Curse

Muk Utep · Jan 10, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

I'm not aware of any warrior or dervish attack combinations that can do damage like BSS --> TF --> BLS --> BoS/DB/Moebius/whatever. Could you give some examples?

Something like Chilling Victory -> Erimite's Attack -> Mystic Sweep, if hitting more than one enemy, will do immense damage. That's three attacks, low-energy and relatively unconditional, on a profession that has a lot of other things to offer.

Standing Slash -> Galrath Slash -> Sun and Moon Slash -> Dragon Slash (can often be repeated without pause) can do pretty decent damage too. Again your opponents don't need to be hexed, knocked down, not adjacent to an ally and so on, plus you don't fold over if you take a bit of a beating.

Muk Utep · Jan 10, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

I'm not aware of any warrior or dervish attack combinations that can do damage like BSS --> TF --> BLS --> BoS/DB/Moebius/whatever. Could you give some examples?

Something like Chilling Victory -> Erimite's Attack -> Mystic Sweep, if hitting more than one enemy, will do immense damage. That's three attacks, low-energy and relatively unconditional, on a profession that has a lot of other things to offer.

Standing Slash -> Galrath Slash -> Sun and Moon Slash -> Dragon Slash (can often be repeated without pause) can do pretty decent damage too. Again your opponents don't need to be hexed, knocked down, not adjacent to an ally and so on, plus you don't fold over if you take a bit of a beating.

clawofcrimson · Jan 10, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

the point of assasins is to dish out this damage QUICKLY ...hopefully taking out the target in a matter of seconds.... other melee chars (to my knowledge) cant dish out bleeding, deep wound and poison in a matter of 3 seconds.... and then retreat/heal to leave the clean up work for others.... if this is your playing style...id say the sin is a good choice.

FoxBat · Jan 10, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

other melee chars (to my knowledge) cant dish out bleeding, deep wound and poison in a matter of 3 seconds....

Melandru's dervish, apply poison, wearying strike. (Well, 2 out of 3, and AoE as well.)

Both factions classes are just far more situational and easily countered than the 2 Nightfall professions, I think ANet learned their lesson about trying to make the expansion professions too narrow.

Dutch Masterr · Jan 10, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

dont do tons of damage? assassins outdamage warriors and dervish...theres just no question about it. in my opinion, assassins do the highest spike damage of any class (or maybe just melee/ranger classes)

can your warrior or dervish inflict a deep wound, bleeding, poison, blind and knockdown in under 5 seconds? i doubt that.

the reason why some people dont like assassins is because they may be used to other classes with higher survivability. an assassin does have survivability, but it isnt like the other classes. their survivability consists of either killing a target before they can react, or getting in and out at a very fast speed. the real trick to an assassin (especially in pvp) is to constantly monitor your surroundings...check to see what classes your up against, see what builds they are using and then pick the most vulnerable target or target that is the biggest threat....attack targets that are already distracted doing something.

Muk Utep · Jan 10, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

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dont do tons of damage? assassins outdamage warriors and dervish...theres just no question about it. in my opinion, assassins do the highest spike damage of any class (or maybe just melee/ranger classes)

can your warrior or dervish inflict a deep wound, bleeding, poison, blind and knockdown in under 5 seconds? i doubt that.

I'm fully aware that assassins can deal a lot of damage, and has the potential for possibly the most damage in the game. It's just not practical or reliable enough, and the profession doesn't have much of anything else to offer, so that damage isn't worth as much. You're also doing only single-target damage; it'll never compare to a dervish hitting three targets, a SF spammer hitting a whole group of enemies, or a well-built barrage ranger who gets to repeatedly hit 5+ targets. And those characters can usually do something else, either reliable self-defence or party support in some form. Neither would I consider that supposedly insane damage worth it when compared to a 100+ armor tank with shouts that help the whole party, or someone who can sit at a near-permanent max regen, various area effect tools and whatever else the dervish is capable of. I'm not saying assassins are useless, but to say that their damage makes up for everything they lack is, in my opinion, a misconception.

Quote:

constantly monitor your surroundings...check to see what classes your up against, see what builds they are using and then pick the most vulnerable target or target that is the biggest threat....attack targets that are already distracted doing something.

That's an accurate description of just about any offensive character you can make, with a few exceptions for specific builds.

ACreator · Jan 10, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

like me In Ra..

1 on 1..

i was burning but with feignted neutrality to counter it....

I was off the circle of the other team SFlamer but the only way i could kill him and win, because feigtned was endeing was killing him ( wich had all HP) in about 4~5 secs..

guess what.... that only a sin can do

i did at least..

Sqube · Jan 10, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Muk Utep, that Dervish attack series definitely does hefty damage, as does the Warrior chain. The Dervish attacks do not, however, place poison, bleeding, and deep wound on your opponent.

The Warrior spike can not immediately be started because you need at least six strikes of adrenaline to start, and 10 to hit Sun and Moon Slash.

The Assassin, on the other hand, can jump into you right away. The most you're likely to get is to see the hex cast on your person. If it's a Shadow Prison/Burst of Aggression build, he'll just show up in your face and start rocking your world.

I do believe that an Assassin's individual spike ability is unparalleled in terms of not only how much damage can be done, but how quickly it can be done.

That said, an Assassin's ability to attack is far more situational and conditional than anyone else, most likely as a direct result of the fact that they can put down major pain with the quickness.

rebirthofdragon · Jan 10, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I took all your suggestions into consideration and came up with this:

Healing: 12
Daggers: 12
Shadow: 3

Skills: Golden Phoenix Strike, Horns of Ox, Falling Spider, Death Blossom, Golden Lotus Strike(for energy), Return, Live Vicariously, Resurrect Chant

I am more careful about target selection and I actually seems to be able to stay alive with this build, which makes playing more fun.

The 4 skills are a bit more versatile than the normal 3-skill combo, which also makes fighting less boring.

Epinephrine · Jan 10, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Treat it like a wammo, let them hate that you use an enchant to stay alive more, but have fun.

Worst advice possible.
Assassins are not warriors, and shouldn't be played like one.
Using mobility skills, get in, deal damage, pull out if it's dangerous. That works wonders even in PvE, assassinating (geez, you think it's related?) a healer or caster in the back, then escaping before you get into too much trouble. Hit+run. Tanking assassins are a bad idea; sure, you might get away with it from time to time, but don't expect the monk to put up with it forever. Eventually he'll decide that keeping 3 others alive rather than the tanking assassin is a good bet.

Dutch Masterr · Jan 10, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

AoE is not an assassins job. youre saying they are useless in pve because they cant attack multiple targets....well first of all they can, but their main job in pve is to take out backline casters such as monks, elementalists, etc. if you choose to, you can set up to deal more consistant damage like warrior...example...

leaping mantis sting, wild strike, death blossom, palm strike, critical strike, return, dash, shadow refuge/feigned neutrality.

that build does a hell of alot of damage and can be spammed over and over again (with zealous daggers). that whole combo has a fast recharge time. or sub out leaping mantis for jagged strike. also, only if certain builds (like shadow prison) gets interupted, the rest of the combo is screwed. you can use a build involving moebius strike which makes you able to spam dual attacks non stop..even if the combo gets interupted.

JYX · Jan 10, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

True an assassin shouldn't be played like a warrior, in PvE though, "assassinating" 1 guy really isn't anything to get excited about when there's an entire mob you need killed. I would bring a dragon slasher over this for greater sustained DPS every time. Also teleporting does tend to screw up aggro, if you play PvE that way.

Burst of Aggression sins I don't like at all. Gankers want mending touch, and something like Disrupting Dagger helps much more with ganking than putting out your combo faster, it's not like the archer is going anywhere. Pretty much the only place I've seen them is RA, and even then they never trouble me as a monk. Teleporting in RA seems so pointless when the arena is that small and positioning so unimportant. A thumper with daze on his bar would trouble me much more in 4v4 format.

lightblade · Jan 10, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Melandru's dervish, apply poison, wearying strike. (Well, 2 out of 3, and AoE as well.)

Both factions classes are just far more situational and easily countered than the 2 Nightfall professions, I think ANet learned their lesson about trying to make the expansion professions too narrow.

Here's an even faster condition applying

[skill]Apply Poison[/skill] + [skill]Leaping Mantis Sting[/skill] + [skill]Temple Strike[/skill] + [skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill] = Poison + Cripple + (Blind + Daze) + (Bleeding + Deep Wound) = 6 conditions

SilentFry · Jan 11, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Well, the sin is mainly built for pvp, IMO. the reason i thnk everyone hates the sin is because it requires a much higher awarness and decision making lvl than most proffessions. Things like, if i attack, what is my survivability level, will it be higher later or now? Ok, there is an interrpt but there is a monk, monk is higher priority but interrpt might screw me up, so i should wait until the interrpt is busy with someone else then kill the monk. Another thing is knowing thier skill bar, EX: Ok, this necro is an SV, I should keep out of his range, keep an eye on him and kill him oppertunnity comes. I can go on and on about all the different things you have to be aware of. I hate to say this, but a good sin player must have ALOT of things in the back of his mind. All this is learned from a long-time sin player or someone that has actually bothered to play the sin. Case is, people just don't bother, peroid.

FoxBat · Jan 11, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Sin's generally aren't seen in PvP formats where at least 2 monks are common. That's because mend ailment, restore condition, even purge signet easily negates the sin's best weapon, quick condition application, and even if those are unavaliable, its not hard to heal through the temporary conditions, because it still takes time to die from -7 degen. A coordinated adrenal spike does the job much faster than degen ever could, and as have been shown, warriors can take advantage of shadow stepping themselves easily enough.

It works in arenas because you can shut the sole monk down if he doesen't happen to have guardian up, it works in GvG for ganking and that only, and it works in AB where things are generally disorganized and solo duels are common. You never, ever see sins in HA for a reason, and you won't see them being used in GvG outside of a gank strategy for the same reason.

They can work in PvE but outside of the two spam elites asn's promise and mobious strike plus some serious e-management, most monk critters are just too bad at their job to spend an entire party slot on any kind of single-target spike damage rather than consistent DPS.

Muk Utep · Jan 11, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

AoE is not an assassins job. youre saying they are useless in pve because they cant attack multiple targets....well first of all they can, but their main job in pve is to take out backline casters such as monks, elementalists, etc. if you choose to, you can set up to deal more consistant damage like warrior...example...

No, I never said that. In fact I believe I said the opposite - I don't believe assassins are useless, but I don't find their damage good enough to compensate for their lack of just about anything else.

Quote:

leaping mantis sting, wild strike, death blossom, palm strike, critical strike, return, dash, shadow refuge/feigned neutrality.

that build does a hell of alot of damage and can be spammed over and over again (with zealous daggers). that whole combo has a fast recharge time. or sub out leaping mantis for jagged strike. also, only if certain builds (like shadow prison) gets interupted, the rest of the combo is screwed. you can use a build involving moebius strike which makes you able to spam dual attacks non stop..even if the combo gets interupted.

No, that build does moderately good damage to a single target, and one of the skills has a TWELVE SECOND cooldown timer. It also costs 25 energy to execute the chain, minus whatever you gain from zealous and criticals. I suppose we don't agree on what "spamming" means. And any build that relies on any of the conditions that I mentioned in a previous post can and will be easily interrupted. I'm not talking about codedly interrupted, as in when you get hit with Distracting Shot, I'm talking about anything that makes your chain of attacks fail, such as what easily happens to the popular Horns of the Ox + Falling Spider, or any build that relies on Assassin's Promise or Moebius Strike.

As for self defense, most of these are in Shadow Disciplines, and assassins are already somewhat limited in their attribute choices since they usually need 12 Daggers and a pretty high Critical too. Shadow Refuge is decent at topping off your hp bar but it won't save you in a situation where you're under real pressure. Feigned Neutrality is not reliable with its 25 second recharge. Critical Defenses is against physical attacks only, and can easily be prevented by anything from blinding to kiting to stances and so on. Shadow stepping in PvE is wonky enough as it is, and while something like Return can be mildly useful, I wouldn't want to risk bringing those enemies back to the softie backline that you just presumably shadowstepped to.

My general feeling is that assassins are best against the combat dummies on the Isle of the Nameless, and lose a lot of their perceived potential the more you analyze the profession and its skills. There really is a reason why they're so rarely seen in PvP (and usually brought just for killing NPCs), and usually unpopular in PvE because there are simply better options. I doubt anyone has ever thought "we need an assassin for this".

$hade. · Jan 11, 2007, 05:23 AM // 05:23

I made an expertise assasin R/A and kicked arse with him. The reduced energy really helps in spamming attacks. I took out warriors and everythting basically (Cept some air ele's and stuff. Blindness ftl

). Also people said to me "Wtf, what's a ranger doing with daggers?".

Yanman.be · Jan 11, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

I took all your suggestions into consideration and came up with this:

Healing: 12
Daggers: 12
Shadow: 3

Skills: Golden Phoenix Strike, Horns of Ox, Falling Spider, Death Blossom, Golden Lotus Strike(for energy), Return, Live Vicariously, Resurrect Chant

I am more careful about target selection and I actually seems to be able to stay alive with this build, which makes playing more fun.

The 4 skills are a bit more versatile than the normal 3-skill combo, which also makes fighting less boring.

Where's your critical strikes?

Sqube · Jan 11, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Is there a combination for Assassins more spammable than [skill]Jagged Strike[/skill], [skill]Wild Strike[/skill], [skill]Critical Strike[/skill], [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill]?

Yanman.be · Jan 11, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

No, but why would you do that?