Curse

arredondo · Jun 22, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

You want a really good build that absolutely owns Vamp Rangers? Say 'allo to my lil fren, the 20-Degen Assassin.

Each unit of degen, as many of you know, causes -2 HP of life drain a second with the max possible being -10 degen (or -20 HP a second). All extra degen is not counted unless it is countering regen from your target (-8 degen vs. +3 regen = net -5 degen, or -10 HP per second). Here's how I break through the imposed limits to reach -20 degen:

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<><><> The 20-Degen Assassin <><><> (As/Ne)

Deadly Arts: 15
Dagger Mastery: 9
Death Magic: 10
Critical Strikes: 7

Dancing Daggers: Lead spell sends three daggers for 20 damage each (total 60) if cast in nearby range
Mantis Touch: Off-Hand spell causes Cripple for 20s
Twisting Fangs: Dual attack does 15+15= 30 damage and causes Bleeding and a Deep Wound for 12s

Virulence {E}: If foe has a Condition, send him Weakness, Poison, and Disease for 11s
Shameful Fear: Moving foe takes -20 damage a second

Taste of Pain: If foe is <50% HP, you get (not steal) +110 HP
Soul Feast: Exploit nearest corpse for +203 HP
Rez -or- Plague Touch/Sig of Malice: Touch transfer a Condition or dismiss a Condition for everyone on target foe.

I'm using Shrouded armor for +37 max mana and have no energy problems. My weapons are +5 mana with +5AL in one slot, and a Death Staff with two +30 HP mods (+60 total) in the other slot. I also have my Poisonous Dagger Fangs from the pre-order... it allows Poison to last +33% longer.
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This is a great build. I actually play it more as a spell caster , but it still has the melee Assassin abilities. I went with max 15 DA for Shameful Fear and the Lead/Off-Hand attacks. Also I needed a minimum of 9 DM to use my Daggers for normal melee, and of course I wanted Death Magic as high as possible for the three skills I use for it. That left 7 points for CS to support TF (I don't need the +2E Crit bonus at L8 CS). Here's what you can do....

- Get in nearby range to use Dancing Daggers. If they run, no problem since Mantis Touch reaches fully across the radius of the aggro bubble as a cast just like all spells. Neither of these can be stopped by evade/block defenses. They are now Crippled and you can run up for Twisting Fangs.

- They are Crippled, Bleeding and have a Deep Wound. Dash out of nearby range and generously sprinkle some Virulence on them for Weakness, Disease, and Poison (which works even if TF is evaded/blocked due to Cripple). Suffering under six Conditions is enough to make many players lives miserable. Mend Ailment, Rit's Resilient Spells, etc. are good counters against this build, but they aren't on every Arena player's skill bar thankfully.

- They are now at the max -10 degen due to Bleeding, Poison, and Disease. Cast Shameful Fear and start melee attacking him. As a Cripple under all that degen, he WILL want to run away from your hits. Every second he moves is -20 to his health bar.

Remember, normal -10 degen is equal to a max -20 HP a second. Add this -20 HP per second from Shameful Fear as they run and you have -20 degen, or -40HP a second! Wait until you see the life bar just drain away at light speed, especially since you can still hit them as they Cripple along. This is too good. It works because SF isn't listed as degen like Enduring Toxin is (it's actually real damage triggering RoF, etc,), which is a skill that won't work in this setup.

- Defense is simple, stay out of the mix if you can, and get by with DD->MT->Virulence->SF. Twisting Fangs is not always needed right away, and you can wait awhile to use it if melee looks too dangerous. You can keep a decent distance and kite if necessary this way. When being chased, use DD->MT to slow them down. Even though it's an Assassin build, PLAY IT AS A SPELLCASTER! Don't melee spam unless it's absolutely safe to go in.

- Health is gained through ToP and Soul Feast. Together they keep you alive and well as you do your damage especially on Alliance maps. If you don't need the Rez (outside Arenas), I suggest bringing one of the Condition removals. They are cheap (or free) so your mana stays high for your offense.

- The damage is really nice. DD and Twisting Fangs combine for about 45% health loss alone on a 60AL build. The max degen of -40 HP a second in ideal situations will quickly dissolve the rest of their life, especially if you are melee tagging them (plus DD recharges every 5s for more use of it). Get a buddy to toss on Fragility first in TA for extra painful spikes.

- The additional plus here is that you also impose -20% health/healing and poor attack damage on them from Deep Wound and Weakness. Keep that in mind against single melee pursuers.

I now have a total of five Gladiator points running this build, so I can attest that it works pretty good. Mana is decent and you can keep applying degen and mini-spike pressure on your target as your skills recharge if they try to heal.... eventually this build wears many enemies down. The pressure health drops eventually catches up to them.

While it can hurt any class due to the armor/protect-spell ignoring damage, it is especially nice against Vamp Rangers. Get a Vamp Ranger to follow you far away from his helpers, tag him with the first two spells and run (you can do so at a distance). He's snared for the entire match if you wish. Then just 20-degen him to death as you point and laugh. If he can't get close to anyone to life steal or Condition transfer, he's toast.

Hopefully you enjoy it!

Siren · Jun 22, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

I saw the title of this thread and wondered what was going on...if arredondo was out of his mind or if he'd stumbled upon something useful.

Clever girl with Shameful Fear, man. That's what I'm talking about...how players will learn to bypass certain rules of the game--especially when playing Assassins--and begin to really rock house.

I suppose my only concern is the recharge of Shameful Fear (10/20). But then again, I guess the longer recharge is irrelevant, since you can still do enough damage without it, and if an Assassin can't kill a target in under 5 seconds, they shouldn't be playin Assassin anyway.

Nice build.

Nightwish · Jun 22, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Is arredondo female?

Yes, this is indeed a nice and unique build. I cannot say how effective it will be but I do like the attack skills being able to be used for defensive measures as well.

dragonhawk26 · Jun 22, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Nice creative build. I love how people are looking past the dagger slash-slash-dual builds. Props to you

Kitt · Jun 22, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

wow nice build

I am going to scurry off after work and work on my sin after reading this

great job Arrendondo

Brother Foon Sped · Jun 22, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Sounds like a blast.

And by that I mean killing a touch ranger. Grrrrrrrr. Cheap, uninventive, loosers.
Speaking of hypocrisy, I'm going to borrow this build and try it out.

I'm surpised mantis TOUCH is ranged. But then again I never play an assassin.

Question.

Don't you disease yourself alot and if so how managable is it to keep your healing up?

Thanks, and very sharp unique build by the way.

Pick Me · Jun 22, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Nicely done.

I do have a few concerns though. A good Touch Ranger has a stance on, so does Twisted Fangs still hit enough times?

Energy Management - do you get enough from Critical Strike to maintain this?

With all of these conditions do you have any fear of Plague Touch or Plague Sending?

A Touch Ranger doesn't always have to move, some also carry troll ungent (to combat running health degen characters).

What happens if a monk uses draw conditions?

I'm not bashing your sweet and innovative build, I'm just curious as how you deal with these "what if..." scenarios.

Again, well done.

CKaz · Jun 22, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

always a good read
/applaud arredondo
even pve makes me think a few things

Lambentviper · Jun 22, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

well Pick Me, thats definitly a problem and as theres no perfect build, i think we have found this ones weakness

But this is great for Alliance Battles, as targets like to run back to their teamates

Hollerith · Jun 23, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

I've played around with a snare/Shameful Fear build, and the problem I ran into was that casters that knew they were snared won't really run and instead opt to cast through attacks (unless they were far away from their groups). Melee, however, will limp along.

Nevin · Jun 24, 2006, 02:29 AM // 02:29

I tried this build on a touch ranger, really messed it up.

arredondo · Jun 26, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

I'm glad you guys like it. A few responses to points made....

- Me female? Wow, that would be news to my wife and little kids. I can't wait to tell them they owe me a Mother's day gift.

- Disease... you know what, every now and then you will catch it from your foe once Virulence is applied. However you can avoid it easiest by doing what I said in the first post: Dancing Daggers->Mantis Touch->Twisting Fangs (run away)->Virulence->Shameful Fear. However, when they are near death, you can kill quicker by going in and melee spamming to add more damage to the 20-Degen as they try to run away under the Cripple.

Even though you are going to get Diseased, your -3 degen is tolerable compared to what they are dealing with. Plus, as soon as they are <50% health, Taste of Pain will heal you back to full health easily, or you can wait to use their corpse with Soul Feast. Even if you have to apply TF after Virulence, it is worth getting Disease because of the DW spike. Remember, getting Disease on you late means it wears off quicker. Sometimes it's only 5s worth if you wait a bit before going in, which comes to a mere -30 HP to your health. Don't worry to much about it.

- Shameful Fear isn't always ready, true, but as mentioned there is still good damage until it is ready to be used again. This is constant pressure over time rather than a quick spike-kill build, so just re-apply what you have as it all recharges if a foe tries to heal up.

- If you really have mana problems, then pare down DA a point and get CS up to L8 for +2E every critical hit. Be prepared to melee attack more (which I don't recommend), so you may want to wait to apply Virulence. Also, ToP is cheaper than SF. Again, I have no major energy problems, so check to see what you're using your casts on that keeps you from doing what you want (i.e., don't spam DD if you don't have to).

- Enemy doesn't move under Shameful Fear? That's a melee character's dream, lol. If it is a caster target who won't move, go in there and beat his brains in as this is better than any snare or KD. If it is a melee/Touch Ranger, your degen is stronger than basic heals. If the Touch Ranger uses Troll, smack him around during the 3s cast to add damage, then back off and Dancing Dagger him every 5s. I've seen people try to stay still, but all the other things going on really hurt them regardless of if he tries to run or not. The Disease you may get is worth it punishing them for not moving.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 26, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Im just curious what is your rune application here, and what are your base attribute levels?

arredondo · Jun 26, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Ooops... thx for bringing it up; Death Magic is 1 point too high:

Deadly Arts: 15= 11+3+1
Dagger Mastery: 9= 8+1
Death Magic: 10
Critical Strikes: 7= 6+1

There are 4 points left over. I'll correct it above, but the values I originally put for Virulence, ToP and Soul Feast were correct for L10 Death.

Pick Me · Jun 26, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I'm glad you guys like it. A few responses to points made....

- Me female? Wow, that would be news to my wife and little kids. I can't wait to tell them they owe me a Mother's day gift.

- Disease... you know what, every now and then you will catch it from your foe once Virulence is applied. However you can avoid it easiest by doing what I said in the first post: Dancing Daggers->Mantis Touch->Twisting Fangs (run away)->Virulence->Shameful Fear. However, when they are near death, you can kill quicker by going in and melee spamming to add more damage to the 20-Degen as they try to run away under the Cripple.

Even though you are going to get Diseased, your -3 degen is tolerable compared to what they are dealing with. Plus, as soon as they are <50% health, Taste of Pain will heal you back to full health easily, or you can wait to use their corpse with Soul Feast. Even if you have to apply TF after Virulence, it is worth getting Disease because of the DW spike. Remember, getting Disease on you late means it wears off quicker. Sometimes it's only 5s worth if you wait a bit before going in, which comes to a mere -30 HP to your health. Don't worry to much about it.

- Shameful Fear isn't always ready, true, but as mentioned there is still good damage until it is ready to be used again. This is constant pressure over time rather than a quick spike-kill build, so just re-apply what you have as it all recharges if a foe tries to heal up.

- If you really have mana problems, then pare down DA a point and get CS up to L8 for +2E every critical hit. Be prepared to melee attack more (which I don't recommend), so you may want to wait to apply Virulence. Also, ToP is cheaper than SF. Again, I have no major energy problems, so check to see what you're using your casts on that keeps you from doing what you want (i.e., don't spam DD if you don't have to).

- Enemy doesn't move under Shameful Fear? That's a melee character's dream, lol. If it is a caster target who won't move, go in there and beat his brains in as this is better than any snare or KD. If it is a melee/Touch Ranger, your degen is stronger than basic heals. If the Touch Ranger uses Troll, smack him around during the 3s cast to add damage, then back off and Dancing Dagger him every 5s. I've seen people try to stay still, but all the other things going on really hurt them regardless of if he tries to run or not. The Disease you may get is worth it punishing them for not moving.

CoP will drop conditions and hexes though.

E/N - burning speed, Plague Send, Life Siphon, Blinding Flash. Then start to use Earth Magic to KD and Aftershock.

I have no doubt that you have used this build and probably pwned just about everyone you faced.

I was just wonder about TRs as from what I've heared, they don't use Melandru's Resilience nor Troll Ungent.

arredondo · Jun 27, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Most TRs are happy with only the life steals to keep them alive, true. That just makes it easier for this build since snares keep them from getting touch heals.

CoP can slow the damage a bit, but not completely remove the overall pressure over time. Remember, it can only remove as many as the number of enchants they have on. With six Conditions applied, CoP is not nearly enough to clear them all. Shameful Fear can still be used too.... just apply it after they try to erase the Conditions with CoP. You have 10s where CoP can not be used again, and they have to re-apply all their enchants during that time as well (forced self-mana burning). Because you almost always have an anchor Condition or two, you can easily re-apply Virulence (and TF's combo chain) whenever they are ready.

Hollerith · Jun 27, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

- Enemy doesn't move under Shameful Fear? That's a melee character's dream, lol. If it is a caster target who won't move, go in there and beat his brains in as this is better than any snare or KD. If it is a melee/Touch Ranger, your degen is stronger than basic heals. If the Touch Ranger uses Troll, smack him around during the 3s cast to add damage, then back off and Dancing Dagger him every 5s. I've seen people try to stay still, but all the other things going on really hurt them regardless of if he tries to run or not. The Disease you may get is worth it punishing them for not moving.

Not sure if that was directed to me, but I was commenting on enemies not moving while snared.

Effigy · Jun 28, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Interesting idea. However, any decent touch ranger will have Plague Touch, and will give you back the conditions when you get close to use an attack skill. Plague Touch has no recharge, and once they get Crippled off they should be able to chase you with a run buff (especially if you're now crippled).

Beat_Go_Stick · Jun 28, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Interesting idea. However, any decent touch ranger will have Plague Touch, and will give you back the conditions when you get close to use an attack skill. Plague Touch has no recharge, and once they get Crippled off they should be able to chase you with a run buff (especially if you're now crippled).

Who says you have to get close to a Touch Ranger? Just cripple from a distance and kite while they run after you and their health burns

Great build, arredondo! Way to think on the outside

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 29, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

^^ agreed touchies are easy to kill just smack and run.