Curse

Samurai-JM · Apr 24, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

The above is not my personal opinion, I'm quite with the mesmer/ranger crowd, but the importance of a good warrior is such a large factor... then again, it's expected for the whole team to be good, no? Generalising a bit: Warrior (Offense, callers, spikes), mesmer (AEGIS GO DOWN KK?), and splits (die solo to NPCs, just try, see who kicks you first) tend to show the skill of a player most obviously. Then again, this is my own opinion. Obviously the skill of each player becomes apparant after a while, but a warrior > sin in that respect. Sin = Proper Tactical Choices, Warriors = Proper Tactical Choices + Utility + Calling + More Emphasis on Positioning + Constant,ie not once per 20 seocnd pressure/spikes.

Sin = Proper tactical choices, see below pretty much.

Ultility (CAN tank, I've already done it in many areas of hard mode, can shut down, can spike, can DPS, can spread condtions, can even cast from afar)

Calling (who can't do this? Any character, melee or ranged, tanker or caster, can call targets. I do this often since I usually take the lead role in PUGs when I enter them)

Positioning (I'll admit warriors are better for positioning, meaning standing in an area while the others shoot from afar, but Sins can still do that, plus shadow stepping. although many argue that this ruins positioning, I say it helps very much to jump around in a crowd and get in/out of the fight)

Constant DPS (I'm not going to say Moebius/DB, although it does work very effectively, there are still many better ways to hold DPS. Nearly all assassin attacks spawn in 8 seconds or less, not including the ones commonly used in spikes which take up to 12 or 15 seconds. A great DPS build with high survivability is simply AoD -> Unsuspecting Strike -> Wild Strike -> Death Blossom. It's spammable, easily maintained with zealous daggers and critical strikes, and other e-management skills can be added if thats a problem. Most assassin attacks do much more pressure than they are given credit for.)

About the 20 second spikes, that is not so in my own case. I Always use the Assassin's Promise version of that build in PvE, and I am very effective with it. Very, VERY rarely do I miss with the hex, and if I'm worried about Hex Breaker, just cast Dark Prison first. I would love to see a warrior go in alone and wipe out an entire FoW mob in under 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Aside from spiking, what else can a sin do? Obviously, you can decide to put horns in instead of blades, and other stuff, but in the end it's the same thing, isn't it? Aren't we discussing about personal skill here? Not Build Wars?

Note: I don't mind Moebius + DB, but whatever.

Already posted many examples above, Spiking, Tanking, DPS with shadowstep/run skills, Shutdown, Even Crit Barrager(although I don't really count it as a Sin build, it works.) What do warriors do? Swing a sword, axe, or hammer around and wear high armor. Ok they can do positioning, but what is that? Standing in a spot so the bad guys don't hit you? Anyone can do that, including an assassin.

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Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Sorry, an ele can drop two, three, four, five, a warrior can do what a sin can, at twice the speed or more, and then the trapper can own face. Let's just compare it to an SF team.

Thats like comparing Searing Flames and Energy Surge. A fire ele is made to nuke, I doubt anyone will argue that. A warrior kill twice as fast as a sin? I'd love to see that. I've never seen any warrior come even close to killing as fast as any assassin. Whether it be Eviscerate->Executioners or Sever->Gash->Final, nothing a warrior can do in killing speed compares to a good assassin.

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Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Sins do not promote teamwork as much as warriors, mesmers, and pretty much every other class.

Perhaps true in some cases, spiker sins are made to go out ahead of the group and take out enemies, but a good assassin knows to wait until the group has aggro and the heavier armored characters are up in the battle before rushing in. By doing this an assassin can pick off the enemies giving monks or tanks trouble without getting into much trouble of his own. Many other variants of assassins are used in team spike builds, some shutdown the enemy, some spike, and some tank. MOST assassins sadly don't understand this concept, but trust me assassins are very much a part of the team.

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Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Are you sure? Please back up this statement. Afaik I was henchwaying THK as well last night in hard mode. Then it got boring. Let's not compare "LOLO I HAVE X AMOUNT OF FAME/EXP/GLADPOINTS", and back it up with evidence.

Not sure what you mean, but I henched... Everything in elona with my sin. Masters on every mission that didn't require more than one person with them, then pugged the remaining 1 or 2. Then proceded to hench masters across cantha, and I'm nearly done with tyria. I also happen to be the only frontline character in the entire team of henches/heros. Me, a monk, a shutdown nec/mes, an ele, then random assortments of support heros depending on the area. My AP build wipes out areas just fine with a little backup and defense in the backline. The ability to be spiking enemies 100% with exactly 0 seconds of downtime is pretty amazing.

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Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

It's okay, we know what "spiking" means, but thanks for the effort, professor.

Said it many, many times, assassins do more than spike. The community just happens to not know any better. In HM I currently use either an A/Rt with Vital Weapon + Wielders boon, or an A/D with crit defenses and mystic regen. Both successfully tank/surive/kill pretty much anything HM throws at me.

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Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

As opposed to harder? Also-- let's attack the same target while they are under mark of protection or healing hands!

If an enemy puts up one of those, just don't attack it for 10 seconds. No big deal. Even on spikers when the enchantment wears off most of their combo will be recharged so they can go at it again. If the entire party starts attacking a monk under MoP, it's not the assassin's fault that it isn't dying. Teamwork is a key part of the game though, and against a mob, having a few eles take that top 15-20% off the health bar, or having a mesmer/necro rip apart enchantments and lay down hexes before you spike is a very nice addition, and simply ensures the kill.

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Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

And what exactly does the sin here do anything that another player cannot?

TBH any character can do anything. Mesmers can be tanks, paragons can be spikers, warriors can be monks. Stranger things have been done, and on occasion have worked. But the point of GW is balance, and although most will argue that Anet hasn't done the best job of balancing the game, every profession CAN do pretty much anything, but each one has its own effective strengths and weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

"... or this will be the shortest offensive in history"
or whatever it was.

? Making battles end in your favor is bad? Not sure what you mean here. I like to kill stuff really fast.

In short, Assassins are great.

Not meant to be the first character a player makes though, this was a huge mistake when they were released. Assassins should be used mainly by experienced players with skill in tactics and high speed battles. Not an easy profession, but very fun, and deadly in the right hands.

WTB_Brain · Apr 24, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

dude dont talk so good about assassins some GM might nurf them... i pwnall with my A/idonttellwhatitsasecret ...

c yaw... never talk too much good about a prof

Ecklipze · Apr 24, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Every character proffesion complains about 'hate' at one time or another...

Francis Demeules · Apr 24, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecklipze

Every character proffesion complains about 'hate' at one time or another...

I agree with that, and I'm sure this will continue even in GW2 anyway.

I'm out

Takuna · Apr 24, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Amen Samurai-JM. I agree with everything there... Except the wiping a FoW mob in under 10 seconds. How do you DO that?

What skills? What team setup? Spill! I can't do that place with the awful lag on this computer, any edge would rock!

LightningHell · Apr 24, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

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Originally Posted by I I I Inferno I I I

ahh here we go again........

dude ur still living back in 2006. 20 seconds? Where did you get that from???
ohhh, thats right! Sp/BoA! how many ppl do you think use Sp today? -_-

What do you mean personal skill? Time yourself on when to attack!? Well duuh! If this wouldn't be Build Wars then we wouldn't have the skill bar! This would baisically turn into WoW with 9999999999kazillion skills that cover 9/10 of your screen, or one of those crappy star wars games! And that what makes GW special :P

And about the speed... I think you mixed it up

, its the other way around.

Sin is 2 times harder 2 times funner and if you are a veteran sin its 4 times easyer in pvp and pve because you know what you're doing unlike some warriors that I have met who go from offhand attack to Lead then to Dual in no particular order, and thats why you hate sins so much! Because you didnt figure out how to play the sin properly from day1!

SP/BoA is well and alive today. Personal skill would include positioning, battlefield awareness, twitch reflexes, etc. Build Wars means that effectively it isn't you who's winning, it's your build that's winning. For example, spike.

I'm pretty sure in any PvE scenario, a Warrior would drop targets quite a bit quicker than a sin due to constant pressure.

Just a note on not playing the sin properly for day 1...Silk has been playing the sin for nearly a year now in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

So Silk Weaver has major aggression issues. I don't really feel like responding to any of his tirade of abuse...

I did notice this though:

Quite simply... Entangling Asp might need a lead but doesn't count as an Off-Hand... thus even after using it the Lead Attack icon still remains on the target, and any Off-Hand can follow it.
The same goes with Blinding Powder, which follows an Off-Hand but isn't technically a Dual-Attack.... allowing you to go Off-Hand => Blinding Powder => Dual Attack.

Deadly Paradox...
... And immunity to anti-melee skills.

Just thought I'd point those out. ^_^

Thanks for pointing those out, although it hardly changes anything I say. You are still vulernable to anti-melee skills due to Twisting Fangs.

Actually, many PvPers are suggesting overhauling the Dagger Mastery line and buffing the Deadly/Shadow lines so it's a viable support-ish character.

I'll post more stuff later.

Silk Weaver · Apr 25, 2007, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

So Silk Weaver has major aggression issues.

Not really, while I'm not aiming to be nice, you will see that I am driven as much by my sense of justice (read: PvP Elitism) as my desire to lay down the facts, open them to question in an attempt to prove my point. You can choose to dislike me, ask me not to be a douche, but to not counter the arguments laid down, you are, in essense forfeiting a truth that you obviously believe in.

That said, I think you're wrong.

^^

Samurai!

Okay let's start here:

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Sin = Proper tactical choices

I've actually endangered what little respect I deserved by saying that these tactical choices should take precedence over personal skills and therefore sins aren't as skillless as sometimes portrayed, blah blah. See me as a moderate. You're not convincing me though.

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Ultility (CAN tank, I've already done it in many areas of hard mode, can shut down, can spike, can DPS, can spread condtions, can even cast from afar)

Not very well. Its most efficienct utility, recall and disrupting dagger, for example, are arguably as effective on a sin as they are on warriors and other classes. Some of the assassin skills I think are really nifty, but the class itself...

About tanking... sorry, I refer merely to PvP. For PvE, Shadow Form is indeed a viable option for both running, farming, and mission play (the latter is a bit pointless though, as Obsidian Flesh is more popular for a reason). For PvP though... well, let's just say critical defense only works on noobs.

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Calling

You can call with a paragon, but it is difficult for a mesmer, ranger, or monk to be the main caller (some amount of it could still happens, of course, but this is not a discussion about calling) because they have their own concerns, rather they support the caller by providing information. A paragon or warrior is effective at calling pressure, positioning, and spikes because that's exactly what a warrior does, and it fits the mindset. Now, an assassin is pretty useless on flagstand teams to start with (seriously, press B), not to mention you don't really want to do anything more than lineback when not spiking (overextending sin, yay?). It can be done... so? I don't even know why I was talking about it, I think I just mentioned it because. Oh right, a flagstand assassin doesn't really need to listen to half the calls.

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Constant DPS

I've already said in another thread that the need to change targets very quickly (read:very very quickly) for it to be efficienct. How ironic, too, that I was the first one who wrote an Unsus > Wild > DB chain on Guild Wiki. At least I think so, hm, could be my memory. But yes, that chain was pretty neat damage, but if it was worth it, you'd think we'd be using it now, right?

We're -not- using it now, just to clarify. You don't understand warrior DPS if you think its much stronger than Dragonslash, Cripslash > Gash > Final, or even a Thumper.

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Assassin's Promise

Again, PvE

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Spiking, Tanking, DPS with shadowstep/run skills, Shutdown, Even Crit Barrager

Spiking, as mentioned, takes less skill and versatility as a warrior, dervish, and paragon. Tanking, this is not PvE plx. DPS, also dealth with before, shutdown... what, you mean KD? What about Backbreaker? Earthshaker? Bull's Strike? Crit Barrager, against, PvE.

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What do warriors do? Swing a sword, axe, or hammer around and wear high armor.

Firstly, you do not understand the role of a warrior.

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Ok they can do positioning, but what is that?

Secondly you do not understand positioning and tactics.

Please stop bastardizing the class. Yes, it is a stereotypical view, big burly men smashing people to bits. This essentially is what it is but, the tactics involved have to do with the threat of being smashed to bits, various counters to that, and various ways to over-coming that counter, which essentially still leads to smashing them to bits, but isn't that what we're all trying to do?

Think rugby (right right, football) tactics, where they draw on the blackboard. What are the players? Big men capable of crushing you with their weight. What do they do when they reach you? Take the ball away from you and stop you, in a way similar to a warrior trying to get you killed. Yes, I don't play the sport, but I hope this analogy is correct, but are you suggesting that since all a player does when they reach an opposing one is tackle him it makes the game purely physical with little to do with tactics?

Guildwars becomes a even more complicated than that with the introduction of two things. Firstly, everyone is as strong as each other, just as fast, so less emphasis on that, secondly, skills (frenzy) and classes (mezmar) makes the decision of who to attack, how to coordinate an attack, how to fool the enemy and waste their resources (pressure), and other things more dynamic.

Through threats (If you've PvEed in old ascalon with 3 monk grawls and 2 backbreakers, plus other fun stuff, you know what I mean), pressure warrior does a lot more than attack someone. A warrior standing next to you is a gun, loaded or not depends, but it may very well be. Backbreaker on monk, eviserate and final thrust on frenzy war a second later while said monk is being healed. Done.

An ASSASSIN on the other hand, does very little besides, at least as far as the metagame is concerned. Shadow Prisoning the flagger works, and spiking off targets, but that's it. I give them a lot more credit while on splits, but I'm assuming that we're not discussing splits.

I'm not exactly an expereinced PvPer as top tier GvG goes, but this is my understanding, and I think it's close enough, someone correct me.

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Searing Flames and Energy Surge

That's because energy surge sucks

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nothing a warrior can do in killing speed compares to a good assassin

Not true. Time for some evidence.

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but a good assassin knows to wait until the group has aggro and the heavier armored characters are up in the battle before rushing in

You're talking PvP again! Tactics is more than letting the aggro settle in! While PvE does take a small amount of intelligence, what you call tactics there is nothing compared to that of a PvP enviroment. They do not promote team work in the sense of movement and coordination. They do but not as much, as I have said. Not nearly enough, too.

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Not sure what you mean, but I henched... Everything in elona with my sin. Masters on every mission that didn't require more than one person with them, then pugged the remaining 1 or 2. Then proceded to hench masters across cantha, and I'm nearly done with tyria. I also happen to be the only frontline character in the entire team of henches/heros. Me, a monk, a shutdown nec/mes, an ele, then random assortments of support heros depending on the area. My AP build wipes out areas just fine with a little backup and defense in the backline. The ability to be spiking enemies 100% with exactly 0 seconds of downtime is pretty amazing.

Eeeeego. We're here to use logical arguments to prove points, not your acheivements, and if we do do that, I think I'd win any day, but that's just an assumption of mine. You must be skimming what I wrote because I stated clearly that my intentions is to steer the discussion away from comparing sizes.

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More PvE stuff

Jesus, it's PvE, you can use most anything and still do okay.

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TBH any character can do anything.

Okay, go organize a GvG team with 8 assassins, kk?

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?

It's a reference to Lando from Star Wars.

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Build Wars means that effectively it isn't you who's winning, it's your build that's winning. For example, spike.

Or a Cripslash split against a Ranger. ^^

Anyway, agreeing with someone does not strengthen their point. A lot of idiots agreeing to something does not make that something true. Democracy doesn't work in debates. Perhaps afterwards, but not during.

While what you're doing is fine, I can't help but feel disgusted at people trying to strengthen their position by insulting people holding difference views and glorifying those who don't. Happens on forums all the time, oh wel. For the record, all my snide remarks are made tongue-in-cheek, I was hoping that was obvious enough.

Doesn't matter, in the end, Rangers > All. YOU KNOW IT.

Takuna · Apr 25, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

I don't understand, you've just gone through a list and tried to prove that assassins suck in PvP, something that almost anyone would disagree with... In doing so, however, you've made the assassin look shiney for PvE, which is exactly where assassins recieve all the hate. We're saying that people hate the PvE assassins and yet here you are running down the assassin in PvP, in which a lot of the better players would agree that the assassins potential is very good.

LightningHell · Apr 25, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

I think you misunderstood him.

1) He wasn't commenting on PvE assassins at all, I don't think he said anything either way. If anything, he attacked them with saying anything works in PvE.

2) He wasn't saying that Assassins sucked. He was saying that they were badly designed and don't require skill, something nearly all of the better players would agree.

Takuna · Apr 25, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

I, and many 'better players' tend tend to disagree... Oh sure, if you run in, unload, hit the heal skill and run like heck then sure... If you're playing that rubbishly, of course it's easy.

And the majority of players haven't been playing since GW Prophecies came out, so not everyone finds ALL PvE a complete breeze...

SotiCoto · Apr 25, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Not really, while I'm not aiming to be nice, you will see that I am driven as much by my sense of justice (read: PvP Elitism) as my desire to lay down the facts, open them to question in an attempt to prove my point. You can choose to dislike me, ask me not to be a douche, but to not counter the arguments laid down, you are, in essense forfeiting a truth that you obviously believe in.

That said, I think you're wrong.

^^

I'm not really concerned about "right" and "wrong" at the present. They're subjective terms and as such attempting to argue one way or the other is irrelevant.
I voice my own personal experiences... and express what I know works. Whether you disagree or not doesn't matter a shred to me... and it is all the less important if you can't even criticise it logically without resorting to ad hominem. Why should I care for your desire to have your "arguments laid down" countered if you couldn't do it yourself in the first place?

But since we're on the matter... I also don't give a toss what you say because you're only a PvPer.... a player of what is basically a glorified school-yard game for kids.... and as such are beneath my notice. =P

Have a nice day.

Silk Weaver · Apr 25, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Haha, two issues, one arugeable, one not.

Firstly, I am not only a PvPer.

Secondly, how is PvE not a school-yard game? It is competition against each other, atteempting to outwit, outplay, and straight out own the opposition. See sports, see the business, see life. What you are doing, however, is killing things that are made to be killed.

Why am I "only a PvPer", exactly? Are you saying that you're a better PvEer than I? You've quite an ego to make such an assumption. Which part of what I've said suggests that I don't know how PvE works? Of course, my personal belief is that if you're good at PvP (or PvE), then you probably have a good grasp of the game's workings and is smart enough to be good at the other as well. Then, seeing what you say, I made the assumption that you're not. I'm afraid I'm a better PvEer and PvPer than you at the same time. How sad. I do not say sins suck because I suck at it. FYI, I have every profession PvEd (Level 20, beat 2 to all campaigns) with the exception of monk, necro, and paragons, which, having played those anyhow, I don't think makes much of a differnece.

If you really want to compare... look, I don't care. You really think I'm a worse PvEer, go ahead, but if you want to find the "truth", you better think harder before deciding if someone is wrong or not. Truth is not subjective, the interpretation of truth is. To simply say that someone's interpretation is wrong whenever an argument pops up... huh.

Your comments are quite strange. I and many others have put forth numerous comments as to why Assassins are not a good idea, and various other comments. I am not being vague, I simply could not be bothered to do a summary, you can go stop being lazy and read them. I'm afraid that none of them have truly been coutnered, no real response of been made, any response that -have- been made have been, say, rebuked? You can continue on and explain to me how an assassin are good in PvE, what they do that other classes can't do as well, etc, but I don't think you have a very good chance there.

Shuuda · Apr 25, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

I'd like to point out SotiCoto, 90% of the time it takes more skill to win it in PvP than it does PvE, so beneath you I highly doubt.

Avarre · Apr 25, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

and it is all the less important if you can't even criticise it logically without resorting to ad hominem. Why should I care for your desire to have your "arguments laid down" countered if you couldn't do it yourself in the first place?

But since we're on the matter... I also don't give a toss what you say because you're only a PvPer.... a player of what is basically a glorified school-yard game for kids.... and as such are beneath my notice. =P

Stop talking.

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Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Jesus, it's PvE, you can use most anything and still do okay.

Basically. Any and all arguments using 'it works in PvE' as evidence are completely baseless, for the same reason PvP does not regard RA evidence. Anything works there - if you want to prove a point you need to actually be able to evaluate the class, its capabilities, and its role with regards to the fundamental design and group method in PvE.

Furthermore, saying 'you don't understand the potential of the class because you are bad!' is somewhat valid. However, I've heard this a rediculous number of times over the Mesmer. Almost every time, it's more likely that the person using the argument is guilty of the first problem - they think because it works it is good, and are not able of understanding the game. It's ok though, random people can claim they're awesome without evidence too.

If I had any power here, I would lock this as there is no discussion anymore, only a penis length debate that goes round and round. But anyways..

PvE;

Deal damage.
Halt damage.

Those are the goals, split into 'tank, nuke, healer'.
These are further split into 'tank, dps, offensive disruption, protection and passive defence, healing'.

How many areas does the Assassin fit into in PvE? DPS, O.D. to a minor extent.

Your DPS is single target to a large extent, while placing yourself in a critical location. As in a great deal of areas aggro is not completely held, this provides a threat. Unless a player with a good deal of intelligence is playing the class, it will act as a liability. This is one reason the class is not liked - the overall efficiency in terms of its successful areas is comparable to a warrior, but has none of the survivability of the warrior. The warrior, by being able to soak up more hits, reduces the damage on the party further - the assassin avoiding damage places the force on the rest of the party, serving less purpose.

People hating assassins might be the wrong frame of mind.

Assassins absolutely do work in PvE. This was never the issue - and just about everything does work there. However, they fit rather clumsily into the PvE model and therefore are less desireable, as their overall effectiveness is lower than the majority of other classes for that area. Hard mode might changes this, as the definitions of PvE are expanded to an extent. However, the fundamental problems of the assassin class remain as far as the PvE areas are concerned.

Silk Weaver · Apr 25, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

To Shuuda: Why are you so much more succint than I? Oh woe.

Here's a link to that 10%: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Random_Arenas#Rewards

No armor, no sync, no rez sig.

Anyway:

Someone asked the thread to be closed ^^

Do you magic.

Shuuda · Apr 25, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Well, Even RA takes more skill than Most PvE, one very lucky streak proves nothing, and anything higher than RA takes further skill.

Silk Weaver · Apr 25, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I was trying to show that RA proves nothing, that's all. Lots of people use "I got a glad point with it" to validate their build, which may or may not include mending, vigorous spirit, and various other cool stuff.

I may very well also be starting my GW Porn career.

Either one, take your pick.

LightningHell · Apr 25, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

The thread has lost its purpose, with neither side accepting each other's viewpoints. Further discussion is unnecessary. If you have any questions, enquiries, or requests, please inform me via private messaging.

Closed.