Curse

S!carius · Jun 12, 2006, 11:29 AM // 11:29

I have found having an assassin in my group is very useful if they know how to play the class. I like to have an assassin as clean up. When the warriors take the aggro, normaly a few bad guys break away and head towards the casters. Normaly the number that break away is small, 1-3. That is were the assassin comes in. With the spiking ability of a assassin, he can take out those 1-3 guys quite quickly.

As for finding a good assassin, I don't really know how to do that now other than just asking them about their build. I have an assassin, and I think that i'm pretty good with the class, so I have an understanding of what types skill combos work well, and which ones don't. If you don't have an assassin, try criticizing their build and ask them why they choose a certain skill. A good play will be able to providing reasoning to why they choose one skill over another.

AlbinoChocobo · Jun 12, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Technically, for the most efficient PvE group you need warriors, necros and monks, so why should you let any of the other 5 classes join your group?

PvE isn't so hard that you need to stick exclusively to the best classes to win.

Because close to every assassin I've played with so far has ruined the game for the rest of the party : charge-tank-die, repeat a few times, insult monk, insult nukers, even insult necro who exploits his corpse. Next time, monk refuse assassin in group, repeat.

Most assassin players don't seem to quite realise they take more damage than a naked frenzying warrior. Now if the problem was only low overall dps due to hit and run tactics, well, as stated above, PvE is not that hard, so why not.

For the OP : I usually ask assassins if they are good tanks, it helps a little

Kriel Drache · Jun 12, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Like I said in another thread: "If you're going to play an Assassin in Guild Wars, act like an assassin in real life. Don't go through the bodyguards. Head straight for the target, end his/her/its life and get out before the enemy knows what happened.

WildmouseX · Jun 12, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellena

This is not intended as a flame or a trolling attempt, but I'll open my post by admiting that I am one of the people who generally pushes assassins out of my groups. I don't know what assassin brings to the table, except for a lot of bad players who drain valuable monking resources. I also don't know how to tell if an assassin is at least minimally compitent. Because of that I take other classes that I actually can predict. I now that it's hard to find a group for assassins, but until I'm able to be reasonably sure that the assassin I am adding will pull his weight, I'll keep inviting other classes ( or even henchmen).

so, here's what woud make me change my mind ( as well, I expect most other people's minds.):

1. a list of 1-3 things that assassisn do better than any one else or extremely valuable thigns that they do almost as well, and an explanation of why I'd want an assassin doing it instead of whatever classes normally do it.

2. the names of the cookie cutter builds ( PUGS are all about the cookie cutter :P ) that let assassins shine at the above task(s), as well as a basic summary how they work.

3. a few questions and answers to ask an assassin that whow whether or not they are any good. ( ie what is your build and how do you see your role in the group?)

anyhow, those 3 things would make it so that I know what I can expect from an assassin (and how to weed out the majority of complete incompitants) and thus fit them into my groups when appropriate.

i'm bout halfway through PvE with my assassin right now, and have just recently gotten into a rythem that works pretty well, so i'll try to answer your questions, the best i can.

1)a) they attack way faster then wars, often times i can pull off a three skill attack combo while the war next to me is doing his 1 hammer swing.

1)b) they stack conditions fast, depending on which skills you bring, you can stack bleeding for 10-15 second, cripple, posion and blind from that previous 3 skill combo, pluss a knock down or side step skill.

1)c) useing the various teleporting skills, their great for defending the groups back row. for when those enemies run around your front line fighters and start hammering on the monk, the ass is just 1 teleport away from saveing him.

2 and 3 kinda fall under the same explination, the biggest problem with assassins is that people try to tank with them like a war. the assassin is more of a hit and run class. where with a war you stand toe to toe and slowly deal your dmg and sit there and suck it back up; while you're there waiting to get your attacks off-- an ass has to run in, dump alot of fast attacks with stacking conditions and then get the hell out or dodge (i.e. side -step) like crazzy.

I'd say be warey of A/MO's, as their probly trying to keep up their health so they can tank, which does two bad things. 1) it encurages them to try and tank, which will generaly fail as the Ass doesn't have very much energy to keep throwing the energy inensive heal spells, and 2) too many self heal skills greatly reduces the attack skills their carrying, thussly killing their ability to do the one thing their designed to do well. - however conditions are a big threat to assassins, so if their useing condition removal's then they probly can handel the rest of their responsibilities. - with the lower armor and lower health Protective spirit would be another good spell for them to have, provided they don't rely on it for staying in fights too long

A/E's have a decent build that i've seen floating around that use's the el armor to double up on their arrmor class. but again, their useing it for tanking, and the el armor slows them way down, again killing the main strength of the character class.

i run a A/N, which has been performing well so far. i start out by putting return on our monk long b4 a fight: i then start a fight by useing demonic flesh to add 124 health for the time i'll be in the front line - then i throw mark of pain on my target. run in and crack out my three hit combo which regenerates energy in the first two hits. and with the third hit that deals +35 dmg to my target, and +35 to all surounding targets. - with mark of pain, that also deals (28*3) to all adjacent foes.- thussly spikeing the front line with min 119 dmg, not counting the added dmg on my main target - then i drop return and teleport back to my monk, reset return (in case i need to bug out of a fight fast) and pick a target that's already attacking an ally and pound on him till all my skills are recharged. -- useing pleuge touch to transfer my conditions whenever i get them.

A/N's have the same problems as A/Mo's do though, as it's very tempting to run your necro skils as blood to use for healing so you can tank.

just like with everything else, there are many ways to play an assassin - they have alot of side steping skills that allow them to avoid dmg (stealing health or inflicting conditions in the process), thussly allowing them to stay up in the front lines longer - however that takes alot of good timeing, and generaly is only going to be an effective stragity if they fill their bar with all Ass skills (3-4 attacks, 3 side steps, 1 self heal).

the biggest thing i'd say to ask for, is to see if they are set up to deal with dmg. vs avoiding it all together. if their set up to deal with it, then their trying to stay in fight's they shouldn't be in, therefore their most likely gunna be the first one dead; if their set up to avoid it, their probly gunna be the last one alive.

XvArchonvX · Jun 12, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by S!carius

I like to have an assassin as clean up. When the warriors take the aggro, normaly a few bad guys break away and head towards the casters. Normaly the number that break away is small, 1-3. That is were the assassin comes in. With the spiking ability of a assassin, he can take out those 1-3 guys quite quickly.

I think you touched on what the role of an assasin should really be. If all things go according to plan, here's how a good typical group might work:

Warrior(s) runs into group first, getting as many enemies to attack him as possible. (this is done by reaching the enemies when allies are just outside the aggro bubble.)

Monks come in and start healing

Ele/MM/SS/Ranger/other various ranged damage dealers come in and attack enemies taking advantage of clumps of enemies around the warrior with AoE skills when possible.

Assasin waits behind a bit first then attacks single targets that are attacking ranged allies as quickly as possible and joins warrior on the frontlines only when the battle starts to subside.

So, for any who may agree upon this, I suggest the following:

When you invite an assasin to your group, tell them to play cleanup. Explain to them to let the tank(s) go in first and that they should target enemies attacking people on the back lines.

Zecarn · Jun 12, 2006, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

I'd say be warey of A/MO's, as their probly trying to keep up their health so they can tank

I dissagree, i rarly see a/mo's anymore, and the ones i do see, stay in the back. i also run an effective a/mo using balth spirit, mending, prot. spirit, and breeze, the rest induce bleeding, d.stab, and other high dmg low cost skills.
But, with those few monk skills, i can stack a PS, an breeze on an ele who is getting hammered by 3 afflicted warriors, then go kill em. and yes, an assasin CAN NOT TANK! they are ment for the basic support of the casters, not as support for the tank.

One thing i do not like is an assasin who uses tele skills. why?

1) they put an assasin right in the middle of a fight.
2)monks now have to go crazy with healing because he was stupid enough to use it in the first place.
3)there is a possibility that you might agro enemies BACK to the casters when you return.

Now you might say that #3 is totally wrong, but i have had it happen.(why i dont use tele skills anymore).

P.S.--use nightstalker armor +15 armor while attacking. 70+15= 85 AL, more chance of survival.

WildmouseX · Jun 12, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

everyone runs their characters a little different, you're running the standard "tank wannabe" set up, as more of a support.. while this is a beter use of the skills to the class your playing, the majority of the numb nuts out there would try to use the same set-up for personal survibility.

by just takeing a quick glance at the info on your build, i see alot of problems that i would have with it. --maintaining mending and balth spirit is a huge drain on your very limited energy. throw your combo once and it's gunna take forever for it to recharge enough energy to do it again, with only 2 pips of recharge. if your chucking P.S. and breaze on your back line, you've pretty much blown your whole energy line in 2 casts: and while useing the golden lotus stirkes will fill it back up, your not dishing out much dmg with them - thussly requireing at least a dual attack to deal out anything big. leaveing you with at most 1 skill slot to dedicate to avoiding dmg, which are fairly slow to recharge - and yes i know your enchants do keep you in energy, however you have to be hit for them to kick in, thussly leaveing you vulnerible to takeing alot of dmg you have no business takeing.

i'll partialy agree with you on the teleports. teleporting into a front line fight, isn't generaly the brightest of idea's - unless you wait for everyone to agro on your tank. with my set-up i can wait for the tank to gather agro, pop in and deal 119 pt of dmg across the group he agroed, to soften up all of the guys he has to fight, and pop back out b4 any of them have a chance to change their agro over to me.

and even when one decides to follow me into the back row, which does happen a good portion of the time, i teleport out b4 i take any dmg and can go streight into droping them b4 they do any real dmg.

like i said, everyone plays their characters a little different, some people are better at watching their parties health and throwing heals where as others are better at watching the battle ground and picking the most vulernible targets.

but there is one thing that we all can agree on, assassins arn't tanks - and when you try to be one you either lose your ability to fight, or die. that's what you have to watch out for when bringing them into your group, and that was the main point i was conveying.

Maellus · Jun 13, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

"Energy Guzzling Assassins"--"Only 2 worthwhile Elites"

Seriously, you guys just arent experimenting enough.

You don't have to teleport around. If you are doing your job correctly you shouldn't have to teleport back to avoid the whole mob from coming down on top of you. You shouldnt be in a position where you aggro the whole mob. The only reasons for teleporting are to get the enemy support casters and to kill kiting.

There are pretty much 3 cookie-cutter assassin builds. AoD builds that zip in and out of battle after laying the smackdown on their target (cliche but a decent build). The barrage azn, (a very nice energy management build), that pretty much spams free barrages. I have also seen plenty of nice builds utilizing knockdown (shove, horns of the ox, etc.).

Many useful skills have gone ignored by many assassins. One of my favorites (a undervalued skill) being viper's defense. Basically it signals a retreat when you are in melee. You get hit, randomly teleport, your opponent is poisoned (and probably suffers other conditions), and you start kiting. That got me through Vizunah without dieing. It even has a 10 second recharge and you will sometime lose aggro with that particular opponent.

Everyone also seems to overvalue the critical strikes attribute. They claim it to be neccessary for energy management, but fail to realize that it loses its usefulness against the level 20+. Currently I am running a pve build (A/Mo) that does not have a single point in Critical Strikes (well it will have a fake point when i get the rune...). I put everything mainly into deadly arts and dagger mastery (and the left overs in healing prayers). I use Way of the empty palm, GPS, Repeating Strike, Exausting Assault, Death's Charge, Recall/Return, Orison of Healing, and a Res spell (usually the signet). Basically I use none of my energy on attack skills for 15+ seconds (im not usually there for that long). I save my energy for healing myself or the back line (after I return back and take out anyone troubling them). My targets are usually casters (the exausting assault). I also have a higher DoT than normal assassins because i use repeating strike so much. I'll probably end up fitting Viper's Defense and Impale in there somewhere.

I think it is funny that I am the only person that I have seen on this forum to successfully use the Deadly Arts line. (As soon as I think of a snappy name for it ill post it in the builds section.) I can forsee builds that use WotEP for much bigger chains that don't use lead attacks. I also see many other skills that can be used effectively that are ignored.

Basically, the tools are there (courtesy of Anet), but not everyone seems to be looking hard enough.

NOTE: I do think that some azn skill have rediculous recharge times (Deaths Charge and Dark Prison)

sph0nz · Jun 13, 2006, 02:05 AM // 02:05

The only reason you see A/Mo in PvE is for a hard rez and self-condition/hex removal. Anything else would be inefficient for an Assassin to use.

uncleBen · Jun 13, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

I was very skeptical about having an assasin in my group until 1 day, where I wasn't leader, I grouped with an assasin. He ran an A/R build, which at first I thought was probably using mainly ranger skills. I was pleasently surprised, really. He was probably the most amazing assasin I've ever seen: smart, didn't aggro, used death charge for healing instead of running ahead, and shadow form to avoid spells and attacks. Personally I think that's the most efficient elite. Basically, watching him play I got this much out of his build. He cast shadow form then attacked (didn't exactly remember what skills) and when it ended (loss of health) he cast death charge (gutsy move but gained a lot of health with 16 shadow arts) and then shadow refuge while using whirling defense. If he got in trouble he got out of there fast. I don't think he did 3 hit combo's but I think he did a couple conditions and and a little damage at a time. It was very effective and prompt me to try my own assasin. I tried a similar build and was able to take out lvl 20 warriors in PvP at lvl 17 with my assasin and was almost able to claim the survivor title (1 death @ lvl 20). I guess the bulk of the assasins don't know what to do, so I don't blame most people for not liking them. But until you try one yourself, I wouldn't knock it; who knows, you might even like it ^_^

Killmur · Jun 13, 2006, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Yea well my newest A/Mo is quite different. I so far have only 15 deaths and I just got off Shing Jea at Lvl 17. I swapped out Dash for Recall and found Recall is a damn good skill to have as a assasin. Only things I use from the Monk half is Healing Breeze set for +7 and Ressurect which will be replaced with Rebirth. Rest of my skills are mainly attack skills and Critical Eye. I have found I am getting the hang of the setup I have plus I actually am not running out of energy that much. All I need is the second 15-Pointer Quest and a good pair of zealous daggers. Basicly the moral of the story is never give up. If you don't understand the class at first then try and try and try again.

2ndName · Jun 13, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Same thing with me. I pushed through 4 characters to finished Factions. 3 of them are Prophecies characters and 1 of them is a Canthan. I have yet to finish Factions with my Assassin. I am fortunate enough to make it to House of Zu.

He was my mule until recently. I thought of an idea for a build and went with it. Currently he is doing much better than before.

Is funny because the Assassin class was the main reason why I bought Factions. I am praying that they fix this class...soon.

I figured out a pretty good build.
The main skills are
Live Vicariously
Vigorous Spirit
Healing Breeze
Critical Eye
3 Attack chain combo
Resurrect or another lead attack

My weapon of choice is a Zealous 15% Enchanted Dagger with 30HP.

Unsuspecting Strike is one of my lead attack, the other attack is the lead attack that gives you a certain amount of energy back. Can't think of the name right now.

But yeah, that is my basic build. It works for now.

ubermancer · Jun 13, 2006, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opeth11

75 base armor? That could be an improvement to assassins greatly. Mix that in with a +5 Armor dagger and you've got Warrior base defence.

... a hammer warrior, wearing glads, being hit with elemental damage, while not using any defensive skills.

Lord Oranos · Jun 13, 2006, 10:38 AM // 10:38

80 al is still better than having the same al as a necromancer with tormentors armor.

isamu kurosawa · Jun 13, 2006, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shred Dread

3. Try asking the assassin what attribute(s) he uses from his secondary profession, and how many skills he uses from that attribute. For example, you probably do not want an A/E who uses dagger mastery, and fire magic spells like meteor shower. Be especially wary when you see a A/Mo. While I myself have an A/mo, that class combo is often a danger sign pointing to the fact that the assassin is one of those that try to tank. Try asking what kinds of monk skills the assassin uses. If he uses a lot, then that assassin is probably a no-no.

And thats a problem i had. I was origionaly gonig to go mesmer for epidemic or phys resistance etc, but in my experience playing assasin i used an all assasin skill set bar res sig, so i decided to go monk 2nd for a decent res.

tuperwho · Jun 13, 2006, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Some of this is just frustrating to read. To the OP. No, assassins are not required in PvE, and it's your choice to include them or not. However, they can be assets (granted, it seems more often they're liabilities). Basically, I would say don't discriminate from the get-go. Rather, if an assassin wants in the group, talk to them and see if they have a head on their shoulders.

Now, to everyone else: Assassins have plenty of self heal. Critical eye + way of perfection + a brain is more then sufficient. There are other skills you can add to this, but it's really all you need. I beat the game with a number of different PuG's along the way, and it sure was fun taunting the "tanks" as they lay dead and I was healthy and making kills.

Next, try some of the other elites out. Assassin's promise is money. It gives the ability to have full energy and recharged skills for the entire battle. Pretty darn sweet, if you ask me.

And as far as energy goes, all classes need energy management (i think of adrenaline as the warrior e-management). If you read the skills and put about 2 seconds of thought into your build, this should not be a problem. Black lotus strike anyone? Oh look, it goes hand in hand with assassin's promise, impale, weaken armor, etc.

All I'm saying is open your eyes, people. Assassins can be great and unstopable. Don't get caught up in teleporting (which is completely unnecessary), and forget to learn your character and skills.

Chooby · Jun 13, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

I would hate to see this class buffed. If they can make it so it doesn't affect PvP, i'm fine with it. But buffing some skills that the assassins use will overpower it WAY too much in PvP.

Lady Kalvam · Jun 13, 2006, 12:37 PM // 12:37

In my opinion the only real problem about the Assasins in PvE is based upon the AI. The class itself is fine and quite balanced as PVP shows. While i brought my monk through the new campaign i quickly built a grudge against Assasins. With every bad 'sin out there the comments got more harsh, more nasty and more evil. I think it has reached a point where the 'sins have an even worse reputation than the average Wa/Mowsky Brother.

So to get back to my original statement that the real problem is based in the AI and not in the class itself let me explain my opinion.

I just had to make an 'sin and experience first hand what the problems with this class are. During my two weeks of testing i had a sharp eye on the 'sins Problems. I have purposedly played bad at times, i've also given my best at other times.
So with a brief history of my experimenting, there is the one thing i can think of that would insta-fix the whole A/X Problem without changing a single skill.

Rework Monsteraggro

This really seems to be the true problem behind the whole mess. While you can adapt your build and try to make the best out of it, it all boils down to a simple problem in my opinion.
The AI Aggro works in the following way:

First Phase
Combat Initiative
Every and all mobs constantly scan their aggro circle. As soon as an enemy engages them, they start attacking her. They however keep on scanning for weaker targets for a few seconds after the combat initative.
They go for the weakest AC first and then for the lowest Hitpoints. You can test this by bringing a Full HP warrior and a 55 HP Monkplatform into a battle and have them engage the enemy at the same time. The mobs WILL go for the 55 HP Monk, totally ignoring the warrior.
(Though this is not meant as an aggro guide, thos not profiecient in this: The white circle on your map represents the aggro circle within which enemies will notice you. If you wait for the first phase to pass by, the mobs are locked on your tank and you're free from danger).

Second Phase
Combat Duration
During combat, monsters constantly attack the target they have their target lock on. Though the movement of their target will cause the mobs to lose their lock as well as someone reaching their "Near by" circle will do. The key is movement, or for a good tank - the lack of movement aside from standing at the right place. AI reacts due to movement.
It also reacts due to AOE Spells (if an enemy is hit by more than one AOE Spell from a single Target during 3 Seconds, he will run for it. So one Meteor Shower - Still locked on target. Two -> Running mobs. See why i don't like fire nukers? :P).
Another problem causing a lost of target lock are foes using hexes. They just switch targets every now and then, applying their hexes to a random target. Thus Mindblade Spectres or Asassin Mobs are insanely hard to tank.

Third Phase
Late Combat Engagement
I allready mentioned it above, if a weaker target enters the mob's "near by" circle, the mob will loose their target lock and engage the new target. This however is the one and only true problem the 'sins have in PVE. As they are considered a weaker target due to lower Base AL and Hitpoints they will allways break the aggro if they get to close to the mobs, no matter when they'll engage their close combat.
And the reason why they die so fast is, because every single mob focusses fire on the squishy ones. You can see a similiar effect if you're sending in an Elementalist, he will allways steal and break the aggro from the Tank if he gets too close.

A simple solution to the whole 'sin problem would be a slight re-adjustment of the AI. If the mobs would stop judging by AL and Hitpoints and instead would chose their targets from a list of classes (as in: Close Combat -> Leave alone if possible, Ranged Combat -> Ah well, if they're in the way, kill them, Casters -> Yummy Yummy) the 'sin could do his job more easily, thus taking quite a bit of stress from the class. While i know that some will disagree with this for the game being to easy, i have an answer to them. The game might be to easy, yes. But that is not because the game is really too easy, you're just too good for it. Many players are not and as far as i know, playing a certain class was never meant to be a priviledge of those ultra skilled players.

And for the sake of completition, the rest of the Aggro Explanation.
Fourth Phase
Movement Re-Lock
Once the whole mob starts moving (the situation you'll be experiencing a lot with pugs) you're in trouble. It will be very hard to get another aggro lock on your tank. To do so you must lure the mob onto the tank again, walk in circles around him/her, force the mob to get stuck for a second. And while you do so, avoid your other party members like the plague. If you get too close to them you've lost the aggro - onto another one of the squishies, thus causing even more havoc.

Fifth Phase
End of Combat
If you've lost the combat, yet someone managed to survive you will often have the scenario that the mobs have an ultra ranged lock on him. This happens when you're running away with some mob having an aggro lock on you. As soon as you start moving back to the battlefield, they will instantly aggro you again and come for you. The best way to deal with it is to make them forget you. Takes a bit of time (about 5 Minutes).

XvArchonvX · Jun 13, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

I'm sorry Lady Kalvam, but I tottally disagree with you. What you are basically asking is for A-net to weaken the AI so that it goes easier on the player. The AI is smart and thus does what a smart player would do when fighting (well, to a limited extent, heh). PvE is already a LOT easier than PvP even with huge mobs of enemies.

The answer to your problems is better preparation for battle. First of all if it is enemy aggro that you wish to center on the tank, the tank must run in so that it reaches the enemies with all of his allies outside the aggro bubble. This makes it so that the only enemy target to choose from is the tank. The rest of the team can then come in and help out.

Not all aggro will always stay on one character and that really is where the assasin should come in to play, to help out the back line and keep a watchful eye on enemies attacking the soft caster targets.

Admittedly the hardest thing about healing an assasin is the damage spikes. Due to the low AL, high damage spells can sometimes kill an assasin before your average healing spell can counter it, like Starburst or Sould Explosion, etc. The answer to this is a good spirit ritualist running Shelter and Union. With these spirits up, the job of a monk is not only more reasonable for healing an assasin, but all targets who don't have large AL.

The answer to your problem Lady Kalvam is smarter gameplay, not making enemies stupider.

LamerFlamer · Jun 13, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

I beat the game with my assassin about a week or two after it came out. I always got into groups, (blame the monk friend I always grouped with ;P) and I never used deaths charge to get ahead of the group, I did that in the FPE, just to try it out. I found out in the FPE that that was a stupid idea. I don't use my assassin much for PvE, I'm more of a pvp person anyway.

I believe most people are discriminating against assassins for the same reason people discriminated against mesmers. They don't know what they actually DO.

I agree on many of the posts in this topic, on the assassins roll. I just wish people would be more openminded when they make builds and stuff.