Curse

Bloodied Blade · Jun 26, 2006, 03:52 AM // 03:52

AFAIK, KD doesn't increase chance for a crit. I think that the problem *really* with the AoD nerf was that they also nerfed the skill that we like to use as a follow-up: Golden Phoenix Strike. We're all now 5e short of our full combo and have to use a different one.

Ensign · Jun 26, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

A lot of the problem with the skill chains is that the only really attractive skills are the dual attacks. Most lead and off hand attacks are skills that you put on your bar only because they're *required* if you want to ever use a dual attack. You want to minimize the amount of chaff you have to use and get right to the good stuff - ala Twisting Fangs, Horns of the Ox, Death Blossom for PvE. You aren't going to see a lot of variety in assassin combos when there are only two good skills to use, and everything else is just to set those two up as quickly and easily as possible.

Peace,
-CxE

Phades · Jun 26, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Perhaps then the real solution would be to build similar skill compression that AoD creates within the attacks themselves. In other words, alter some of the "less useful" lead attack skills to perform the teleport as would be created through the AoD>GPS. The difference being, its a one way teleport. Then the lead attacks would still have a place to exist, if you chose to avoid using AoD.

I realize that the dual attacks are the attractive skills and that they are comparable to warrior style attack skills, but there really needs to be a purpose behind the rest of the skills besides filling space in order to create the jump to the ideal skills.

Something does need to change though, because there are too many "chaff" skills and only one real way to play a assassin.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 26, 2006, 06:59 AM // 06:59

just like my teleslash idea, I posted it in Sardelac but it kinda drifted into the winds.

Spura · Jun 26, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I agree with ensign, dual attacks is where the damage is at.
In PvP, there really are no alternatives to AoD. Temple strike is way too nerfed, those few hexes are best used on secondary. Most things are just crap.

Moebius strike is the only real contestant for PvP. But that 50% condition is too dependant on enemy healing.

Also as mentioned by ensign, assassin build options are very narrow.
Lead and off-hand are just chaff, and cause assassin to have less slots to play around with. Deadly arts whole is mostly chaff, because when you are hurting for slots like assassin is, then you can't toy around with 33% reduced healing hexes and stuff like that.

I think anet did wrong when they nerfed GPS and AoD. People weren't overusing those skills because they were uber hax powerful, they were all using same combo and aod because it is the only combo that even comes near the title assassin. Other combos are crap.

In pve assassins have huge problems with survivability. Either they don't stick around and teleport a lot, in which case they do way less damage than a warrior or they do and get killed a lot. Even with shadow stepping skills, AI switches target to assassin instantly and in that few sec to get combo off and recall, you already get badly hurt.

Also lvl 28 monsters mean crits happen a lot less, hurting assassin class even more.

I think the only real option to use assassin efficiently is to get a stance like shield stance and assassin promise. And just use AP to keep 75% evade all the time.

Bio-Flame · Jun 26, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

I think both you and Ensign are correct.
Assassins have too many skills that are worthless - aka:Lead and most Off-hands attacks - that you NEED to use in order to activate the "true" attacks - the Dual.

Since you have to use 2 attacks (Lead+Off) in order to do what you really want to do (Dual) you will have to use lots of slots. And slots isn't a luxury that the Assassin has.

So obviously, when people found out the GPS-HoO-FS-TF combo, basically saving 2 slots on your bar , everyone starting using that it. Who doesn't want to use 4 slots on the bar instead of 6?

Then comes that fact that the GPS-HoO-FS-TF combo is the best combo available to a PvP Assassin since it does KD, Poison, Bleeding and DW which are very nice conditions to have AND deals ok damage.
This combo does its job on every target even Warriors.

Added to all these facts comes another "coincidence" : The Combo requires an Enchantment to trigger the first attack and AoD is THE best skill that Assassins have. AoD allows the Assassin to go in, unleash the combo and get out before getting beaten up into a bloody pulp.

Last but not the least, AoD allows the Assassin to "outplay" his opponent, using AoD on a safe spot as an "anchor" and when he needs to return to a safe haven - puff, as simple as a double click on the icon. Instant mobility across a large amount of terrain is and always will be a very powerfull weapon.

All in all, it's a lot of factors that will make the Assassin play with AoD and the GPS-HoO-FS-TF combo.
Whether they buff the other Elites or nerf AoD itself, it will always be used. Unless they nerf it to oblivion and then most Assassins will just whither and die.

One of the conclusions from my analysis is that it isn't that AoD is overpowered (which it can be or not) but it's just that AoD allows the Assassin to do what no combination of skills does - that is, it allows the Assassin to kill AND survive.

Buff the other Shadow Step powers (unfortunately, ANET nerfed some). Buff the other combos, allow the Assassin builds to be more diverse.

Bio

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 26, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

don't feel like quoting it but QFT Bio QFT

Evilsod · Jun 26, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

So obviously, when people found out the GPS-HoO-FS-TF combo, basically saving 2 slots on your bar , everyone starting using that it. Who doesn't want to use 4 slots on the bar instead of 6?

Had something like that used against us in PvE earlier (members of LuNa we're there, hence why we got owned on the first meeting

). They were using Frenzy+Rush and i think had a monk with Strength of Honour. Could escape but once you ran out of allies to hide behind to stop Horns you took some serious damage.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 26, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

I'd just teak out everything you tried to hide behind MUAHAHAHAHAHA :P

Nightwish · Jun 27, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

There should be more shadow step options like shadow prison, where you can hex+shadow step to the target foe in 1 skill. But seeing the effects/duration of shadow prison/death charge, I'm guessing Anet wants shadow stepping to be a rare commodity.

Nevertheless, I feel that integrating one way shadow step into the lead attacks will help out this group of attack skills and at the same time improve the assassins' slot management. With the teleport integrated into the leads, then we can afford to have return skills (eg. return/recall etc). Not as good as AoD, an elite, but an improvement nonetheless. The fact that you need to use dagger attacks to teleport in means that it limits the amount of players that can use it (reducing abuse/excessive teleporting as a whole).

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 27, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

man I just wish they could give the sins more tele skills, hopefully they will do that in C3, also it would be nice if they could make the DA line worth while. Lik throwing in some actual shuriken or kunai in there, so that you can actually make a semi viasble DA build with AP and not spread yourself too thin.

lightblade · Jun 27, 2006, 04:34 AM // 04:34

All other sin's elites only serves one purpose, either daze or prevent enchantment and other stuff

But AoD have 2, getting in and getting out. It's 2 skill in one!

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 27, 2006, 04:37 AM // 04:37

AoD>every other class' elite

Rikimaru · Jun 27, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25

I Wouldn't say it's better than every elite, but it's definately better than any other assassin elite. Assassin elite skills are just crap. Seeping wound... oh my god! An elite that adds -4 degen! NERF IT IT'S TOO POWERFUL!!!
Pff, it doesn't even do anything unless they're bleeding or poisoned on top of it's already weak state.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 27, 2006, 06:11 AM // 06:11

lol I know I was exaggerating when I said that, I think the closest second elite would be Moebius tied with AP, third would be flashing becuase it is not conditional atleast, even though we do not want to have any tanking sins, flashing is stil decent compared to some other elites like seeping.

Beat_Go_Stick · Jun 27, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

One thing to note for those of you saying 'don't nerf the only good skill, buff the rest' is that there is no real way to buff the rest to be as good as those. Mind you, I agree that nerfing one of the only two good Assassin elite skills (Temple Strike) when it was far from uber to start with makes little sense. I also do not think nerfing is the answer in general.

However, you have to acknowledge the big picture as well.

What skill would you ever place on your Assassin's skillbar in the place of one that applies a deep wound AND bleed?
What would you replace a knockdown attack with?
How would you buff a teleport to be as good as AoD or even nearly as effective?

The problem isnt that Assassin skills don't do enough damage. We honestly do more damage faster than a Warrior but are less deadly over time as a Warrior can continue a very high DPS even after it used a skill combo. I think the problem is that Deep Wound is the best damage factor this game has to offer and any skill that can apply that will end up outshining whatever else they give us.

On a similar note, Knockdown is basically a more effective/brief Blackout. Your opponent is down on the ground, unable to move, unable to cast, and taking more damage than normal. There is nothing this game has to offer a melee class that is better than that.

Now note that the extremely deadly melee builds that have taken over PvP contain both these factors. A warrior without a Deep Wound is just as cuddly and, though not all of them have KDs, the really frightening ones do...or at least have teammates who can back them up with KDs.

Anything they buff on an Assassin will still take a back-burner to making sure there are the two most deadly effects on their skill bar: Deep Wound & KD. I can't think of anything that they could do to get me to remove Twisted Fangs from my bar in PvP unless I was working in conjunction with another reliable source of Deep Wound. So I guess my question to all of you complaining about Assassin skills is this, how would you maintain a balance while buffing skills with damage or effects on a melee damage class in order to make them the equivalent of skills with overpowered effects like Deep Wound and KD without overpowering the skills you buff?

EDIT: Sorry, I rambled a little there

My point was that it's not a matter of needing to buff other elites or other skills, it's a matter of certain effects being more powerful than others and the skills that use/apply those effects are the ones that are used. What can be done about that? I don't know....nerfing certainly isn't the answer. I really don't know the solution.

Bio-Flame · Jun 27, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I do not know the answer to your question but I do know that nerfing AoD and GPS like ANET did is NOT the answer neither....

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 27, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

o.o wow beat, I even have no answer, and usually I have atleast something witty to say I'm stupified.

Bio-Flame · Jun 27, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

it's a matter of certain effects being more powerful than others and the skills that use/apply those effects are the ones that are used.

Yeah. The problem with assassins is that there aren't "other" real useful powers other than a very select few, being AoD on top.