Curse

unholy guardian · May 04, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

I was thinking, if its our job as an assassin to pop in and out, without getting attacked and such, then what is the point of bringing watch yourself when you have warrior as a secondary, and the armor that gives 15 when attacking. I mean the two together gives a massive 105 al when you attack continually, wouldnt that be better than kiting?

Just kinda confusing, since they make our only heal pretty much now involve attacking, and armor to be used while attacking, are they trying to get us to try to tank or what?

MasterDinadan · May 04, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

One could make the same argument and say they obviously aren't trying to make us tank BECAUSE they gave us all these skills to escape from the enemy.

The simplest explanation is that the variety of skills allows us to choose how to play.

Even if one way of playing is better than another, they don't force it upon us.

Anyway, Watch Yourself is not even an assassin skill, so you can't possibly make the claim that it's meant to support the assassin's playstyle. That's like saying the fact that Elementalists have firestorm encourages W/E to AoE nuke... Well no... just because they CAN doesn't mean they SHOULD

unholy guardian · May 04, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

well your right, but it is quite spammable with assassin, which makes a lot of them like it, and its a pretty obvious pick

fallot · May 05, 2006, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by unholy guardian

I was thinking, if its our job as an assassin to pop in and out, without getting attacked and such, then what is the point of bringing watch yourself when you have warrior as a secondary, and the armor that gives 15 when attacking.

Because (talking from a PvE perspective) you job isn't to pop in and out. Its to hit things. Romantic notions of stealthy ninjas are all good, but you have to be realistic in that a melee class is nearly useless when its not attacking. Additionally, Watch Yourself! helps your team too.

Tromador · May 05, 2006, 08:19 AM // 08:19

The assassin isn't a melee class. That's just silly. Assassins who stay in melee and fight get deleted quickly and often. As has been frequently discussed, their armour is no better than a ranger. If you need more armour, maybe you're in the wrong profession.

Their job, especially in PvE is to get to the back rank of the enemy mobs and remove the casters. Especially now the mobs have learned to spike with such combos as conjure nightmare and poison, it's even more important to take down the back rank. The assassin can do this, quickly, efficiently and without having to worry about either getting past the mob front line, nor if they are in range of his spells or arrows.

You may consider that it's a romantic notion of a stealthy ninja - maybe it is. This is a fantasy game though and the classes all fit romantic stereotypes. ANet designed it that way.

PvE (and PvP for that matter) groups are all about balanced groups with a variety of skills and professions. Bring warriors to tank, sit in melee and stand up to punishment. That's not the job of the assassin at all.

Snowman · May 05, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by unholy guardian

I then what is the point of bringing watch yourself when you have warrior as a secondary,

What is the point indeed?... dont take it if you dont understand it.

If your going to force yourself to use skills not meant for the class then dont take them!.. noone is forcing you :S

and when people say pop in and pop 'out'... they dont mean... disapear to the other end of the map.

all the getting 'out' bit entails is moving away from the enemy you've just attacked!.. (because if you hang around you will be targeted) there is nothing stopping you from kiting around your allies using 'watch yourself'..thatis if you insist on going warrior secondary and insist on using 'watch yourself'

Turbobusa · May 05, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Al boost is always good.
I agree that A's job is to kill casters, but when fighting an elementalist which attacks back, you'll need that boost.

fallot · May 05, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tromador

The assassin isn't a melee class. That's just silly. Assassins who stay in melee and fight get deleted quickly and often. As has been frequently discussed, their armour is no better than a ranger. If you need more armour, maybe you're in the wrong profession.

Staying in melee and fighting and tanking damage are two different things. If you are not hitting things I dont want you in my party, you are useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tromador

You may consider that it's a romantic notion of a stealthy ninja - maybe it is. This is a fantasy game though and the classes all fit romantic stereotypes. ANet designed it that way.

Like I said, be realistic, the Assassin is not exceptionally suited to taking out backline characters in PvE, almost any profession can accomplish the same thing. If this is the way Assassins are meant to be played, they are not an asset to any PvE party. There is no room for a character that does nothing for periods of time. Its not as if AI healing is so good that you need to quickly take out targets, so why field an Assassin ?

On the other hand, an Assassin using Watch Yourself! (or other similar skill) is an actual asset. He not only helps his entire team with a boost to AL, he has sufficient tanking abilities to be able to consistently deal damage in melee (with 0 investment in tactics I might add). While he cannot replace a warrior, he is at least consistently useful as a source of damage.

Tromador · May 05, 2006, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Man, if you're gonna quote me at least get my name right!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

why field an Assassin ?

While he cannot replace a warrior, he is at least consistently useful as a source of damage.

I don't see an assassin as a warrior replacement at all, I believe he has a different task altogether which isn't being "at least...a source of damage".

However, you've asked the question and I'd be interested in your own answer to it.

Why would *you* field an assassin? In particular, I'd be interested to understand where you think they add something unique (ie assassin abilities) to the group. After all, if it's just WY you want, another tank is surely a better bet.

fallot · May 05, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tromador

Man, if you're gonna quote me at least get my name right!

Sorry, fixed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tromador

Why would *you* field an assassin? In particular, I'd be interested to understand where you think they add something unique (ie assassin abilities) to the group. After all, if it's just WY you want, another tank is surely a better bet.

They add nothing unique. If I wanted to make the most effective party possible, Assassins would be the last profession I pick. This is coming from someone who has a PvE Assassin. They have some excellent skills, but those are suited more to PvP than PvE and can be put on a secondary Assassin to boot.

Tromador · May 05, 2006, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Then, Fallot, with the greatest of respect, the bottom line would seem to be that you simply don't like primary assassins - and I do see your take on the thing.

You (as I understand things) are seeing a character who pops in, spikes some damage, pops out again and has to have a little rest before rinsing and repeating. Or, alternatively, a character who must waste his skill bar on trying to be some other primary.

You may even be right.

This entire forum, however, appears to be full of builds to do just exactly that and the discussion is all along those lines, much about energy management and quick healing to reduce the downtime between spikes, but essentially, it's all about the best build for the in&out damage spike.

If that's wrong, then the design of the class is wrong. I think it's clear that the in&out is exactly what ANet had in mind when they were putting the Assassin Class together. If that's a flaw, it's a fundamental one, which won't be fixed by complex builds. If the Assassin must turn itself into a warrior to be useful, then play a warrior in the first place.

Still, it's early days. We have all the different stock builds that everyone knows well, IWAY, 55, SS/SV, Echo Nuker blah blah, however we had none of those a year ago. It's an interesting time for assassins (and I guess Ritualists) because all the builds and ideas are essentially untested. The combinations of available Assassin skills are numerous, without including complimentary skills from secondaries.

One of two things will happen, I guess and only time will tell. Right now we have a plague of assassins (yes I have one myself!) and it's hard to get into a group with one, if only for balance reasons. Once this resolves itself, either people will decide they do like to have an assassin in the group, or they won't. This will depend on the imagination of the community to produce good assassin builds and play methods and also for non-assassins getting used to how they fit into groups, we are after all, used to a front line and a back line. The assassin would seem to flit between both.

And maybe there's a thought somewhere in this morass. Without getting into the nitty gritty, of which attribute distribution is the first hurdle, the Assassin/Ranger may fit your needs. In... daggerspike... Out... Bowshots and rest. Repeat. *shrug*

And yes, I agree that any class can take down the backline one way or another. I continue to contend, however, that no class can single out and remove a soft backline target as quickly and singlehandedly as an Assassin.