Curse

Skyknight · Oct 17, 2011, 07:31 PM // 19:31

{still grumbling about being told in the Assassin that at least in Normal, PvE melee is only about DpS. Where's the game where even popcorn enemies demand forethought, not just bosses...?}

While looking through the Dervish and Elementalist elites (is it bad that I'm starting to settle on this mix because the tone suggested by the names of the skills all set together in this dyad is the one I felt most consonant with? Especially since I know there isn't as much of an RP constituency in GW as there is in WoW or EQ2...), I began looking for ways to build around Grenth's Grasp (I think the condition translation was what appealed to me). Cue the smirk when I saw Armor of Sanctity and Reap Impurities...

--*Grenth's Grasp
--Armor of Sanctity/Attacker's Insight
--Balthazar's Rage
--Aura Slicer
--Reap Impurities
--Irresistible Sweep/Eremite's Attack/Pious Assault
--Steam
--Resurrection Signet

Idea: At baseline, pile on the conditions, and pick on those conditions with Reap Impurities whenever you get enough adrenaline (and you won't remove the "wrong" condition). It's worth noting that Steam is meant to be cast RIGHT after Balthazar's Rage, since the burning doesn't last that long (now whether I'd need Mysticism's floor to be 4 or 12...). Slot six is basically the attacks I found that (a) use energy rather than adrenaline (to be able to take advantage of Grenth's Grasp when adrenaline is on the short side, or needs to be conserved for Aura Slicer), and (b) consume an enchantment (why wait the 20 seconds for Balthazar's Rage to finalize on its own? {worried} Or would that result in no adrenaline...? I only have Factions at the moment, I'll confess. I'm trying for heavy advance planning here.). Irresistible Sweep is the most appealing-looking, but I'll listen to anything in favor of the other two, at least.

Other concerns:

--While Armor of Sanctity does a nice job of making those conditions matter even more, there's the problem that I'd wind up having to divvy points among FIVE schools, and I'm already a bit antsy about four. Hence Attacker's Insight as a possible alternate, to avoid having to dip into Earth Prayers.
--Ideal order of conditions. I figure some conditions are...more acceptable, for lack of a better way of putting it...for removal by Reap Impurities. And then there's anything shoved over by Grenth's Grasp...I can already hear the calls for using Wounding Strike instead, admittedly, but Grenth's Grasp at least saves the Monk or Mesmer having to focus on your conditions. Not to mention Aura Slicer itself supplies bleeding.
--Is there a place for a second Water Mastery skill (probably either Conjure Frost or Slippery Ground)? Unfortunately, I'm worried that I'd have to remove Resurrection Signet, and I think I remember something about that being considered an absolute no-no, whether PvE or PvP.
--Likewise, if an energy management skill is needed (I'm only finding four that seem to fit: Eremite's Zeal, Zealous Renewal, Radiant Scythe, Zealous Sweep).

LifeInfusion · Oct 17, 2011, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Why use steam when you can use dust cloak with Pious Assault?

Why no IAS (Pious Fury/Heart of Fury)?

Skyknight · Oct 18, 2011, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Dust Cloak creates an earth brand, which interferes with Grenth's Grasp's requirement of a cold brand (we ARE anticipating all eight slots being of equal importance, yes? Or is that somehow NOT the ideal?). As for attack speed...where am I going to PUT it? Either I lose the energy-requiring attack (crimping how often Grenth's Grasp can activate, namely if I'm below 4 adrenaline), or I seem to lose how many different conditions I can land, leaving the targets that much stronger at any given moment; suffice to say that what I'm trying to come up with is melee shutdown (don't like hanging back from the front, don't like relying just on damage, don't want to force hirelings/heroes/other players to do the work for me if I don't have to...). {wonders if his old Warrior/Ritualist idea involving Earthbind and several hammer knockdowns would pass muster...}

{sigh} Why...why is it that whichever MMO I look at, I get the impression people are giving DpS far more importance than anything could ever hope to deserve? Even an infinite amount of power and speed won't save you from getting outsmarted/outflanked, regardless of game rules (or milieu)...

EDIT: One other thing that puts Steam above Dust Cloak--The blindness lasts quite a bit longer (Dust Cloak is 1-3-4; Steam is 5-9-10).

itiscurtains · Oct 18, 2011, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyknight

{sigh} Why...why is it that whichever MMO I look at, I get the impression people are giving DpS far more importance than anything could ever hope to deserve? Even an infinite amount of power and speed won't save you from getting outsmarted/outflanked, regardless of game rules (or milieu)...

But neither will an infinite amount of conditions.
Ultimately, condition stacking in PvE is rather fruitless (notable exception being FD mesmers). If you're going for melee shutdown, all you really need is a source of weakness and/or blind, both of which are more easily slotted on hero bars. There are also certain conditions that really just aren't worth bringing into PvE, cripple being one of those. Grenth's Grasp is a PvP skill - snares and condition transferring aren't nearly as important in PvE where monsters are idiots and conditions are easily mopped up by skills like MBaS and Foul Feast.
It's not a bad idea to take a couple of conditions on your bar, but they should be secondary to your main attacks. A common combination is Staggering Force and Wearying Strike for cracked armor + deepwound. If you feel you must have blindness, take Sneak Attack or, as has been mentioned, Dust Cloak (just strip it as soon as you put it up - AoE blindness is better than Steam's single target blindness).
Do, however, keep Reap Impurities. It's a nice skill and is pretty much stapled to most of my scythe bars.

Skyknight · Oct 18, 2011, 06:59 PM // 18:59

{scowls} Someone remind the programmers to NOT make AI goons mere gulls, then...(Never mind that my ideal is a chart that works perfectly well for both PvE AND PvP; omniadaptation, you might say. Or would that be the Earthbind warrior?)

Never mind that I have no intention of forcing heroes to do the work for me. This is about competence and ingenuity, not merely efficiency. (I know I'd like to think the Balthazar's Rage/Steam/Irresistible Sweep & Co. combo was ingenious on my part. Especially since this was BEFORE I found the commentary on the wiki scorning the Rage...Maybe this is the Rage's chance for redemption...)

I'd still like at least one more condition past Weakness/Blind, if only to make sure Reap Impurities DOESN'T wind up taking that away, especially if the initial targets would still be around afterwards...Obviously other than the burning from Balthazar's Rage, since the blindness will be outlasting it by quite a bit. (Bleeding or Cracked Armor from Aura Slicer?)

(Odd that I keep thinking it was *weakness* more valued for PvP, and *crippling* more valued for PvE. Of course, the main thing I remembered weakness for was the attribute reduction; I keep forgetting about the damage reduction!)

Or maybe the proper target for a perfect hybrid of melee damage and shutdown is that Earthbind-using Warrior/Ritualist I mentioned (once one gets around how much energy Earthbind NEEDS...). {fret, fret, fret}

itiscurtains · Oct 18, 2011, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Warriors have Stonefist Insignias and therefore don't need Earthbind. Unless, of course, you're trying to knockdown kd-resistant foes.
Also, if you just want to spam RI at will, taking Withering Aura on a hero will allow you to do so. But then your build wouldn't be entirely self-sufficient.

The Drunkard · Oct 18, 2011, 10:08 PM // 22:08

If you want blind on the bar, you should look into sneak attack- steam on a melee bar seems rather silly.

Skyknight · Oct 18, 2011, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Just to be sure...Why are we bringing heroes into this? I'd like a failsafe in case there are enough human players to utterly preclude a place for heroes (or hirelings). Never mind that relying on heroes/hirelings doesn't strike me as a good idea...

Not that I get how Steam is silly. I can understand if I were suggesting something like Maelstrom (putting aside energy cost and exhaustion)...{sigh} I'd just like acknowledgement of a place for melees having Elementalist as their secondary BESIDES the Conjures. Seems like an unwillingness to take the dyad to full potential...(Well, that, and I'd like to find a way to prove that the weak CAN defeat the strong on a consistent basis--that the very concepts of strength and weakness are meaningless, compared to cunning.) I hardly think a melee's ONLY legitimate duty is pure DpS (hence my attempt at a perfect hybridization of melee damage and shutdown. If nothing else, I've a point to prove. Not that it's likely to happen any time soon, not having any way to connect the computer that has Boot Camp on it to the internet in the foreseeable future.)

Other note: I don't expect to be spamming ANYTHING, nor do I desire to ever do so. I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to be emulating a bot...Where's the cunning or forethought in spamming?

itiscurtains · Oct 18, 2011, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyknight

Just to be sure...Why are we bringing heroes into this? I'd like a failsafe in case there are enough human players to utterly preclude a place for heroes (or hirelings). Never mind that relying on heroes/hirelings doesn't strike me as a good idea...

There's no real reason not to bring heroes into the equation. Given the current state of the game, 7h parties are pretty much assumed. Creating a single self-sufficient player build is often unnecessary when you have the option to fully customize all 64 skill slots of your party. However, I have my builds that I run with only with heroes and then I have the builds that I run with human groups. The builds I run when in pugs are generally a bit more balanced and utilitarian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyknight

Seems like an unwillingness to take the dyad to full potential...(Well, that, and I'd like to find a way to prove that the weak CAN defeat the strong on a consistent basis--that the very concepts of strength and weakness are meaningless, compared to cunning.) I hardly think a melee's ONLY legitimate duty is pure DpS (hence my attempt at a perfect hybridization of melee damage and shutdown.

If you don't want to go full dps, there are definitely options out there. An Avatar of Dwayna build with "SY!" will provide substantial party healing + damage reduction. Reaper's Sweep can be used to knocklock up to three foes at a time (I'm not actually sure how useful Reaper's Sweep is in PvE - I imagine it's like a worse Earthshaker).
Obviously, you can play as far outside the box as you'd like, and, in fact, GW encourages such versatility (to a certain extent). To be sure, I strongly endorse this form of trial and error and buildcrafting over simply copy-pasting pvx codes.