Curse

LightningHell · Apr 23, 2007, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poki#3

Ha. There's really not many people that can out argument me ^^

No offense, but why no one can argue with you (judging from your posts) is that because you haven't made any points yet... ^_^;;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Demeules

I have already seen to do that about the mesmers, so I think about Sins if they did the same thing.

I don't frequent GuildWiki, so I don't know what about that side of the world.

But if you think Mesmers are not used in PvE just because people are stupid and like to diss them...

...http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10129170

Don't know if that applies to Hard Mode since the 4~ish days it came out.

Francis Demeules · Apr 23, 2007, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I don't frequent GuildWiki, so I don't know what about that side of the world.

Its just a point that many team want you to require a build from guildwiki to do a mission, farm, etc. And if you dont have that build, they kick you out in less than 2 seconds.

Quote:

But if you think Mesmers are not used in PvE just because people are stupid and like to diss them...

...http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10129170

Don't know if that applies to Hard Mode since the 4~ish days it came out.

Really off topic but its for LightningHell

I already read what Avarre writed before and I never said they're not used in PvE, I just said I see people used the "Mouth to Ears" trick, like the mesmer before when the first GW comes out (which I forgot to put that) and said they sucked. Yes they're underused, everyone knows that, but not underpicked. About the Hard mode, I really found easy to play with mesmer seriously.

Ok, I'm going for now, I dont want to be Off topic again. If you wish to talk about that, just send me a message in guru or in game.

Back to topic, no more like that here.

Takuna · Apr 23, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Actually, I don't mind people hating the assassin because idiots can't play them properly. It makes me feel cool to have gotten a 'hard' profession under my belt. It's like you can get some good mesmers out there, even in PvE and when you see them in action you really have to admire how well they handle themselves.

LightningHell · Apr 23, 2007, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takuna

Actually, I don't mind people hating the assassin because idiots can't play them properly. It makes me feel cool to have gotten a 'hard' profession under my belt. It's like you can get some good mesmers out there, even in PvE and when you see them in action you really have to admire how well they handle themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

I should say why I think it isn't a well thought out concept.

Firstly, single-man spikes don't promote player skill. Usual damage dealers, for example, Warriors, cannot spike down a near full-health character by themselves, and so a single-man spiking machine would have to have some kind of uber damage dealing skills. PvP should be primarily based on player skill, not on who can spam buttons faster on recharge. Assassins seem to reward too much for too little, and in the opposite end of the spectrum, too little for too much.

Of course, there are some offshoots like the Moebius Strike-Death Blossom, as mentioned above. However, this is very prone to any significant pressure, as a Warrior has effectively 10/30 more armor than the Assassin and can overextend more, as well as the Warrior's higher vaule in terms of disruption and other support.

An Assassin can be said to be a caster class instead of a melee class. That is, an Assassin isn't here unless he has skills with him. Casters can pressure, it has been proven that they can. But melee - specificially, Warriors - are valued simply because they are more flexible in terms of pressure, due to the added disruption and their main pressure not needing any resources - you simply flail your weapon, and you are already either 1) hitting somebody for damage or 2) making the opponent expend time and energy to neutralize you, as well as giving up minor positional advantage due to kiting. Assassins only constitute a threat when they expend energy; you could say that it's less profitable in terms of energy costs.

Since it cannot provide all that, the Assassin has one very powerful chain. This refers to the single-target spiking.

There are some given solutions from the community, including:
1) Making the Deadly Arts and Shadow Arts attributes more usable in terms of support
2) Create some form of Energy Management that does not require you to hit an opponent
3) Scrapping the combo system, and replace with reasonable conditional attacks (e.g. health is below 75%, target is moving/attacking/casting, etc. Hexed isn't good, for example, because as this prerequisite tends to require specific building, it is made conditionally better than other similar skills, and the start of a gimmick.)

That is not to say that an Assassin is an underpowered class. It fulfills what ANet wanted it to do, sometimes too well compared to the skill of the player running it, but crap at others.

Hope that explains it.

All I have to say to that.

Takuna · Apr 23, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Single-man spikes don't promote skill? No, of course they don't. Not if you die easily. Running into a mob in the Realm of Torment, being able to spike one enemy to death and still survive is skill. The warrior has tons of armour but the assassin has tons of heals, which people underestimate. I keep Shadow Refuge up at all times when in a hefty mob as well as critical defences. I use Feigned Neutrality to make getaways at an almost invincible AL. I mean really, I quarter plus healing and you're unlikely to attack or use skills while legging it. I'm coming from experience when I say that I can outsurvive most people on my team while at the same time making a big difference in firepower.

Yukito Kunisaki · Apr 23, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

I wonder why Deadly Arts sins aren't as prevalent [must be the SINS MUST MELEE mindset going around]

Well... As a test, I bet platinum for some groups telling them [I won't die like 90% of the melee sins and I can kill from safer zones: aka behind frontlines]

16 deadly arts using Dancing Daggers, Entangling Asp, Mantis Touch, Twisting Fangs, Impale

That usually results in a caster foe that's either guarunteed dead, or 3 seconds from it. It's also assuming Shrouded Armor [no need for AL bonuses due to the ranged nature of the build] (for the record, any assassin fighting warrior/melee type characters need to be lynched asap to prevent further stupidity from spreading. Warriors beat ALL melee classes for melee, they're the first, and in my opinion, the best.)

Only ONE of the attacks is melee based and Impale can be used as a retreating nuke after the combo lands. E. management comes in the form of Way of the Lotus or 2ndary skills.

Dagger assassins are all well and good, but in heated gameplay vs. either giant mobs or 'smart' PC people in PvP, fighting at half spell range is my idea of safer and useful. (again, avoiding hi AL types and I'm good)

Samurai-JM · Apr 23, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

I use a similar build Yukito, but with Death Blossom and Signet of Toxic Shock instead of Twisting Fangs. Works great.

Am I A Good Sin · Apr 23, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Yukito while it may be true for u or just an opinion as u stated I disagree with u. No single warrior has ever beaten me other than the occasionally good riposte warrior that caught me without expose defences and such

. I must say some warriors r rather good. And ill say that a warrior has a 40-80% survival rate in PvE while a sin has a 15- 60% ( these r based on what I've seen and experienced back when I started playing.... 1000 hrs just logged today ^^ in 10 months ). The sin has much more in both PvE and PvP than the dervish or warrior. A good sin player can unlock that potential and far surpass the warrior.an average sin player will most likely be under a warrior ( cept for a few rare cases where the sin gets lucky or something else occurs ). The warrior overall has better chances of making it in PvE and PvP. A sin can beat a warrior easy in both places depending on player skill. Same goes for warrior. Warrior is suited for certain places as is a sin. Everything depends on player skill ( in my opinion tho a warrior is boring and doesn't take much skill. Others disagree but u voiced ur opinion and I voiced mine so don't flame back since I've played warrior and understand it pretty well. Just seems boring to me ) well I've babbled on in incorrect grammar and everything ( I'm sure some1 is at the hospital by now ) so c ya later pplz.

Takuna · Apr 23, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

What he said. (Am I A Good Sin, in case I get beaten to the post.)

ensoriki · Apr 23, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

If they ever buff Shadow Refuges conditional heal to heal atleast 70-90 HP at 8 shadow arts I will Waste my money on A-net.
_____________

Anyways Assassin Survivalbility is great if you want to actually Bring it and with 2 survival skills or 3 the assassin is very hard to kill in PVE you don't NEED DeepWound ofcourse against bosses its much smarter to bring it

But with 3/2 survival skills and Rez sig with 4/5 attack slots open I don't see any reason assassions in PVE should let themselves be the first to die
__________
I just wish A-net would make Anything Naruto related BANNED from being a name -_-, makes life easier.

LightningHell · Apr 24, 2007, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

I wonder why Deadly Arts sins aren't as prevalent [must be the SINS MUST MELEE mindset going around]

Well... As a test, I bet platinum for some groups telling them [I won't die like 90% of the melee sins and I can kill from safer zones: aka behind frontlines]

16 deadly arts using Dancing Daggers, Entangling Asp, Mantis Touch, Twisting Fangs, Impale

That usually results in a caster foe that's either guarunteed dead, or 3 seconds from it. It's also assuming Shrouded Armor [no need for AL bonuses due to the ranged nature of the build] (for the record, any assassin fighting warrior/melee type characters need to be lynched asap to prevent further stupidity from spreading. Warriors beat ALL melee classes for melee, they're the first, and in my opinion, the best.)

Only ONE of the attacks is melee based and Impale can be used as a retreating nuke after the combo lands. E. management comes in the form of Way of the Lotus or 2ndary skills.

Dagger assassins are all well and good, but in heated gameplay vs. either giant mobs or 'smart' PC people in PvP, fighting at half spell range is my idea of safer and useful. (again, avoiding hi AL types and I'm good)

1 second + .75 aftercast + 1 second + .75 aftercast + .75 cast + .75 aftercast + 1.33 attack speed + 0.25 cast, totaling roughly 6.58 seconds, and it still has a possibility of being 3 seconds away from being dead.

Not good enough imo.

Also, how do you trigger Mantis Touch... Dancing Daggers (lead) -> Entangling Asp (Needs lead) -/-> Mantis Touch?

Aside from Deadly Arts Assassins being woefully second-rate, the other reason is because melee sins make more use from shadow steps. You can shadow step in from full range into melee; that a particular skill has 1/2 range or melee range has no difference. Besides, having 1 skill needing melee range basically means you need melee range, which means in turn you're not much safer than the dagger sin, if any.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Am I A Good Sin

Yukito while it may be true for u or just an opinion as u stated I disagree with u. No single warrior has ever beaten me other than the occasionally good riposte warrior that caught me without expose defences and such

. I must say some warriors r rather good. And ill say that a warrior has a 40-80% survival rate in PvE while a sin has a 15- 60% ( these r based on what I've seen and experienced back when I started playing.... 1000 hrs just logged today ^^ in 10 months ). The sin has much more in both PvE and PvP than the dervish or warrior. A good sin player can unlock that potential and far surpass the warrior.an average sin player will most likely be under a warrior ( cept for a few rare cases where the sin gets lucky or something else occurs ). The warrior overall has better chances of making it in PvE and PvP. A sin can beat a warrior easy in both places depending on player skill. Same goes for warrior. Warrior is suited for certain places as is a sin. Everything depends on player skill ( in my opinion tho a warrior is boring and doesn't take much skill. Others disagree but u voiced ur opinion and I voiced mine so don't flame back since I've played warrior and understand it pretty well. Just seems boring to me ) well I've babbled on in incorrect grammar and everything ( I'm sure some1 is at the hospital by now ) so c ya later pplz.

I'll just say whatever I've said before. Assassins in PvP do not require any skill other than universal skill that all classes require, and Assassins are not well off in PvE.

7thPawn · Apr 24, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Just posted a message in a post where people are talking about fav builds, and I have to say that I do not get a lot of love by people when I have to go get help, but with the build I have run into I don't need mission help often in PvE. For a while I had to agree that Assassins are bad off in PvE, but then I ran into the build I am now using and I tear stuff up at rather insane rates. If people want a whipping class, let them. The rest of us who are tearing stuff up in PvE will keep the secret and keep pretending that assassins suck in PvE. lol. Just my two cents on this topic.

Cheers

Takuna · Apr 24, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I'll just say whatever I've said before. Assassins in PvP do not require any skill other than universal skill that all classes require, and Assassins are not well off in PvE.

I'm sorry, that means that being, say, a mesmer is as easy as being a warrior... I always have my eye on my health, energy, enchantments, recharge times, enemy skills, etc. because I don't deal damage with every hit, I can't afford to stand that blankly, waiting for attacks to charge. Plus, with the attack chain, it's difficult to look for good skills that will fit with what you generally do, rather than saying 'this skill is good, this skill is good, this skill is good, this skill is good, yep, I'll have them all. Chaining requires more thinking... Ok, so warriors also need to plan their skills for energy cost, adrenaline, and whatnot but still, chaining is a touch more tedious.

And you can't really argue with the fact that when, say, I am in a group, fighting in a mission, I can drop one enemy after another and boy does it make me feel good. The warrior can darned well go in first to take the agro, sure... but that's what teamwork is all about. I don't like the idea of all-purpose professions that can do anything, (Not that the warrior is one... Contrary to popular belief) teamwork is a big issue in GW.

SotiCoto · Apr 24, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Anyone who claims Assassins don't do well in PvE clearly doesn't play with heroes / henchies enough.

Let me make an important point here: An assassin's strength lies in spiking... killing things quickly. It becomes a lot easier when the entire party is backing you up against the same enemy. DEFINITELY helps if you're using Assassin's Promise... and aside from being able to put Bleeding and Deep Wound on the foe (in my case Jagged Strike and Impale respectively)... the foe is constantly burning because dear Sousuke (bless his cotton socks) has dumped a Greater Conflagration down and started spamming Mark of Rodgort.... and the whole while Zhed is using Searing Flames on... yes... the same foe... and only the minions are keeping the other foes busy.

No battle ever goes slowly for me.... ever.
Either my party of flaming dewm assists me in wiping out the enemies in record speed.... or we have taken on enemies too tough for us and get wiped ourselves (much less often).

...

..... Ok.
I lied.

[wiki]Mungri Magicbox[/wiki] can never be brought down quickly... even when I follow the standardised tactic of wailing on the other Gardener first.
As for [wiki]Coventina the Matron[/wiki]... No comment.

Silk Weaver · Apr 24, 2007, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

I'm sorry, that means that being, say, a mesmer is as easy as being a warrior.

No, what we're saying is more that a mesmer is easier than being a warrior. R U BLOODLIGHT?

The above is not my personal opinion, I'm quite with the mesmer/ranger crowd, but the importance of a good warrior is such a large factor... then again, it's expected for the whole team to be good, no? Generalising a bit: Warrior (Offense, callers, spikes), mesmer (AEGIS GO DOWN KK?), and splits (die solo to NPCs, just try, see who kicks you first) tend to show the skill of a player most obviously. Then again, this is my own opinion. Obviously the skill of each player becomes apparant after a while, but a warrior > sin in that respect. Sin = Proper Tactical Choices, Warriors = Proper Tactical Choices + Utility + Calling + More Emphasis on Positioning + Constant,ie not once per 20 seocnd pressure/spikes.

Quote:

it's difficult to look for good skills that will fit with what you generally do

Aside from spiking, what else can a sin do? Obviously, you can decide to put horns in instead of blades, and other stuff, but in the end it's the same thing, isn't it? Aren't we discussing about personal skill here? Not Build Wars?

Note: I don't mind Moebius + DB, but whatever.

Quote:

I can drop one enemy after another

Sorry, an ele can drop two, three, four, five, a warrior can do what a sin can, at twice the speed or more, and then the trapper can own face. Let's just compare it to an SF team.

Quote:

teamwork is a big issue in GW

Sins do not promote teamwork as much as warriors, mesmers, and pretty much every other class.

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Anyone who claims Assassins don't do well in PvE clearly doesn't play with heroes / henchies enough.

Are you sure? Please back up this statement. Afaik I was henchwaying THK as well last night in hard mode. Then it got boring. Let's not compare "LOLO I HAVE X AMOUNT OF FAME/EXP/GLADPOINTS", and back it up with evidence.

Quote:

An assassin's strength lies in spiking... killing things quickly.

It's okay, we know what "spiking" means, but thanks for the effort, professor.

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It becomes a lot easier when the entire party is backing you up against the same enemy.

As opposed to harder? Also-- let's attack the same target while they are under mark of protection or healing hands!

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silly scenario

And what exactly does the sin here do anything that another player cannot?

Quote:

No battle ever goes slowly for me.... ever.

"... or this will be the shortest offensive in history"

or whatever it was.

I I I Inferno I I I · Apr 24, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Im just so god damn pissed off about this...

I cant be bothered quoting 20 ppl about riposite warriors 1vs1 a sin = pwnage so im just going to tell you this:

[skill]Expose Defenses[/skill] + [skill]Horns of the Ox[/skill]+[skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] = dead riposite warrior.

read expose defences carefully, it shuts down riposites for 10 seconds avg (for me) and horns of the ox kills the tank and by the time expose runs out you can finish him off with TF xD

LightningHell · Apr 24, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by I I I Inferno I I I

Im just so god damn pissed off about this...

I cant be bothered quoting 20 ppl about riposite warriors 1vs1 a sin = pwnage so im just going to tell you this:

[skill]Expose Defenses[/skill] + [skill]Horns of the Ox[/skill]+[skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] = dead riposite warrior.

read expose defences carefully, it shuts down riposites for 10 seconds avg (for me) and horns of the ox kills the tank and by the time expose runs out you can finish him off with TF xD

I'm pretty sure nobody here's talking about ripostes.

I I I Inferno I I I · Apr 24, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Sin = Proper Tactical Choices, Warriors = Proper Tactical Choices + Utility + Calling + More Emphasis on Positioning + Constant,ie not once per 20 seocnd pressure/spikes.

Aside from spiking, what else can a sin do? Obviously, you can decide to put horns in instead of blades, and other stuff, but in the end it's the same thing, isn't it? Aren't we discussing about personal skill here? Not Build Wars?

Sorry, an ele can drop two, three, four, five, a warrior can do what a sin can, at twice the speed or more, and then the trapper can own face.

And what exactly does the sin here do anything that another player cannot?

ahh here we go again........

dude ur still living back in 2006. 20 seconds? Where did you get that from???
ohhh, thats right! Sp/BoA! how many ppl do you think use Sp today? -_-

What do you mean personal skill? Time yourself on when to attack!? Well duuh! If this wouldn't be Build Wars then we wouldn't have the skill bar! This would baisically turn into WoW with 9999999999kazillion skills that cover 9/10 of your screen, or one of those crappy star wars games! And that what makes GW special :P

And about the speed... I think you mixed it up

, its the other way around.

Sin is 2 times harder 2 times funner and if you are a veteran sin its 4 times easyer in pvp and pve because you know what you're doing unlike some warriors that I have met who go from offhand attack to Lead then to Dual in no particular order, and thats why you hate sins so much! Because you didnt figure out how to play the sin properly from day1!

I I I Inferno I I I · Apr 24, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I'm pretty sure nobody here's talking about ripostes.

ye i know ive just read from pj13 because i was moving house so i was away and im "rebutting" some ppl.

SotiCoto · Apr 24, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

So Silk Weaver has major aggression issues. I don't really feel like responding to any of his tirade of abuse...

I did notice this though:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Also, how do you trigger Mantis Touch... Dancing Daggers (lead) -> Entangling Asp (Needs lead) -/-> Mantis Touch?

Quite simply... Entangling Asp might need a lead but doesn't count as an Off-Hand... thus even after using it the Lead Attack icon still remains on the target, and any Off-Hand can follow it.
The same goes with Blinding Powder, which follows an Off-Hand but isn't technically a Dual-Attack.... allowing you to go Off-Hand => Blinding Powder => Dual Attack.

Quote:

Aside from Deadly Arts Assassins being woefully second-rate, the other reason is because melee sins make more use from shadow steps. You can shadow step in from full range into melee; that a particular skill has 1/2 range or melee range has no difference. Besides, having 1 skill needing melee range basically means you need melee range, which means in turn you're not much safer than the dagger sin, if any.

Deadly Paradox...
... And immunity to anti-melee skills.

Just thought I'd point those out. ^_^