Curse

serpico · Jan 12, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

hey guys, good topic...

i too started a sin, got too lvl 20, then just stopped playing her, couldnt stand a sin in pve. a month goes by and i role another one, male this time, female just looks weird to me. anyway, the sin has become about my favorite character, i do ra alot so thats where the beauty of a sin shines. there kinda like a mesmer imo. there the hardest character to play well, and they are a pvp character.
i did do a ids run with my sin last night, pretty fun stuff. i've been playing gw 20months now so i feel like i understand builds and which target to attack ect. if u don't know about everyskill in the game, and haven't mastered all the other characters, a sin isn't for you. its all about picking the right target. if your not willing to count off spells, dont bother with a sin. what i mean is, if u want to attack a monk, u see him put guardian up, u count to 5 then burst in. warrior using glad defence, count to 12, burst in. mes with distortion, ect. you face a blind bot ele in pvp, u gotta know he's got a 4 second window in which u can kill him, wait for him to cast bs on someone else, then spike. its a very difficult class to play, i see more noob sins than any almost any other class. just becuase you have a great build, doesn't mean u know how to use it. knowing when and who to attack is the best advice i can give you.
someone said there are limits to sins builds, i agree completly there. sins need way more skills. twisting fangs is in most builds, and why not, its one of the best skills. i hope anet/gw adds many more attack skills to the dagger and critical attribute class. i'd also love one skill that deals with hexes besides shadow form.

just my 2cents

rebirthofdragon · Jan 12, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Where's your critical strikes?

That's a good point as I would sometimes be stranded w/o energy. I also found that Live Vicariously was quickly becoming inadequate and I don't have slots for more heals. As such I went with this for now:

Healing Prayers: 2
Daggers: 12+1
Shadow: 8
Critical Strikes: 10+3

Skills: Flashing Blades, Golden Phoenix Strike, Blinding Powder, Horns of Ox, Falling Spider, Death Blossom, Sharpen Daggers, Resurrect Chant

Flashing Blades and Blinding Powder provide a good defense against potential melee threats while GPS->HoX->FS->DB deal decent damage to an enemy (or just GPS->DB for a 2+ enemies).

What I don't like is that w/o GPS I'm useless and GPS is useless w/o Sharpen Daggers, which in turn lasts only 32 seconds and recharges after 20. This means I have to reapply it somewhat often and if it gets stripped before GPS I have to abort.

Any suggestions as to how to make this build flow better?

P.S. So far I have capped Flashing Blades and Palm Strike as elites.

Utaku · Jan 12, 2007, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

T Horns of Ox, Falling Spider

This is not reliable in pve, because ennemies are usually packed, or close to a rit's spirit.
I suggest using an attack chain that reloads very fast.

You can try this :
Critical Strikes : 13 (mandatory)
Dagger mastery : As hig as you can.
Other attributes are irrelevant.

First Chain is easily spammable due to quick reloads.
Last part is for tough baddies that survive the first chain.
Signet of malice to get rid of blind mainly.
Rez signet is better for an in fight quick rez, bosses are everywhere anyway so it will be reloaded.

Jagged Strike (Dagger Mastery)
Wild Strike (Dagger Mastery)
Critical Strike (Critical Strikes)
Palm Strike [Elite] (Critical Strikes)
Twisting Fangs (Critical Strikes)
Return (Shadow Arts)
Resurrection Signet ()
Signet of Malice (Assassin None)

No Self Healing, you have to know and feel when you need to get out of the fray. Bring a Prot Monk, it really helps.

Dutch Masterr · Jan 12, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

dont use jagged strike with twisting fangs..its pointless. use leaping mantis sting or unsuspecting strike.

Utaku · Jan 12, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

dont use jagged strike with twisting fangs..its pointless. use leaping mantis sting or unsuspecting strike.

It's not point less in PvE. Leap mantis' reload is 8s, jagged's is 4s.
Plus with the build I posted, you don't have to Twist Fang every foe.

Unsuspected strike looks good, but 10e for a lead attack with a conditionnal bonus damage is not worth it.

ubermancer · Jan 12, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Healing Prayers: 2
Daggers: 12+1
Shadow: 8
Critical Strikes: 10+3.

I gotta get to class, perhaps someone else can point out whats wrong with that for me?

pingu666 · Jan 12, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Unsuspecting_Strike
the only other lead attack id take for pve stuff would be..
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Golden_Fox_Strike

unsuspecting is half conditional, i think its reasonable to other lead attacks even if u dont meet the condition (waste a effective 5e)

jktstance · Jan 12, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

You have to be a little careful, but I've never found the Afflicted to be much of a problem as an Assassin. My favorite PvE build before NF was Jagged-Wild-Death Blossom-Moebius Strike-Horns (or Blades)-Heart of Shadow-Shadow Refuge-Rez. Moebius wasn't even needed, since Jagged and Wild Strike recharge so quick.

One thing I was VERY careful of doing was to get my attribute set up so that I had over 480 health, since I henched a lot. I got attacked much less because of that. I had Ceremonial Daggers (+30hp) and a major vigor rune (+41 hp, too poor to afford a superior). That gives you +71 hp, so I used a major dagger and major critical strike run, leaving me with 481 hp. That was probably the biggest factor in my success in pve.

If you have NF, the new assassin skills, particularly deadly paradox-feigned neutrality, are making pve a joke right now.

rebirthofdragon · Jan 12, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

I gotta get to class, perhaps someone else can point out whats wrong with that for me?

What's wrong with that?

jesh · Jan 12, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sqube

Muk Utep
The /W secondary is great for Assassins. There's a lot of useful stuff in /N as well; those two secondaries let you bring Wild Blow or Rigor Mortis, which handles blocking, evasion, and stances in general.

If you chose the right targets, you don't have this problem. Taking Wild Blow on Melonni helps for the few stance users in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muk Utep

No, I never said that. In fact I believe I said the opposite - I don't believe assassins are useless, but I don't find their damage good enough to compensate for their lack of just about anything else.

Perhaps you ought to look at my build here?
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7...rrelrunsb8.jpg
Show me a pic of your dervish or warrior doing the same thing without photo manipulation, and I'll hand it to you that assassins aren't worth the trouble.
All the healing and whatnot that people complain about is because they just aren't able to play a melee class in PvE, period. You can run with no survival skills just as effectively as a warrior can, and you definitely don't need a human group to beat the game. I just finished it on that assassin, with all heroes and 1 friend, who was playing an earth elementalist.
IF you take a survival skill, it should be Dash. Why? It's non attribute, and doesn't need ranks to make it effective. It can save you from an afflicted explosion if you get out a little too late.

As for target priorities, most of the time I will go for casters first. Sometimes though, my monks are under a lot of pressure from melee, so I'll start picking them off with Horns. I actually found it great fun to unexpectedly aggro 4 mobs and kill every single monster with no casualties, thanks to the incredible damage that the assassin class can put out. Oh, guess what? I never customized those daggers. If the KD is not essential to you, you can put in Death Blossom or something else in there instead. I like it to temporarily disable the enemy, but it's not necessary. I can do *more* damage if I want. Can you say the same for a warrior or dervish?

I do agree that a dervish hitting multiple targets can put out more damage than some assassins, but 3 and a half seconds, (3.25 I think?), for a death is something unparalleled in the GW environment. If you don't have the skill it takes to always go after the right targets and be aware of your environment, fine. Don't post rubbish about the assassin class not being worthwhile, though.

I Phoenix I · Jan 12, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

rebirthofdragon, the thing that is wrong with your attribute setup is that you are using a Superior Rune in Critical Strikes and not in Dagger Mastery. You would normally want 15 or 16 in Dagger Mastery. Also, you are not using minor runes in your setup, and 8 in Shadow Arts is not necessary if it is just for Blinding Powder.

I too had an Assassin, deleting her after I got bored. However, I started playing Assassins in PvP and I loved it, so I decided to make another Assassin. So far it's level 20 and at Naphui Quarter. The only real incentive that makes me want to get a PvE Assassin PvP-ready is that heroes make everything easier now, as well as there being quite a lot of nice skills in Nightfall that I like.

Yanman.be · Jan 13, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Yeah, weapon mastery > critical strikes if you're counting on crit hit%

FoxBat · Jan 14, 2007, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Show me a pic of your dervish or warrior doing the same thing without photo manipulation, and I'll hand it to you that assassins aren't worth the trouble.

I'm sure you're replying to others, but I did say assassins have two worthwhile PvE elites, which promote near constant attack spamming. The idea of "jump in, unleash your spike combo, jump out and recharge" as some have promoted is a good idea for arenas and no-where else. It's best to just keep the damage flowing in PvE.

As one poster complained, there are some very effective PvE asn builds... they are just very few.

Am I A Good Sin · Jan 14, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Hey pplz. I think the assassin is actually the ultimate PvE character. At least mine is. Try a shadow of haste build. U could solo an entire mob if used right. AoD would help to. Remember mobs can only run after u so far. They have their limits. Like a shock collar on a dog. Critical defences can be ur best bet in a mob. Just think on it. In NF corsairs r mostly rangers and warriors with a priest and caster in every other group. Use crit defences and crit eye AoD to the caster kill, continue fighting since uve probably scored a few crit hits and crit defence is up. If crit defences goes down take off AoD until its back. Rangers and warriors will barely be able to hit u and if the caster is dead he certainly can't kill u.
In PvP don't shadowstep! Every1 waits for a sin to shadowstep to a squishie. Then the sin goes squish.... If u must shadowstep allow an ally to go in first such as a warrior or dervish that way u can get in while every1 is busy with the other guy. Deaths charge = worst sin shadowstep. That's meant for starbursts and wars. Use scorpion wire and run back a few steps since ur agro area is 90ft. I can't remember the recharge time but I think its lower than death charge. As for defences in PvP crit defences is still my favorite. Flashing blades is a waste. 1 out of 2 atks hits most the time. And for atk line up I can't tell u mine cause then it gets countered and my combo is my best yet. Just know don't use the horns of the ox and the falling spider build. Its not bad or anything its rather great but an interrupt on falling spider or horns of the ox messes up the build entirely. Some builds can function even with a piece missing. Might not be as powerful but my build still gets the dual atk in.
Well there's my 2 cents. ( actually I have no sense but oh well :-P )

jesh · Jan 15, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

...The idea of "jump in, unleash your spike combo, jump out and recharge" as some have promoted is a good idea for arenas and no-where else. It's best to just keep the damage flowing in PvE.
...

And in PvP, spiking and mobility are obviously useful... therefore arguing against the usefulness of the assassin is a waste of time. Correct?

JYX · Jan 18, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Perhaps you ought to look at my build here?
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7...rrelrunsb8.jpg
Show me a pic of your dervish or warrior doing the same thing without photo manipulation, and I'll hand it to you that assassins aren't worth the trouble.

I guess they really aren't worth the trouble then.

[image]

Some things I would like to point out about my picture:

I have 650 HP as opposed to your 456. This in turn means that I have used no superior runes, and 2 vitaes.
I have 1 skill on my bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

And in PvP, spiking and mobility are obviously useful... therefore arguing against the usefulness of the assassin is a waste of time. Correct?

Slow spiking isn't useful in any way. You're going to have a hard time killing anything at stand. This relegates you entirely to gank duties. As for mobility, most of the benefits you can get by going assassin secondary. Besides, 3 man splits seem to be popular at the moment and they don't utilize assassin at all. Anyone can gank some NPCs, the ability to harass enemy flaggers and hold the flag or really threaten the lord in the enemy's base area is what makes a good gank.

jesh · Jan 19, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8952/gw021rq4.jpg

That's the best I can do with 16 Axe Mastery as opposed to your 12.. and I'm using a zealous axe of axe mastery. The 100 AL target takes so long to kill I almost fell asleep at the keyboard. Well it is 1:31 am..
I'm going to bed now.
Btw, assassins have the same attack speed with daggers as do warriors with an axe or sword. They both have access to IAS skills, and can apply a deep wound in pretty damn near the same amount of time.
Shove->Crushing as opposed to BSS/other offhand->TF

If you're talking about once adrenaline is charged, then sure Eviscerate can be your first hit, but it doesn't take effect until the next source of damage. Duh, Critical Chop. TF, being a dual attack, just needs itself.

JYX · Jan 19, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8952/gw021rq4.jpg

That's the best I can do with 16 Axe Mastery as opposed to your 12.. and I'm using a zealous axe of axe mastery. The 100 AL target takes so long to kill I almost fell asleep at the keyboard. Well it is 1:31 am..
I'm going to bed now.

LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

If you're talking about once adrenaline is charged, then sure Eviscerate can be your first hit, but it doesn't take effect until the next source of damage. Duh, Critical Chop. TF, being a dual attack, just needs itself.

I'm just going to go ahead and ignore the portion where you compare the energy attacks of warriors and sins.

No Twisting doesn't just need itself, it needs an offhand at least. So yes, Eviscerate->Crit Chop is faster in spike. In practise its all irrelevant, often you're not the person activating your own deep wound on spike, because you know, a spike tends to consist of other people. There's a reason nobody uses assassins even in very defensive eurospike.

Its also irrelevant because nobody in their right mind will be running assassins over warriors at stand due top the pressure you lose.

But we agree anyway right? Seeing as how assassins aren't worth the trouble.

SotiCoto · Jan 19, 2007, 11:03 AM // 11:03

I have no idea why most assassin players are so set on heavy condition application... heck, I haven't even unlocked Ox Horns nor Falling Spider... and for that matter, despite my assassin having over 95% of my play-time... I can count the number of times I've shadow-stepped on my fingers, and its not as if I die that often either. Furthermore... I play exclusively PvE...

And... if we really want to rub things in further... I don't bother with A/Mo because I've found it gets me killed too often. Ironic... hmm?

I've pretty much played Assassin / Mesmer from the start... Two classes reknowned individually for dying easily. Its kept me alive more often than not... and since my current style (Illusionary Dagger Tank) takes a certain amount of time to aquire (getting through Prophecies to Talus Chute to cap the Elite).... I'm going to make mention of the initial trick I used...

The selection of skills I used on Shing Jea Island had a few notable features:

#1. A simple combo: Jagged Strike, Fox Fangs, Death Blossom. I have traded in Fox Fangs for Wild Strike because it kills stances and is more spammable... and have since added Repeating Strike to all my combo builds (i.e. non-ID)... I had Dash and Shadow Refuge as well, naturally...

#2. Dagger Mastery maxed. Note that pretty much all the combo skills I ever use are Dagger Mastery based... I only ever put minimal leftovers into Critical Strikes... mostly because I don't often find Energy Management to be a life or death issue (required patience and careful positioning at times, but never a huge problem), and I need the attribute points elsewhere (besides the fact that it doesn't make that much of a difference, from personal experience).

#3. The mesmer trickery. What really got me through Shing Jea island were the two skills Empathy and Backfire, and all the att points that most people lodge with Critical Strikes put instead into Domination Magic. What I'd typically do on Shing Jea was make a beeline for enemy assassins, Empathy them while I was approaching... and then combo them while they simultaneously spiked themselves with the Empathy (doing more damage to themselves than to me). They died quick as you like... leaving me the breathing space to Shadow Refuge my health back. Then of course I'd Backfire and Empathy the nearest Monk... and killing them became a walk in the park.

O'course these days if I'm going A/Me then I skip the combos altogether and bring my Illusionary Weaponry... so I never use the Domination Spiker build any more (I've upgraded that general concept with my Spiteful Daggers build as an A/N)... but still.... It works a charm in certain circumstances.

Thats the advice I'd give..... go A/Me .... Its a favourite assassin combination for good reason (besides... ninjas are supposed to be masters of deception and illusion).
And don't forget... Secondary Classes exist for a reason: Exploit them. Don't be like all those purists who stock up exclusively on Assassin skills at the expense of all else... Assassins have the energy regen to be effective spellcasters, and sometimes all it takes is to stay out of battle, switch out a Staff and spam those nasty hexes on from a distance (before switching back to daggers and charging in to attack the weakened foe).

And as another piece of additional advice. If you travel with henchies / heroes.... remember this simple fact:
By default... if you have a melee weapon equipped, the henchies will gather behind you... and if you have a staff equipped, they gather around you. If you want to get in an early AoE hex / attack on a group of enemies before they've spotted you, select the nearest of them, equip daggers (to keep the henchies out of aggro range) and fire that skill. The first few seconds can make or break a battle, especially where AoE hexes are concerned (i.e. before the enemy group scatters outward).

FoxBat · Jan 19, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

And in PvP, spiking and mobility are obviously useful... therefore arguing against the usefulness of the assassin is a waste of time. Correct?

The assassin's "spike" is noteworthy that it can be pulled off with one character. It's also noteworthy that it's far slower and more fragile than any coordinate spike. It pwns alot of RA newbs and I have been farming glad points off of it, but even in arenas a good monk will completely own a sin regardless of who they target, unless they have some great pressure support from another character. I think it's possible to make an effective TA team with a sin spiker because again, there's usually just one monk to worry about and not so much aegis. But 2+ monks vs sin in 6v6 and up = gg.

I will add that sin's can be used in alliance battles/aspenwood as RA for simlar reasons, as there's often a lack of monks around a target (let alone good ones).

In PvE I have often run ranger variants of deadly promise w/ lightning reflexes, also an apply poison/jagged/wild strike/death blossom/mobious/steel blades(just to get you back to mobious when needed)/natural stride. These are somewhat less damage then a sin but far more survivable, and so much of the damage comes from conditions anyway. Either the ranger or sin version of these builds is OK for PvE I think (death blossom doing 80 armor-ignoring AoE 2 or 3 times per enemy is pretty nice, last I checked spiritual pain mesmers were pretty popular even though they often do less damage that way...)

P.S. you can just cast empathy/backfire on anything with a mesmer primary and the enemy will kill themselves. The asn combos with the mes hexes are fun but not particularly effective (outside of bosses) because 95% of PvE mobs will kill themselves on the above two hexes before they even expire. Unless you're into solo-farm of high-end areas with echo'd shadow form or something.

P.P.S. you can make that dead-dummy screenie with any char by just whittling down each target to low health and killing them at the same time. I realise this isn't what the deadly promise build does.