The reason I mention it it that Mysticism seems like the energy attribute for Dervs, maybe Anet has other ideas.

Wind Prayers dont offer much in PvE. To me its not worth speccing into. And, what little utility it has in PvP keeps getting nerfed for some reason.

I could see AoB being changed to +40AR, +33% IAS and your attack skills cause KD. That could be fun.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 07, 2010, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

But all this talk about knockdowns has made me think. Maybe that's what AoB should do. Since really, the skill seems intended to make you more like a warrior, perhaps it should offer knockdowns with attack skills? It would certainly be more useful than a 33% IMS.

Meh I'd much rather AoB be a +33% IAS with -10 damage reduction and some other damage boosting effect. Maybe take away the whole holy damage thing and add something like "You deal 15 more damage to foes when wielding a fire/holy weapon" or something.

It'd be like Flail+SFA+Conjure Flames.

Also I'd like to see enchantments that end on the next attack skill and cause damage. That way rather than just spamming a shitload of attacks dervishes could just unleash big loads of damage at once. Then once all the enchantments end you get back a bunch of energy and health for the next big boom.

Dealing 400-500 AoE damage every 5 seconds aint bad but isn't overpowered if you have to dedicate most of your bar to it.

saint666 · Aug 07, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

having a buff that make all your attack skills kd when you mindlessly spam them is terribly broken. Do you know why you can't self buff with GDW?

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Meh I'd much rather AoB be a +33% IAS
Also I'd like to see enchantments that end on the next attack skill and cause damage. That way rather than just spamming a shitload of attacks dervishes could just unleash big loads of damage at once. Then once all the enchantments end you get back a bunch of energy and health for the next big boom.

Dealing 400-500 AoE damage every 5 seconds aint bad but isn't overpowered if you have to dedicate most of your bar to it.

400-500 aoe damage with every 5 seconds is too much, eles that were designed to aoe can't even come close. 200-300 aoe per 5 seconds is a good balance imo considering the amount of dmg that's already possible with a scythe. The enchantments should do aoe when it's stripped by an attack skill only after it hits. If not you'd have a melee class thats immune to all melee counters, massive dmg with an infinite amount of energy, and more DWG-like mindless in DoA.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 07, 2010, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

having a buff that make all your attack skills kd when you mindlessly spam them is terribly broken. Do you know why you can't self buff with GDW?

You mean the skill that makes you KD and gives you extra damage and is not elite?

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

400-500 aoe damage with every 5 seconds is too much, eles that were designed to aoe can't even come close. 200-300 aoe per 5 seconds is a good balance imo considering the amount of dmg that's already possible with a scythe. The enchantments should do aoe when it's stripped by an attack skill only after it hits. If not you'd have a melee class thats immune to all melee counters, massive dmg with an infinite amount of energy, and more DWG-like mindless in DoA.

No it isn't. Dervishes can do it now. And so can sins. And so can warriors. With an IAS and 1 sec attack skills you're dishing out over 100 damage per skill and you're shooting one out approximately once per second. Which ends up being more than 500 dmg. Of course you need to have a proper build.

The comparison to ele's doesn't work because

A. Ele's are ranged so won't be dealing the same damage as an up close class.

B.Ele's are weak in hard mode when it comes to AoE anyway. A Mes makes them look stupid in comparison.

I agree that the attack should hit. I didn't even think about them being able to work if the attack didn't hit.

Although enchants are pretty damn easy to strip. So with that being a weakness along with the every day anti melee crap it might be too easy to counter. But if it's dealing big numbers when successful I'd say it's worth it.

saint666 · Aug 07, 2010, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

You mean the skill that makes you KD and gives you extra damage and is not elite?

yes the pve skill that requires another human player to cast on you if they feel like it and not one that you can slap on and have 100% dmg reduce on anything you hit whenever you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

No it isn't. Dervishes can do it now. And so can sins. And so can warriors. With an IAS and 1 sec attack skills you're dishing out over 100 damage per skill and you're shooting one out approximately once per second. Which ends up being more than 500 dmg. Of course you need to have a proper build.

no melee chars can deal 500 AOE dmg per 5 seconds. Melee have about 100-120 single target dps and the casters are already QQing how op they are, you want to extend that to true AoE? Death blossom can achieve 200 or so AoE in 5 seconds, Hundred blades itself is unimpressive unless you have a MoP caller and scythe attacks are limited to 3 targets. If Enchantment Juggling was made viable it would be true AoE, you think having 100 maintainable AoE dps combined with massive single target dps is balanced? DwG is already destroying DoA with minimal effort, think harder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Although enchants are pretty damn easy to strip. So with that being a weakness along with the every day anti melee crap it might be too easy to counter. But if it's dealing big numbers when successful I'd say it's worth it.

If enchantment Juggling was made viable, then mysticism would be reworked so it actually covered the cost of the enchants and the recharge on the enchantments would be dramatically reduced. All that would happen if your short recharge enchantments get stripped would be providing more fuel for you to recast them again. If it were not susceptible to anti melee then what would be able to stop it/a team from steam rolling everything with 100 aoe dps each that you suggested?

Buff energy management for mysticism for maintainable attacks and enchantment juggling, reduce the recharge offensive dervish enchants and rebalanced effects and damage. Make dervish attacks better synergize with enchant stripping. The end result should be 200-300 AoE dmg/5seconds+conditions, around 100 single/three target dps.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 08, 2010, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

yes the pve skill that requires another human player to cast on you if they feel like it and not one that you can slap on and have 100% dmg reduce on anything you hit whenever you want.

It's unstrippable. VoS is not.
It adds damage. (this) VoS does not.
It activates on every attack. VoS does not.
It's non elite. VoS is not.

So what if you have to have another person in your party cast it on you? Are parties with more than one person really rare in high end PvE nowadays? And it's not whenever you want. It comes into effect whenever your attack skill successfully hits. Blind? No hit. Some kind of missing hex? No Hit. Blocking? No Hit. Also it's strippable...

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

no melee chars can deal 500 AOE dmg per 5 seconds. Melee have about 100-120 single target dps and the casters are already QQing how op they are, you want to extend that to true AoE? Death blossom can achieve 200 or so AoE in 5 seconds, Hundred blades itself is unimpressive unless you have a MoP caller and scythe attacks are limited to 3 targets. If Enchantment Juggling was made viable it would be true AoE, you think having 100 maintainable AoE dps combined with massive single target dps is balanced? DwG is already destroying DoA with minimal effort, think harder.

Abusing scythes you can deal around 100+ damage per 1.13 seconds (assuming you're using an IAS and proper buffs) to 3 foes in front of you. Over the course of 5 seconds that's at least 400 damage.

Also I'm not talking about the Dervish being able to deal hueg amounts of Scythe damage along with the AoE. Not like 500 damage from enchantments plus 100 from your scythe. Like 500 damage including the scythe damage. So more like you're dealing 500 to 3 foes and something like 200 to the rest. I dunno. This idea as of now is just an idea. I don't even have ideas for skills yet. But in any event the idea of huge damage in one instant rather than big damage attack spamming would at least differentiate the Dervish from everyone else.

Oh and when is something not destroying DoA with minimal effort?

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

If enchantment Juggling was made viable, then mysticism would be reworked so it actually covered the cost of the enchants and the recharge on the enchantments would be dramatically reduced. All that would happen if your short recharge enchantments get stripped would be providing more fuel for you to recast them again. If it were not susceptible to anti melee then what would be able to stop it/a team from steam rolling everything with 100 aoe dps each that you suggested?

Yea but generally if your enchantment get stripped it's not just stripped. Generally after a big strip you now have degen, some conditions and lots of lost health. Then you have to wait 5 seconds to recast all these enchants...which will be getting stripped as you begin to recast them. Then you can get dazed which makes it even more difficult to recast. That in addition with general anti melee balances the shit out quite nicely if you ask me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

Buff energy management for mysticism for maintainable attacks and enchantment juggling, reduce the recharge offensive dervish enchants and rebalanced effects and damage. Make dervish attacks better synergize with enchant stripping. The end result should be 200-300 AoE dmg/5seconds+conditions, around 100 single/three target dps.

I could live with that.

reaper with no name · Aug 08, 2010, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Actually, because of Asuran Scan, scythes deal almost twice as much damage to the primary target as they do to the adjacent targets.

I think what he's saying dervishes should have is exactly what I suggested when I listed what would be necessary for enchantment juggling to be useful (powerful, spammable enchantments fueled by a buffed mysticism that are removed by attacks powerful enough to actually justify the time taken to do all of that). The problem is, again, Anet is unlikely to make those kinds of changes, because they'd just look at the numbers and say "too overpowered" without actually comparing it to what attack skill spam currently does.

Of course, if they actually did compare it to attack skill spam they would then say "Holy RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing crap attack skill spam is overpowered! We need to nerf it!"

And then scythes would be useless.

NerfHerder · Aug 08, 2010, 06:56 AM // 06:56

I think balthazaar meant PBAoE when he said AoE. Im all for making enchantment juggling viable. But for it to be even considered viable,(as has been said before)PBAoEs would need a omgwinbutton buff. After cast delays would need to be removed, casting time would need to be removed or something rediculous like 1/8 of a second, would all need to cost 5e, last a maximum of 5 seconds, have a maximum recharge of 5 seconds, and deal 100 holy damage when cast and when it ends. If you had 5 skills like that on your bar, you might be able to compete with an attack spammer.

Right now I would be happy if they just tied AoHM to Mysticism, reduced the recharge or increased the duration of Heart of Fury and dropped the energy to 5, and gave Mysticism a buff.

Even though I promote AoHM being tied to Mysticism, keep in mind an Assassin w/o AoHM can do almost the same amount of damage a Derv with Zealous Vow and AoHM can do and still use Wounding Strike.

I was thinking a change to Mysticism to read like this:

"Whenever you cast a Dervish Enchantment and when it ends, you gain 1 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism."

Or

"Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 1 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism. Energy gain is doubled when a Dervish Enchantment ends."

Or

"Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 1 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism. You gain 1 energy with each successful strike."

To me the health isnt important, Zealous Vow builds prove that energy is whats matters.

reaper with no name · Aug 08, 2010, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Even though I promote AoHM being tied to Mysticism, keep in mind an Assassin w/o AoHM can do almost the same amount of damage a Derv with Zealous Vow and AoHM can do and still use Wounding Strike.

This encouraged me to do some math. I used Reaper's Sweep instead of Wounding Strike (because it helps the sin more).

The dervish has a 2-5 dps advantage in this hypothetical scenario (I assumed that both sides had their last PvE slot unused, since any benefits that could be gained from that would be equal on both). Negligible. Meanwhile, the sin still gets the armor of critical agility and synergy with physical buffs.

So (and I hate to say this), AoHM alone may not be the magic bullet we've been looking for. Strictly speaking, making it primary dervish only would give the dervish a niche in the game (because dervishes would be the best scythe user that can use SY), but it isn't exactly an ideal solution.

So, once again, we have to go to another thing the dervish really needs: Better IAS! Make HoF maintainable!

*scurries off to redo the math with this new information*

And making HoF maintainable along with making AoHM dervish-only would give the dervish a 5-13 dps advantage over the scythe sin. Make of that what you will.

(And in case you're wondering why it's not one number, I have to consider whether attack skills are being spammed as they recharge in the middle of autoattacks or not).

belshazaarswrath · Aug 08, 2010, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

After cast delays would need to be removed, casting time would need to be removed or something rediculous like 1/8 of a second, would all need to cost 5e, last a maximum of 5 seconds, have a maximum recharge of 5 seconds, and deal 100 holy damage when cast and when it ends. If you had 5 skills like that on your bar, you might be able to compete with an attack spammer.

Not all of them would have to be holy damage (that'd be stale...). Maybe like 140 earth damage? 120 cold damage? Diversity is interesting. Really it's all just up close nukes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Right now I would be happy if they just tied AoHM to Mysticism, reduced the recharge or increased the duration of Heart of Fury and dropped the energy to 5, and gave Mysticism a buff.

That's just basic stuff they need to do. Also taking off the holy damage from AoHM would be cool...

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

"Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 1 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism. Energy gain is doubled when a Dervish Enchantment ends."

Or

"Whenever an Enchantment ends, you gain 1 Health for each rank of Mysticism and 1 Energy for every 3 ranks of Mysticism. You gain 1 energy with each successful strike."

Ends on you correct? Whenever an enchantment ends in general is better than Soul Reapings original functionality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

To me the health isnt important, Zealous Vow builds prove that energy is whats matters.

Disagree. Energy might be more important but giving back health is a big booster for a class with 70 armor.