Curse

Bloodied Blade · Jul 09, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Why an Assassin shouldn’t tank-

Before I truly begin, let’s get something straight. I am not saying that Assassins are incapable of tanking. They are fully capable of it with the right build and the right team, and I am fully willing to prove it to anyone who doubts my claim. To understand why an Assassin should not tank, we must understand what happens when they try to tank.

Here are many skills in the assassin primary that grant some form of defensive advantage:

1.) Critical Defenses
2.) Flashing Blades (Elite)
3.) Siphon Strength (Elite)
4.) Blinding Powder
5.) Dark Escape
6.) Heart of Shadow
7.) Shadow Form (Elite)
8.) Shadow Refuge
9.) Shroud of Distress

I have left out a number of skills that many would consider ones that you can use to “tank”, but that, in my opinion, are not as useful for that purpose.

Note that three of the skills listed are elite skills in nature, and thus, cannot all be used at the same time. Now let us look at skills that truly allow you to tank from that list of nine, I am going to define tank in this case as “survive agro from multiple foes for a prolonged period of time”. Of all the skills listed, there are three skills that either do not work against more than one foe, or are only usable for one hit. We are now down to:

1.) Critical Defenses
2.) Flashing Blades (Elite)
3.) Dark Escape
4.) Shadow Form (Elite)
5.) Shadow Refuge
6.) Shroud of Distress

Of these six remaining skills, two are elite, thus we can only really use five. Shroud of Distress is only really usable once you’re below 50% hp, so some would consider it useless. It remains because the defensive bonus it would grant at 15 shadow arts is 75%, which parallels any single defensive skill in the game. Of these six, only perhaps three or four would be desirable. I am referring to Flashing Blades (Elite), Dark Escape, Shadow Refuge, and possibly Shroud of Distress if you choose to make use of it.

Now that we know what our primary options are, let’s look realistically at them. Dark Escape can only be used until it wears off (and then has an approx. 10-15 second downtime), or until you hit something. In addition, it’s a stance, and this means that it cannot be used with Flashing Blades. Of what we have remaining, two of the skills grant defensive bonuses and one of them reduces incoming damage by 50%. This honestly brings us to the combination of Flashing Blades (Elite) and Shadow Refuge for a consistent tanking combination. I find excessive number work as boring as the rest of us, and let’s face it, nobody reads it anyway, and people see a bunch of calculations and go “look, that seems right, so he must be right as well”. Those of you who play Assassins are the people who I am catering to with this post, and you know the amounts of damage that an unprotected Assassin takes when struck. Needless to say, it hurts.

Running a few tests outside of Marketplace with Assassins and Warriors-

(vs Jade Brotherhood Knights)

Dmg per hit on an Assassin- approx. 30 dmg
Dmg per hit on a Warrior- approx 1 dmg

When Triple Chop was used (the Jade Brotherhood Knight elite skill)-

On Assassin- approx. 70 dmg
On Warrior- approx. 30 dmg.

I also ran a test to see how quickly I could die. The Warrior used armor that gave bonuses vs. physical damage, and the Assassin was wearing +energy armor. The armor comparison is different because your average assassin will not be running +15AL vs. Physical armor, but one of the other types, whereas a Warrior often runs +AL vs. Physical armor. The Warrior used no skills, the Assassin attacked while under the effects of Shadow Refuge and Shroud of Distress, refreshing Shadow Refuge as necessary.

Time to death vs. a mob of three Jade Brotherhood Knights:

Assassin: 9 seconds
Warrior: 15 seconds

As another test, the Warrior was taken against the same mob with 2 skills, Healing Breeze and “Watch Yourself!”. Healing Breeze granted 5 health regeneration and “Watch Yourself!” was at 12 tactics.

Time to death vs. a mob of three Jade Brotherhood Knights:

Warrior: 22 seconds

Monk skills were solely used on the Warrior (Healing Breeze) to simulate the regeneration and healing that the Assassin experienced. “Watch Yourself” was used as a second defensive skill.

All level 20 characters have a base hp of 480 that can be modified to anywhere from 55 to over 1,000 through the use of various equipment and spells.
Now we finally get to the true reason behind it all. What is it that is keeping you alive while you are taking this damage? It is possible to solo in certain circumstances, but I am referring to a team environment. There is another person keeping you alive. That person is your team’s Monk, and your Monk has to do many things. I play both a Monk and an Assassin as my primary characters (Monk being my main character from prophecies, and Assassin being the character I have played since Factions). While you consider your options to tank, you must also consider your other teammates in tanking, since tanking relies essentially on your team surviving; otherwise there would honestly be no point to tanking, would there?

In keeping the team alive, the Monk must expend energy reserves. In reality, more energy is allotted to the purpose of healing the tank, but for our purposes we are going to allot energy per-teammate.

My monk has 47 energy (including my primary weapon set, which is completely normal except for a +5^50 wand that I use, which can be considered using an insightful mod on a staff). On an eight person team, you generally have two monks. This means that ideally you will have enough energy to reliably heal 4 people each (three + the other monk). We are going to allot that energy evenly among the team, this results in 11.75 points of energy per teammate, which we will round up to 12.00. That gives you enough energy to cast 1 heal other on an ally while under the effects of divine boon.

It takes approx. 12 seconds to regenerate that 12 energy (3 pips of energy regeneration). Logic would state that equates to 1 heal every 12 seconds, but since not everyone on the team is always attacked at once, we will say that you get 1 heal every 6 seconds. This is, of course, nowhere near how it plays out in reality. In actuality, what happens is the Monk is spasmodically pulling out hair hoping that the team doesn’t die whenever a low armor character comes under attack. The problem with having two heals every 12 seconds is that your Monk is now into a loss of energy that almost no combination of energy management skills existing are capable of reversing. The Monk is now losing 24 energy every 12 seconds, and thus is in a loss of 12 energy every 12 seconds. To compensate for this, the rest of the team kicks in, and kills the mob before the Monk loses all energy reserves due to prolonged healing on any one target. There are builds that can compensate, but since the healing Monk is a very common variety, that is what we are using as our example. One thing that a lot of people don’t know is that a healing monk generally has one way to manage energy- Calling. The Monk broadcasts their energy in hopes that the team will understand and play accordingly. Now, what happens, when one of the optimal four damage dealers on your team (two Monks for healing, two Warriors for tanking, four damage dealers) is not dealing damage, but instead is taking the damage at an accelerated rate?

One thing. The Monk eventually runs dry. As any Monk will do, if you see a teammate dying, you heal them. If the Monks are optimally healing four people each, then one of the Monks is not healing the Assassin that is tanking. When someone that another Monk was supposed to keep alive is low enough on health that something is obviously wrong, the other Monk pitches in for the heal. Now we have a bigger problem. Both Monks are low on energy now or are completely dry, meaning that the heals that were to be for the rest of the team are few and far between.

Now we’ve run into a MAJOR problem. If the entire intention behind tanking was to protect the team, are you really protecting them if they can’t be healed?

I have tried to explain this in few words, I have tried to explain it in many. I just hope that someone catches on.

That was my essential reasoning behind why an Assassin should not tank. They are capable of it, and under the right circumstances (read as: A monk using protective spirit and guardian on them) able to tank large numbers.

I wish you all Good Luck, and Happy Assassinating.

Dako Changed · Jul 09, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Aside from a few points I see as asanine, this rings pretty true. As long as people know Assassins CAN tank. This was also illuminating to see some of the damage spreads.

Nice work

Celab · Jul 09, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota Stuart

Aside from a few points I see as asanine, this rings pretty true. As long as people know Assassins CAN tank. This was also illuminating to see some of the damage spreads.

Nice work

but they shouldnt.

In ha i usually play a Boon prot healer, w/ AoE+ vigorour spirit as a cover enechantment. Now, i can effectively have 45 energy, at 4 pips. One cast of RoF takes 2 energy, from divine boon. all the enchantments are costing no energy, apart from divine boons 2.

Lets say i have 16 divine favor, and 15 prot. not uncommon. Sure only 380 hp, but only 100 difference *realy*.

Anyway, if i spam RoF on someone, i am healing 73 from divine boon, 51 from divine favor, and 80 when that person gets attacked. Which is roughly 210 health for 2 energy. Tell me, that with 5 skills, you cannot have 3 which will effect energy?

5 skills are? Divine boon, AoE, Vigorous spirit (cover), RoF + Guardian. They have enough healing power to manage your energy problems, as you have 3 skills, maybe 2 if you choose to keep a end of fight ressurection skill, to mange energy. Which are inspired enchantment, inspired hex, energy tap, power drain, etc.

Plus, natural regeneration from 3 pips will help you along.

Bloodied Blade · Jul 10, 2006, 02:17 AM // 02:17

^^

I boon/prot in PvE, and while the healing is usable on an assassin, I have to use both Prot Spirit and Guardian to keep an assassin alive who's using Flashing Blades.

I was trying to point out that the assassin has a very limited selection of skills that they may use to tank, and even then it is fairly easy for them to take excessive amounts of damage, thus eating a lot of energy. 19 energy = ~5-10 seconds of safety for the average assassin (PS + Guardian with boon on).

Saider maul · Jul 10, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

assassins are not tanks in any form. the problem lies withing when it takes dmg it is taken like a unprotected necro. Spikes are or were my #1 problem for the sin. something needs done in the way of shadow step recharges or evades or armor because as a melee dealer. tanking or not the spikes are just to detrimental to the sin thus burdening the monk, creating the stereo type and if built around the dmg effects, hindering the full dmg potential of the sin.

Bloodied Blade · Jul 10, 2006, 03:53 AM // 03:53

^^

Hence the application of the "hit-and-run" style to create a minimum window in which one can take damage, thus placing less pressure on the monk, and decreasing the chance of the assassin to die.

Saider maul · Jul 10, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

yes but the assassins hit 1 target and run to wait and recharge and do it again. lol what a waste of time, space and character slot. a tank takes on the mob til its dead. My current build lets me average 2-3 more kills then most sins in a battle without burdening the monk or being spiked to death.

My sin is Not a tank, just an appropriate melee dmg dealer able to ENDURE.... not....TANK. a sin is best played from enemy caster to enemy caster.
However the way the assassin is now reguardless of how well you play one,they still burden the monks with over healing sense they take dmg like a caster and use direct contact attacks like a warrior.

The assassin does not need a major buff it needs a slightly better self heal or some type of 75% block/evade like almost every other class, caster or not has.
If nothing else, sense they expect us to be in and out, reduce the recharge of shadow stepping. Most are 45 seconds to recharge and if not an elite require 2 slots to waste.
also sense skill chaining is incorperated alot of times i find myself using 4 skills with a 4 hit , 2hit, 3hit combo. would be nice for better skill recharges. bad enough you have to chain now you have to wait on them to recharge to.

and if its supposed to be in and out. I have yet to see a sin who can cut thru you with 1 4-5hit combo against any decent player.

if you have one pm me for the challenge.

Kyle · Jul 11, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

My sin mows through people at aspenwood as long as my 4 attacks hit them.

but as for the thread. I thought it was well put together. Got a little off topic when the monk energy and everything was being mentioned but good points. If mods ever looked in here i say we sticky this

Saider maul · Jul 11, 2006, 03:03 AM // 03:03

its good info yes,.. good job. Very true in "most" Cases.

This also shows the proof of what the assassin lacks no matter how its played.
Thus a slight buff is needed in some sort.
Not a bad concept class just the "skill balance" from the preview skill set was rather excessive.

and in my opinion. -2 second reduction to recharge on shadows refuge and deaths charge recharge to 30 seconds.

that increase both the little self heal an assassin has slightly. and increase its moblility for the " Hit-N-Run " technique they wish you to use.

But then again who am I?

Legendary Battousai · Jul 11, 2006, 06:43 AM // 06:43

In most cases assassins dead less dps that wars, so according to your theory, they are absolutely useless and have no place in guild wars. Now if you think beyond math in this game and look at actuality (seeing as math can not be perfect, but only close), the assassin can easily pull manuevers that make themselves useful.

Now to return to the math aspect of it, the assassin could use things for instance like arcane echo-shadow form, making them virtually invincible for 40 seconds. In 40 seconds, 2 unhealed tanks could have easily died from the same group of brotherhood knights and the assassin attacking in turn could have killed all of them leaving before shadow form ends thus creating less energy spent on the assassins for a monk to heal during those 40 seconds and only having to heal 400 health once per 40 seconds on the assassin. 400/40 is obviously 10 health per second that the monk must heal for. Assuming most heals do approximately 20 health per energy (without boon), that would be 20 energy every 40 seconds, or .5 energy per second. That equates to 1.6 pips of energy regeneration on a monk, and assuming that the assassin is the only one taking damage in the entire group (if the entire group ALLOWS the assassin to tank) the monk will theortically have full energy most of the time and enough to heal for any accedental damage. Returning to actuallity, the group that the assassin may have died in 40 seconds, which would allow the monk to not heal the assassin for that it will regenerate to full health seeing as there is no damage being taken. Thus taking 0% of a monks energy to heal.

If we wanted to become more complicated with the idea, we could add in a second assassin with arcane mimmicry, allowing for 100-160 seconds (based on if 5 or 8 shadow forms get off) of invincibility between two tanks requiring no energy for a monk to heal. So in actuality, assassins could easily have a use in tanking if you did not overlook Shadow Form, the assassin could tank.

And btw, you gave your warrior a monk secondary in your experiment, where the assassin did not, in which a warrior primary could not tank for long himself, basically invalidating your whole argument of time on the 22 second.

Shadow Maruader · Jul 11, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

I myself am trying to develop a True Hit and Run build Not involving AoD at all in fact it uses dif skills i am not quite done testing it b/c i still need to get the elite...but i will post it if it becomes a success or a failure<--Not so much when its a failure though

Im trying to devlope it so that it allows 1 hit and run with quick dmg and then a second 25% speed run in and hit nearest target then sent back to the same location it will take alot of time i am sure and the possiblities of its success are 0-none lol no clue wat that mean just that if it works it will b really hard to use due to the timeing u gotta use for it...im still thinking.

Saider maul · Jul 11, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

ty for the debunk.

some guy · Jul 12, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

assassins are actually the most deadly class in guild wars, (if played right) but most noobs don't play them right. well I think i play assassins right here is what i do:

1. let our tanks and other peopel distract their front line attackers
2. shadow step in and take out their healer/spellcaster
3. run back to our monk

this is what i mainly do in pve and most of pvp

and people still exclude me from groups!!!

there are good assassins too!!

well i like your build for tanking, but most peopel just leave when an assassin try to tank

Peter The Wise · Jul 12, 2006, 09:21 AM // 09:21

heres where my argument comes in... there are reasons why assassins are considered too... low grade (can't find a word for it). most of the time you get kids in the cockpit of one, because they think the old time ninjas are so cool and invinceble when thats not the case, you rarely find a level headed one anymore that is rich that has beaten one, if not both games. alot of times people don't plan ahead of time. don't get me wrong, I've seen alot that do, but few anymore.

most of them need to learn to use adjacent skills, especially on rts and their groups/spawns

last post of my tripple,

shadow form
recall on monk
pwn
get out on flashing icon

Bloodied Blade · Jul 12, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Ok, I've gotten some interesting replies here, so I'll try to answer them all.

@Saider Maul: What you are not considering in the fact of the hit and run strategy is 1 VERY VERY important fact: You design the chain so that when your attacks are recharged, your teleports are ready. The only difference in damage that is physically possible is extra base dagger damage from remaining in melee- and we have proven that assassin's really don't thrive when in melee for a prolonged amount of time. As for buffs, I agree that Shadow Refuge should be buffed, or rather, un-nerfed. It used to halve all incoming damage while active. I would gladly accept its current recharge if the nerf applied to it was repealed. Otherwise I would enjoy either a bigger heal or a shorter recharge on it. As for Death's Charge, yes, I feel that the recharge is rather excessive, 30 seconds would be much better.

@Legendary Battousai: According to my theory they should not remain in melee for prolonged amounts of time, your other inferences are incorrect in regards to the assassin being useless in guild wars and a waste of a character slot. As for the use of Shadow Form to tank, yes, an assassin using Arcane Echo and Shadow Form with 16 in Shadow Arts could successfully tank certain mobs for up to 40 seconds. The main problem with that is that the mesmers in cantha interrupt with Signets and both the mesmers and necromancers in cantha have signets to deal damage. Also, an unhealed *TANK* would not die in 40 seconds. Mending, Healing Breeze, Healing Signet, Dolyak Signet, defensive stances. If you look to my post, you will see that the warrior that died in 19 seconds was not using any skills at all. As for the flame that you gave at the end: The reason that the warrior had a monk secondary was to completely mimic the assassin's healing abilities as much as possible without using a W/A. The Assassin would need just as much healing as the warrior if he were to actually tank upwards of 5 or 6 foes, because there would undoubtedly be ~2 mesmers and a necromancer somewhere in the mob (just from my observations in-game). Also, should the assassin step on a trap, Shadow Form does not protect against it. To top it off, against any large group of foes, the Assassin would only be able to tank in a pinch. Any number of mesmers and necromancers in a mob that has at least one ranger in it (i.e. your standard mid-late game mission mob) would kill the assassin very quickly. You overlooked damage resistance and signet of disruption, which if either were taken into account would make the warrior a much more appealing tank. Like I said, I did not say the assassin cannot tank, I was saying that it SHOULDN'T because it was much better suited to simply spiking down a monk or ritualist, and getting out of damage range.

@Some Guy: I agree with you that the main reason that the assassin's damage capabilities are under appreciated mostly because many people try to tank in all circumstances with them without the comprehension that it is only possible in a very controlled environment, which a zone with varying mobs is definitely not.

@Peter The Wise: Age really doesn't matter when it comes down to it, it really is just either that the player is willing to alter their playstyle for maximum efficiency or they are not. I haven't beaten either of the games myself yet, and I believe that several people on this forum have assassins that they have not yet taken through the game. I do agree with you that almost nobody plans ahead anymore though. I would suggest that for PvE, if you are teleporting back to the monk anyway, that you do not bother with the use of Shadow Form because if something goes wrong you're gonna die (i.e. Shadow Form gets interrupted, monk gets enchantment removed, a necro ques barbed signet as Shadow Form is blinking and gets insanely lucky). Also, it's gonna eat a lot of energy from the monk to heal you when it ends. If you have the teleport prepped already, why not use your elite to do damage or allow you to move more freely through combat? Also, I don't really see many assassin skills that affect adjacent foes that you could utilize very strategically (I realize there is Return and powers that *do* affect areas of foes, but how would you use them well enough to work a build around it?).

@Kyle: Thankyou for the compliment, I was thinking about something to relate with the energy management and lost my train of thought on what data I was going to use, if I happen to remember I'll post it. I also agree with you that using a 'sin in ABs just mows through everything if you can get your combo off. -My guild leader was spazzing over "how good this one 'sin was" just because he was from a high ranked guild (running generic horns build).

Good Luck Everyone and Happy Assassinating!

Hollerith · Jul 13, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

I wish you would have compared the two using better armor. In PVE, my Assassin uses the +15 while attacking. The assumption that a tanking Assassin is wearing +e armor is pretty bad.

A Warrior has ~100armor vs an Assassin's 85armor, a difference of 15. That's about 38% more damage taken by an assassin. Not 133% more (or 3000%).

I agree that no one should frame Assassins as tanks when creating all their builds, I pretty much disagree with your analysis.

What makes Warriors tanks? Their armor or stances?

jesh · Jul 13, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

And btw, you gave your warrior a monk secondary in your experiment, where the assassin did not, in which a warrior primary could not tank for long himself, basically invalidating your whole argument of time on the 22 second.

My warrior will most of the time not use secondary skills.

16 axe
11 str
9 tactics

Flurry
Healing Signet
Cyclone Axe
Penetrating Blow
Executioner's Strike
Dolyak Signet
Defy Pain {E}
Watch Yourself

I don't think there are many assassin builds that can put up that much resistance.

Saider maul · Jul 13, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodied Blade

Ok, I've gotten some interesting replies here, so I'll try to answer them all.

@Saider Maul: What you are not considering in the fact of the hit and run strategy is 1 VERY VERY important fact: You design the chain so that when your attacks are recharged, your teleports are ready. The only difference in damage that is physically possible is extra base dagger damage from remaining in melee- and we have proven that assassin's really don't thrive when in melee for a prolonged amount of time. As for buffs, I agree that Shadow Refuge should be buffed, or rather, un-nerfed. It used to halve all incoming damage while active. I would gladly accept its current recharge if the nerf applied to it was repealed. Otherwise I would enjoy either a bigger heal or a shorter recharge on it. As for Death's Charge, yes, I feel that the recharge is rather excessive, 30 seconds would be much better.

Good Luck Everyone and Happy Assassinating!

My point is when you look at the down time a sin has compared to all other classes the single target hit and run method is not optimal performance, flawed by #1: Damage managment,... #2: Skill recharges,... #3: the void in the assassins skill cycle when he/she is teleported out and awaiting skill recharges to go back in.
Throw in a poor operator and you now have what " most " assassins are today. Thus the stereo type.

I am a technician. I set everything up according to mathmatics, in a cycle window, with a % variable for random chance, for maximum performance including my builds.

What good is more shadow stepping going to do with out silghtly better skill recharges?

The assassin is flawed by its design at the release date. It can be functional but when compared to all other classes their DOT and Kill ratio's dont come close to any other class, nore do they defend like anyother class .

even if you teleport away you are still open to ranged/caster dmg.

The Build I posted is the only effective way to balance an assassin.
The bad part is 90% of people will bash a post even a tested build without even trying it.

Sorry but a mind only works if its open, and ego is the worst blinding skill of them all.

TadaceAce · Jul 14, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Um ok.

1. Your statistics are mathmatically wrong.
2. Your testing against a mob that the wars +versus physical triggers.
3. You don't mention if your attacking so the sins +15 kicks in.
4. You mention the warrior using secondary skills but not the sin?

Spura · Jul 15, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Yeah. Not to mention damage reduction got nerfed and if you are fighting attacking mobs, something like critical defenses makes it possible. Or take a look at my dryder's defenses + AP build. 75% evade and +50 elemental AL all the time while dealing tons of DPS.