Curse

Plutoman · May 09, 2011, 05:02 PM // 17:02

I do believe his point was that he's wanted the debate to end a long time ago and for you two to just agree to run your own choices. Hence why he's annoyed that it was brought back up in another thread.

Also, @ the Fury, I pull the mob back into the cave leading into city. Wrap them around the corner and spike them, and flee to the gate if needed. At least in HM when I did it, they lost aggro at just before the gate.

LexTalionis · May 10, 2011, 09:55 AM // 09:55

I've been playing around with the Dwayna main healer that I used for my Tombs run and I'm quite taken with it. Arenanet seems to have given us a completely viable alternative to monks and ritualists, but I wonder how long it will take for the general public to accept it (It took them 3 years to accept Ritualists as healers, and even nowadays people still prefer Monks)

This seems to work particularly well - it still has a few AI issues, the AI keeps running into range for Dust Cloak (I've tested with spears, she still moves), but it's just very very solid.

Disadvantages of a Dwayna Healer:

Your main heals are on long cooldowns or conditional, the best one (Signet of Pious Light) is about equivalent to a Holy Burst, but can only be used every 5 seconds.
Not particularly flexible. It's not easy to fit other class skills on a Dwayna healer bar because of space and attribute constraints.
No non-self Hex nor condition removal. Dwayna healers are incapable of removing hexes nor conditions from other party members with Dervish skills alone (excepting Avatar of Melandru, which defeats the point). No Dervish resurrection skills either. (Heroes can't use Eternal Aura)
Thanks to Hero AI quirks, putting on Dust Cloak or other PBAoE effects will make the Dervish run into close proximity of enemies. Dwayna healers are very resilient, but not invincible. This being said, she tanked every single Grawl next to Fozzy for a good 2 minutes with the aid of an ER Prot hero, so it's something you can work around.
You may need to micro on the run. There's only one enchantment I know of that Dervishes will autocast out of combat - Faithful Intervention (20 second cooldown). If you need to speed up the rate of healing, it might be necessary to click every single flash enchantment you can on her bar.

Advantages of the Dwayna Healer

Can do minor AoE damage and effects - Dust Cloak does small amounts of Earth damage, but ends up practically blinding everything around you for 4 out of 6 seconds if you tear it down fast enough. This is very good damage prevention.
Has 85+ base armor (Thanks to Mysticism). Monks have 60. Incredibly survivable thanks to very very strong self-healing.
Extremely interrupt resilient. Flash Enchantments can't be interrupted. If using Pious Concentration, not only can't you be interrupted, trying to will trigger an AoE heal and a teardown effect as long as you have enchantments up. Heck, she's even partially resistant to knockdown.
-Extremely- hex resilient. Thanks to Avatar of Dwayna, Hexes are by and large completely irrelevant. Scourge Healing, Scourge Enchantment, Backfire, Arcane Conundrum/Frustration, Migraine, etc etc. I'm not quite sure when the hex is removed, but it *seems* to me that they get removed before the enchantment is even cast, meaning it counters Arcane Languor, Backfire, and Diversion (I may be wrong on this).
Very strong Energy Management: Especially if you use Meditation.
Heals all allies in earshot. Super Minion support. Nuff said.
Very very few counters. It's difficult to think of things that will directly counter Avatar of Dwayna healers. Signet of Humility, Well of the Profane perhaps, and huge single target spike damage. Enchantment stripping is nearly pointless, if you get hit by Rend Enchantments, you just get healed for a ridiculous amount and put up a few more enchantments within seconds.

Even if you don't plan to go full Dwaynaway with the Soul Twisting, it's worth trying an AoD pure healer if you haven't before. I can guarantee that it will be interesting. (watch out for her aggro though!)

Lodar Aric · May 10, 2011, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Thinking of trying this myself, but on my necro primary running either OOU or AOTL. I haven't used a AOD healer before though I have seen groups using them more (but still rare).

Do you think a Necro MM will work ok with this setup? And if So do you think it could be worthwhile running curses on the BIP or another character? For Barbs, Mark of Pain etc? Especially with 20 minions.

LexTalionis · May 10, 2011, 12:03 PM // 12:03

@Lodar:

I see no reason why it wouldn't work, Dwayna healers almost seem built for Minion Masters as damage will be spread out amongst your minions and Dwayna healers will heal of them simultaneously.

Frankly, if you have good Energy management, you don't need Blood is Power at all. It'll help if you have energy issues, but it's viable to just have someone use Blood Ritual and go with Order of Undeath instead. I use Blood is Power because I'm a Mesmer that runs 0 Inspiration Magic and I use it to fuel the other mesmers in Dwaynaway, otherwise I'd use OOU all the time.

I wouldn't recommend Aura of the Lich, it doesn't have any synergy with Dwayna healers. Order of Undeath with Bone Fiends (they attack faster) is far superior.

I haven't tried it with Mark of Pain but there's no reason why it wouldn't work, I generally avoid Mark of Pain only because I hate the recast and scatter, but it's really strong in its own right. Go take a look at Kunder's build, I think he posted it earlier in this thread - it's a pretty good example of OOU+Dwayna abuse.

edit: Energy might be a problem since OOU is expensive, so you might try this on your main:

Necromancer:
12+1+3 Death Magic
12+1 Soul Reaping
3+1 Blood (optional)

Order of Undeath|Animate Bone Fiend|Masochism|Blood of the Master| Ebon Standard of Honor| 2 more slots

2 slots could be GOLE+other skill (I really like Dark Bond!) or Signet of Agony + Angorodon's Gaze. It's just what I'd use if I played my necromancer (poor guy, never touch him these days)

heavenlight · May 10, 2011, 05:27 PM // 17:27

@Lex, I'm just theory-crafting here but in terms of defense, the obvious synergy I see in your build is the fact that Dwayna heals spirits that loses health and so make your defensive rit spirits more durable. Going along the same line, have you tried exploiting Agony and Rejuvenation with Dwayna? Agony in particular can deal sick dps to large group of foes.

Lodar Aric · May 10, 2011, 05:39 PM // 17:39

My Necro is a newish char, just made 20 but still early in the campaigns so don't have full access to all the heroes yet but it seems to be working well so far. Currrently running OOU on both myself and the necro hero, which seems to be working fine and doesn't seem to have any probs in raising a large army.

Seems to be working well so far, I really like the synergy between the fiends and the Dwayna healers, means I don't really need to use BOTM much or use Vamp horrors to cover the OOU health loss.

Looking forward to getting more heroes which should make it even better.

LexTalionis · May 10, 2011, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavenlight

@Lex, I'm just theory-crafting here but in terms of defense, the obvious synergy I see in your build is the fact that Dwayna heals spirits that loses health and so make your defensive rit spirits more durable. Going along the same line, have you tried exploiting Agony and Rejuvenation with Dwayna? Agony in particular can deal sick dps to large group of foes.

Actually, I don't believe Dwaynaway heals spirits, I'm afraid. Would be absolutely freaking retarded if it did.

Rejuvenation and Recovery aren't too bad though, because they're passive healing that happen even if you get knocked down and stuff (although latent Dwayna Healing would also sort of fall into this category - you can heal with Avatar of Dwayna and enchantment expiry even if you're KDed)

Agony isn't generally worth it in my experience, it does about 10 DPS per enemy, which is equal to the DoT degen from Cry of Pain. Destruction is a bit more charming if I wanted to use that.

@Lodar: Well, get Ebon Vanguard Standard of Honor ASAP. Combined with bone fiends and Order of Undeath, bosses will die -ridiculously- quickly.

heavenlight · May 10, 2011, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Dang, I got misled since spirits count as allies and the description says heal allies instead of heal non-spirit allies.

If it can be kept alive, Agony deals much more dps than Bloodsong as long as there are at least two foes. But yea, since spirits don't get healed, agony is crappy because it dies way too quickly.

LexTalionis · May 10, 2011, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Small comparision for the interested:

Dwayna healer can easily sustain the Fiends and the Necromancer through Order of Undeath.

Necromancer with 10 Bone Fiends at 15 Death Magic + 2 from Masochism, 10 Curses for Barbs. Maxed Vanguard Title (Energy assisted by Blood is Power from second Necro). Damage would be higher with Mark of Pain and Splinter Weapon.

Spirits = Every single nonelite communing spirit + SoS + SoGM + Bloodsong + Painful Bond.

Note that Bone Fiend damage is slightly armor dependant. Of course, you could just bring both.

Brought Order of Undeath out for a jog in Twin Serpent Lakes HM, laughed at the White Mantle healers trying to outheal 300+ DPS.

hunter · May 10, 2011, 08:48 PM // 20:48

I have played with it myself.

IT does good dmg, until you face mob AoEs, and its a pain trying to get it rolling, ie having enough minions to do considerable dmg.

And of course it slows you down quite a bit. Its strong, but kinda boring having to wait for minions to catch up

LexTalionis · May 10, 2011, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Spent a few hours gathering data, didn't want to start a new thread for this, so I'll post it here.

Having heroes run into point blank range of the enemy is entirely preventable if you use Passive mode on Dwayna healers. The tradeoff is that they won't use AoEs offensively (they will still use some defensively) and will prefer to kite. They will also not prioritise interruption with Lyssa's Aura, but this may be a small tradeoff.

Caveats:
Hex removal applies AFTER effects like Backfire, so effects like Visions of Regret, Backfire and Arcane Languor are semi-effective.

Dervish Passive AI Behaviour List
(?) indicates skills that have no useful effect in Passive Mode whatsoever.

Will maintain out of combat:
Faithful Intervention
Will cast as long as in combat, and not enchanted with it:
Meditation (highest priority)
Veil of Thorns
Shield of Force
Whirling Charge
Fleeting Stability
Conviction (self condition removal)
Sand Shards (?)
Mystic Corruption (Useful in areas with Disease)
Intimidating Aura
Attacker's Insight
Harrier's Grasp (self condition removal)
Lyssa's Haste (low priority)
Pious Concentration (stance)
Pious Fury (stance)
Pious Haste (stance)
Will cast when damaged:
Vital Boon
Will cast if foe is in range of AoE:
Balthazar's Rage
Grenth's Aura
Aura of Thorns
Grenth's Fingers
Will NOT specifically cast if affected by a condition:
Grenth's Fingers
Will cast if foe is nearby and self is low on Energy:
Eremite's Zeal
Will cast only when attacked:
Dust Cloak
Mirage Cloak
Staggering Force (?)
Will not autocast at all in passive:
Mystic Vigor
Watchful Intervention
Rending Aura
Zealous Renewal

Based on these data, I've updated my default Dwayna pure healer and minion support build:

It's still modifiable, but the rate of healing is respectable and 85 Armor rating with over 30% extra damage reduction from magic is quite nice. If you don't require Pious Concentration, you may sub in Infuse Health or Dwayna's Touch (warning, this spell is about as reliable as Healing touch is on Alesia) or any other utility skill of choice.

LexTalionis · May 11, 2011, 09:01 AM // 09:01

I have to apologise - I realise that I'm pretty much talking to myself recently. Unfortunately, thanks to some intensive AI configuring, it is my great displeasure to announce that I frankly believe I've come up with a build that is going to get Dwayna healing nerfed into the ground.

Usage: Set hero to Passive.

I can't really explain why it's so ridiculous, it's something that more or less has to be experienced to be believed, but to be perfectly honest, I don't believe it's anywhere -near- fair nor balanced. I estimate it's on a scale of broken of about 0.6 Imbagons (I don't even want to imagine what it'll do with an Imbagon) and my only consolation is that perhaps ArenaNet doesn't read these forums, PvXWiki seems to hate any form of defensive innovation, people around here think I'm bonkers with my obsession with Dwayna healing, and that this isn't going to be so hot in Elite areas with Exhaustion environmental effects or against Mallyx/Dhuum.

Edit: Thankfully, it's not as broken as I thought: Note that I currently run 3 Aegis Chains, which may be one reason why the AI is using this so well. For the AI to use Release properly, the AoD healer requires a Monk Enchantment or the AI won't use Release (You'll have to Micro it). Dwayna's Sorrow works very well though.

EFGJack · May 11, 2011, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Release enchantments only works on Monk Enchantments. Unless it's glitched. You may want to double check that

Edit: brainfart, ignore this message. :> As it heals for 250 something per release even without the bonus from the spell itself. Nice thinking.

Fierabras · May 11, 2011, 09:26 AM // 09:26

With a 20% ench mod or w/o?

LexTalionis · May 11, 2011, 09:34 AM // 09:34

@EFGJack: Nah, you're partially right, but for the wrong reasons. (AI)

Enchanting mod doesn't matter. Use any weapon you want (I recommend staff or wand and shield) Just make sure you have 1-3 copies of Aegis in your party and it's like activating demigod mode. Melonni is nearly indestructible.

Edit: I've just rebound Release Enchantments to an "emergency" hotkey.
Any time I think things are going badly, hit it.

The Josip · May 11, 2011, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

PvXWiki seems to hate any form of defensive innovation

Heh, most people lack creativity and reject prototypes. On the other hand, it's why I liked GW.

I've been using Dwayna healer now and there, mostly the variation I saw in Jaydra's screenshot (with Blood Ritual). Didn't have time to go into redesigning it but will try your version too. The reason I like Dwayna healer is that it's refreshing to finally have Dervish in my team, and because it's great build for heroes - they know how to use it well without micromanagement (although it might require some out of combat, if degen is threatening). On the other hand E/Mo is useful when you're constantly prot spiriting yourself, but without micromanagement it's IMO overrated (except in, say, 4-man areas). Heroes can't pre-prot (which is why Shelter is good), and it consists of single target heals. This is bad for me as I tend to avoid micromanagement as much as possible (including flagging), so the most dangerous foes are those with AoE's of various kinds. E/Mo is also vulnerable against enchantment stripping while Dwayna is resistant to pretty much everything. Very important thing is that it heals all allies, although I don't use minions as they're ugly (and I'm a mesmer).

I'll try your variation now and see if it works better for me than Blood Ritual one (I use BiP too in the team.. love these energy boost for 4 of my mesmers).

ps: In theory, I don't see how your version is better. Release Enchantments is ok but these enchantments have 10sec recharge anyway (mostly). They expire by themselves in few seconds. The only thing you achieve is removing Meditation. Increasing attributes doesn't really give much, since effects are conditional on passive (Whirling), or otherwise not needed since not attacking in melee. Pious works but there's no Imbue instead.
Haven't tried with Aegis though but still the only thing that happens with it is that hero triggers healers 1-2 seconds faster no?
Actually if I got it right hero will only cast Release with Monk enchantment on, so with Aegis that's.. 2x every 30seconds? I'm theorizing but doesn't seem work a skill slot. Perhaps with other monk spells but unfortunately I don't even use Dwayna's Sorrow (no MM).

distilledwill · May 11, 2011, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

I love a bit of innovation and so will totally be trying this once my internet connection is back up. I commend you on your imagination.

LexTalionis · May 11, 2011, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Re: Release Enchantments

It's actually more than that - it's largely an AI build that mostly exploits only the enchantments that Hero Dervishes autocast as long as any foe is engaged, meaning they'll never be lazy with them (unlike Cloak of Dust, which is fantastic in theory and less great in practice because she won't cast it unless she's being attacked). The healing output is extremely ridiculous, making my UA monk green with envy, it has zero energy issues even without BiP and it can AoE heal on command, unlike the normal Dwayna healer (which has to wait anywhere from 3-10 seconds to actually heal, by which time people are sometimes dead).

I've been running this for half the day and the AI uses it -excellently- exactly when the heal is needed - as long as she has a Monk Enchantment on her. The Flash Enchantments are mostly short duration, but they don't often expire when you need them to (there should almost always be one off recharge anyway), so the main issue is getting the rate of healing up. It's viable to run without it, but your anti-pressure has to be strong. Like I said, it's more or less something you actually have to run to understand how strong it is (preferably with minions). Imbue Health is completely unnecessary.

edit: If you don't run multiple copies of Aegis and don't want to micro or use Release, it's viable too - the AI list is on one of the above posts, but you can use one of the following enchantments to substitute for Release: Sand Shards (not recommended) Shield of Force (good, I recommend this) and Mystic Corruption (somewhat good, but long duration). Using other Flash Enchantments will work, but they usually have pretty long durations or are AI conditional, which harms the heal rate. I've tried both and I'm pretty taken with Release though. There's times when you -really- need an active heal as opposed to one 3 seconds in the future.

Note that if you're going to micro the heal, you can use Contemplation of Purity instead for a faster spike heal that isn't a spell.

I'm using the following team build:

Which includes 3 copies of Aegis, this might be why I feel invincible at times. (Though not invincible enough to handle 4 groups and two bosses at once without deaths, haha. Didn't wipe, though.)

The Josip · May 11, 2011, 11:46 AM // 11:46

In all honestly, you use a LOT of defense which is why you're so invincible. I'm not sure whether your offense suffers or not. You use: minions, spirits, PI, ST-Shelter/Union, Dwayna healer, 3x Aegis, 2x Shield of Absorption, 2x Convert Hexes, two sets of interrupts on mesmers, few paragon shouts, rt heal. Plus your own Panic bar.

Btw you kinda micro Release and OoU?
Make sure you watch that PI mesmer a bit. With so many interrupts, practical usefulness might be much lower than theoretical.

LexTalionis · May 11, 2011, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Simply put: I usually run two AoD melee splinters. This version of AoD does more and more efficient healing than both combined, largely due to AI issues and a higher enchantment overturn rate. I play highly defensive builds and if I'm not impressed by a build variation, I generally don't post about it (which would be over 95% of them - if you've ever seen my screenshots, you'd probably notice I never quite use the same build twice except ironically, on my main bar and possibly the SoS ritualist). Like I said, if you're skeptical, just try it. I don't ever do theory without practical experimentation.

I don't usually micro at all because I'm lazy. This being said, Release is pretty easy to micro if I just treat it like another hotkey as it requires no target selection. But it's completely unnecessary to micro with 2-3 Aegis copies

PI isn't particularly practical, I just occasionally forget to swap it out when I'm changing between builds to test the AI.