Curse

hated · Aug 17, 2006, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Seeping wound? OH that...it's there for comic relief don'tcha know? As you can clearly see in the pic the man is dying from laughter at this horrible horrible skill.

Kate Bloodspirit · Aug 17, 2006, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by prodigy ming

The problem is anyone can use shadow stepping skill. Why does only sins have to compensate with low armor?
And one of the main argument is you CAN"T teleport in and out easily due to poor shadow stepping skills.

Anyone not familiar with the topic would think assassins have a crap armor which is not true. Crap armor would be 60AL, assassins have 70 and warriors have 80 unconditional base. So it's not that bad, specially with 85AL you might have for those special situations.

And if it wasn't clear before, I did not meant to say you can teleport in and out, I meant to say that you can go in and out, with shadow stepping in any direction, both or just running (with speed buffs even). You have to play it like it's meant to be played.

The reason I tried to explain that would make assassin's armor less than warriors for example is because that way they will not ba able to train people like a warrior would.

Play the assassin's like it's meant to be played. Assassins are not tank and no, their energy doesn't suck and their armor is balanced.

hated · Aug 17, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Bloodspirit

Anyone not familiar with the topic would think assassins have a crap armor which is not true. Crap armor would be 60AL, assassins have 70 and warriors have 80 unconditional base. So it's not that bad, specially with 85AL you might have for those special situations.

And if it wasn't clear before, I did not meant to say you can teleport in and out, I meant to say that you can go in and out, with shadow stepping in any direction, both or just running (with speed buffs even). You have to play it like it's meant to be played.

The reason I tried to explain that would make assassin's armor less than warriors for example is because that way they will not ba able to train people like a warrior would.

Play the assassin's like it's meant to be played. Assassins are not tank and no, their energy doesn't suck and their armor is balanced.

And one of the main argument is you CAN"T teleport in and out easily due to poor shadow stepping skills.

And one of the main argument is you CAN"T teleport in and out easily due to poor shadow stepping skills.

And one of the main argument is you CAN"T teleport in and out easily due to poor shadow stepping skills.

I don't care about armor, the line that I just repeated THREE TIMES says he doesn't care about the armor as much as he cares about shadow steps.

What really bugs us is the lack of any defensive skills in the assassin line up, where is our defense in any given situation? Armor doesn't bugs me as much as the fact that it's the only thing I have to count when I get into a fight.

Shadow steps are supposed to be our answer to the lack of defensive skills, yet almost all are almost useless with the high recharge and some high energy cost ones. All because Anet fears that other classes with use the skills far better, which should tell you something right there.

prodigy ming · Aug 17, 2006, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Bloodspirit

Anyone not familiar with the topic would think assassins have a crap armor which is not true. Crap armor would be 60AL, assassins have 70 and warriors have 80 unconditional base. So it's not that bad, specially with 85AL you might have for those special situations.

And if it wasn't clear before, I did not meant to say you can teleport in and out, I meant to say that you can go in and out, with shadow stepping in any direction, both or just running (with speed buffs even). You have to play it like it's meant to be played.

The reason I tried to explain that would make assassin's armor less than warriors for example is because that way they will not ba able to train people like a warrior would.

Play the assassin's like it's meant to be played. Assassins are not tank and no, their energy doesn't suck and their armor is balanced.

dude, did you just completely misunderstood my comment? I SAID ASSASSINS CAN'T TELEPORT IN AND OUT EASILY DUE TO POOR SHADOW STEPPING SKILLS.
I have never said anything even near the line that assassins is suppose to tank and I fully agree they need to use hit and run tatics.
imo, next to no healing and low armor is worth sacrificing for if sins can teleoport in and out more freely (within reasonable bounds) like they are suppose to.

Overall Anet just didn't put much thought when creating faction... melee low armored assassin + afflicted exploding upon death = assassins destined to be hated. Assassins are one target killer, on the other hand Cathan is filled with nothing but hordes of monster in packs everywhere.

I think 2 of the best ways to fix this is:
1. stick some buffed up shadow stepping skills in critical arts line. this way non assassins primary wouldn't be able to take full advantage of shadow stepping which I think is logical.
2. Or, buff up the current shadow steppign skills and make it so that you need certain amount of attriubte in shadow arts or else the skill has 50% failure rate (as hated mention). This will make non primary have to sacrifice something in order to gain the benefit of teleoprt.

Yanman.be · Aug 17, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Assassins = Tyria.

Amy Awien · Aug 17, 2006, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver_Fang

The guy above me forgot to mention dagger do double strike as well so it is not 70 damage from dagger

One extra strike for that, and indeed the dualstrikes are double-strikes as well (it's not listed in the skill-description), another +60 on top of the 115 is 175.
Then those two more attack and if I factor in criticals and a maxxed weapon I find 9*22 = 198. A lot better, but still a bit (~100HP) short on the killing part.

And for being mean, that is what you get when you are exagerating pawnage. Too many people have already done that on the boards, it only leads to people discarding everything your posts.

Quote:

The guy above me forgot to say he didnt factor in Critical strike.

True, and critical hits might be the reason the basedamage of daggers is somewhat, ehrm, mediocre.

A Critical Hit deals maximum weapondamage (17 for daggers) at a 20AL armor reduction on the victim, another +41%. So, a 15^50, customized weapon hits normally for 12*1.15*1.2=17 and it critical hits for 17*1.15*1.2*1.4 = 33
With decent stats a critical hit would occur in ~33% of hits, so on average daggerdamage would be (2*17+33)/3 = 22. With ~1 hit per second (due to double strikes) it's about 22 HP/sec

For a sword 15-22, on average 26. Crits are 22*1.15*1.2*1.4=43. About 20% critical hits, so (4*26 + 43)/5 = 29 per hit, on average. With 1.33 sec/hit that is ... interesting ... 22 HP/sec

Yanman.be · Aug 17, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Assassin dmg = best there is. Only problem is how to deliver it.

Karmaniac · Aug 17, 2006, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by prodigy ming

I think 2 of the best ways to fix this is:
1. stick some buffed up shadow stepping skills in critical arts line. this way non assassins primary wouldn't be able to take full advantage of shadow stepping which I think is logical.
2. Or, buff up the current shadow steppign skills and make it so that you need certain amount of attriubte in shadow arts or else the skill has 50% failure rate (as hated mention). This will make non primary have to sacrifice something in order to gain the benefit of teleoprt.

If I may add...

3. Make the skill descriptions more like: 0 recharge, this skill is disabled for 60...15 seconds. Hence the skill becomes more effective the higher your attribute line while giving primary assassins greater advantage over secondary ones.

narud · Aug 17, 2006, 12:11 PM // 12:11

um..... when did shadow form become a horrible skill. Run in throw off you combo, cast shadow form right before you die, then use dash or shadow step skills to leave combat. Once shadow form is done heal and run back in. In my opinion, shadow form is awesome when you can deal hundreds of points if damage before you ahve to leave the fight.

pve-er · Aug 18, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by narud

um..... when did shadow form become a horrible skill. Run in throw off you combo, cast shadow form right before you die, then use dash or shadow step skills to leave combat. Once shadow form is done heal and run back in. In my opinion, shadow form is awesome when you can deal hundreds of points if damage before you ahve to leave the fight.

Shadow Form don't prevent Burning and AoE damage, 1 sec cast time is too danger if some ranger's spirit arround. 60sec recharge time sucks, better make it 30sec

RemusShepherd · Aug 18, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

A Critical Hit deals maximum weapondamage (17 for daggers) at a 20AL armor reduction on the victim, another +41%. So, a 15^50, customized weapon hits normally for 12*1.15*1.2=17 and it critical hits for 17*1.15*1.2*1.4 = 33
With decent stats a critical hit would occur in ~33% of hits, so on average daggerdamage would be (2*17+33)/3 = 22. With ~1 hit per second (due to double strikes) it's about 22 HP/sec

For a sword 15-22, on average 26. Crits are 22*1.15*1.2*1.4=43. About 20% critical hits, so (4*26 + 43)/5 = 29 per hit, on average. With 1.33 sec/hit that is ... interesting ... 22 HP/sec

But DPS doesn't matter here. If an assassin is meant to step in, kill, and step out, then by definition the class relies upon spike damage.

I'm not that familiar with assassins, nor with spiking warriors -- which has better spike damage? Assume the best spike skills for each.

If a warrior can spike better than an assassin, and can tank better than an assassin, *and* can use all the shadow jump skills as well as any assassin...then I'd say that there's a problem with the assassin profession.

Karmaniac · Aug 18, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by RemusShepherd

If a warrior can spike better than an assassin, and can tank better than an assassin, *and* can use all the shadow jump skills as well as any assassin...then I'd say that there's a problem with the assassin profession.

Congratulations, you just masterfully summarized the whole assassin issue that has been going on since day one.

Amy Awien · Aug 18, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

I think I just tried to point out that base dagger damage isn't all that bad. But I think you're right about needing the spike damage, and that would come mostly from skills.

Evilsod · Aug 19, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I think I just tried to point out that base dagger damage isn't all that bad. But I think you're right about needing the spike damage, and that would come mostly from skills.

I must be missing the part where a class spiked without using skills? Or am i very much mistake about the Adren Axe-warrior spike...

xiao1985 · Aug 19, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

sins are for spikes, which other prof do you see that can unleash ~200 ARMOUR IGNORING dmg (yes, then +40 dmg are armour ignoring) in a time spam of less than 5 seconds?!

if sins have high armour and high weapon base dmg , THEN it'd be unbalanced...

hated · Aug 19, 2006, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Again not asking for higher armor or better base damage, just want better shadow steps that are more partial to sin primaries.

Don't reply to the people who ask for higher base and armor, they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Gosu · Aug 19, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Ok I have read through this thread...I am sorry to say this but most of the posts in this thread are trash, the only posts of any noteworthy are actually hated and prodigy's

Quote:

Originally Posted by hated

.

...W/A

That's it, that's the only reason why. Warriors basically can grab any and all teleport skills they want and clean house, hence the need for long charges or high costs.

The reason AoD was changed to 10e? Other characters were using it BETTER than assassins.

The reason why we'll never see a shadow step non-elite that recharges under 45 seconds? Other classes will use it BETTER.

It drives me insane that anet didn't

A.) Put any good shadow steps in crit arts
or
B.) Give assassin skills the 4 or below failure clause.

GG anet, gg.

Hated is very correct, other classes have been able to exploit and use teleportation skills much more effectively than assassins have been capable of. Take the W/A and deaths charge for example if that had a lower recharge time then good night, I play assassins a lot and yes I would be inclined to agree.

Teleportation is a very powerful technique and one that should benefit the assassin the most. I would agree if there were a certain amount of points you needed for the teleportation skills then that would make it tougher for people of other classes to abuse it. A lot like "Gale" you guys remember how warriors seemed to adapt this skill into their metagame a lot more effectively than ele’s did themselves. It was only until Anet increased its energy usage which turned out to be the feather that broke the camels back and subsequently scared off warriors from using the skill you almost never hear of a Gale warrior now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prodigy ming

People keep saying go in and do "massive damage" then get out theory. The problem is, one spike usually doesn't kill off a single target, but no matter if he is dead or not you would have to get out due to lack of armor. Now you end up with the monk healing your target back to full health and you suffer a long down time and really accomplish nothing much in the end. In PvP almost everyone, espeically primary target like monks have some sort of evasion skill, one miss in your attack chain will end your combo immediately and back to waiting for everything to recharge. Sure you can bring skill that make your attacks cannot be blocked or evaded, but one sin combo is pretty energy heavy already, not alot of viable combo may allow you to have extra skill like this.

I agree that some shadow stepping skills (better ones) to be added to the critical strike line and make shadow stepping more unique to assassins.

Prodigy your first post especially the part about the get in and get out technique was very true you made a comment that in Pvp it's rarely ever effective. I know for a fact when I play boon monk I usually scroll through the enemy team to see what i am up against the moment I see a Sin, I almost know that the moment they get anywhere near my aggro radar they will try some teleportation skill to port near me. I would prepare the protective spirit basically snuffing away a lot of assassin damage, or use guardian.

Or better yet i might stand near a spirit,ally or pet possibly countering a horns of the ox if they happen to be carrying it. This is where knowledge of positioning comes into playing monk.

The fact I am basically trying to state that is that those hit and run tactics might work on some disorganised team of Muppets but against a team of half decent organised players who have a sizeable amount of knowledge about the game then that style isn't very effective.

How many of you have played monk and comfortably held off a sin for an extended period of time?

do you feel get in spike, run away or port out technique is the most effective?

The fact of the matter is spiking more consistently and more frequently is the way to go. Why do you think you see loads of warriors use frenzy or some type of attack speed skill to gain adrenaline so they can spike faster, frequently and more consistently.

All this nonsense about get in, spike, get out, job done!

Lol. Jesus Christ. I used to do that as well, but when i started playing against good monks and good players it wasn't enough

That’s why people as well as I have tried to manifest builds that allow sins more than one form of spiking chain or where sins have total control over the recharge rate of their spike skills. So they don't need to wait for a cool down so they can spike, then recharge and spike again.

QFT
That’s why people as well as I have tried to manifest builds that allow sins more than one form of spiking chain or where sins have total control over the recharge rate of their spike skills. So they don't need to wait for a cool down so they can spike, then recharge and spike again.

wilebill · Aug 20, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

My suggestion to assassin enthusiasts (and help me in the process). Let us run a practical test of the assassin class. Take your assassin to Fort Aspenwood, play on the Kurzick side (where you get shot by turtles on frequent occasion) and see how well your assassin performs. Post your results.

I've earned about 200,000 Kurzick faction experimenting with various assassin builds in Fort Aspenwood. To date, I have not found a build that works very well in there.

Kai Nui · Aug 20, 2006, 01:04 AM // 01:04

I think it comes down to choosing your secondary profession wisely. I do agree however that the assassin is a worthless class.

hated · Aug 20, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Glad you enjoyed our posts then Gosu, thanks for bringing it to the point. Hopefully people (like Anet *ahem*) will start to understand that what we have right now isn't effective enough.