Curse

ghostkai · Apr 07, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

edited, removed combo.... i'm selfish, hope you saw it Mokone

Samurai-JM · Apr 07, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

ok..one question tho, where is the dazed coming from? lol, i got no idea seeing how theres only (I THINK?!) 3 daze ELITES for a sin and no normal ones as far as i know..

oh and guess ill have to make a healing hands purge conditions wammo against you than har har har....lol

but still, i dont recall any 4 dagger combo killing a warrior -- im not sure about a 5 one, MAYBE black spider/ox/lotus/blades/impale which ive never tested, but dunno really.

impale isn't a dagger attack, but 4 hit combos can easily kill tanks. Shadowy Burden for example, completely removes the warriors +20 physical armor!

moko · Apr 07, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

impale isn't a dagger attack, but 4 hit combos can easily kill tanks. Shadowy Burden for example, completely removes the warriors +20 physical armor!

i know impale isnt a dagger attack -- it just fits into one nicely as a finish off with DW instead of the normal twisting fangs for overall more damage.

shadowy burden is nice, but as far as i see everyone prefers dark prison still.

Quote:

edited, removed combo.... i'm selfish, hope you saw it Mokone

nah i didnt, but its no problem.

i wouldnt really share builds either that work that nicely..but im gonna give myself a challenge and figure out how your dazing now. =p

and please dont call warriors tanks. ._. its the same gimmick with calling sins SPBoA sins.

Bloodied Blade · Apr 07, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Post Deleted

ghostkai · Apr 07, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

shadowy burden to remove the +20? seems a tad wasteful considering u cud just change dagger mods instead

and yes i agree with never stereotyping classes like Mokone

warriors aren't always tanks, sins aren't 1 trick ponies, necros aren't always MM's, ritualists aren't just spirit spammers, monks aren't always healers, mesmers aren't always shutdown, eles don't always "nuke", rangers aren't just barrage RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs or trappers, dervs aren't always enchant spamming balthazar wannabe asses, paragons don't always have to be motivation shouters....

variation is awesome

The Ernada · Apr 08, 2007, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Wow. Seems like the standard response of any critique in here is to flame someone with "u didnt play ur sin good u noob1!!" or "u probbly mad becuz u got owned by a sin lolz!"

My critique wasnt on the effectiveness of the assassin or because of some "bad experience" The whole concept of the assassin is just poor. Especially SP assassins. It takes the skill of positioning out of the game and instaganks are bad for the game because it then becomes a matter of who can gank who first by mashing 1,2,3. Similar to spiking but it doesnt even need the team coordination.

And it allows teams to build very very defensively. In normal builds these builds wouldnt be able to kill much but with the highly compressed damage of an assassin it makes it possible to one man spike.

Samurai-JM · Apr 08, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

That just adds versatility though. You cant have every single character able to do the exact same thing, they all needs strengths and weaknesses. Assassins sacrificed much of the defensive capabilities of other professions in return for dealing mass amounts of damage. Just as warriors have lower offensive capabilities(usually) they have more defense than any other profession. Thats the way the games made, and it works out for the best IMO.

Bloodied Blade · Apr 08, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Well...a few things.

Samurai, you can't claim that assassins are sacrificing defense when you're almost boasting that they barely lose 10 armor, and when other posters clearly show that they can build defensively...also, maybe not *every* character can do everything, but elementalists can certainly tank & do great damage, along with most other classes. I understand what you're getting at though.

Ernada, in my experience, the insta-gank hasn't been a problem. Then again, I play a ranger and I'm very handy with planting my interrupts into dual attacks (ala Twisting Fangs). After that it's a simple task to degen/pressure them out. The assassin really is rather gimped if you know how to stop a combo... the problem being that most people either don't build to do so, or simply can't.

EDIT: To those wondering, I do have experience with the assassin. It was my main for several months and I've played them avidly in pvp. I've played BoA, AoD, AP, Shock, and several builds of my own design, all with varying success. Please don't attempt the "bad experience" card here, it doesn't apply.

2nd Edit: As for the assassin hate in PvE, many remember the hordes of noobs that caused wipes...and some of the new people are doing the same thing with them still. For PvP, it's because if how one-dimensional their roles are and because of how easily-countered they are...don't ask for examples, you should be more than aware of your weaknesses.

I I I Inferno I I I · Apr 09, 2007, 06:47 AM // 06:47

This reminds me of Usa and Russia in the 70's....

Face it: Sins do way more dmg thn an avg tank in pve or pvp, but tank has way more defence then a sin ever will.

Its an endless competition between 2 melee classes and everyone will always argue about it.

My whole guild split up because of it

and im getting sick and tired of Warriors competing with sins.

moko · Apr 09, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by I I I Inferno I I I

This reminds me of Usa and Russia in the 70's....

Face it: Sins do way more dmg thn an avg tank in pve or pvp, but tank has way more defence then a sin ever will.

Its an endless competition between 2 melee classes and everyone will always argue about it.

My whole guild split up because of it

and im getting sick and tired of Warriors competing with sins.

2 MELEE CLASSES?

oh by the way, warriors =! tanks. tanks = bad warriors. good warriors = damage.

its the same with; suicide sins = bad players, no damage; good sins = damage

calling warriors tanks already shows that you have no idea about the class, especially that you called them tanks in PVP TOO!

Samurai-JM · Apr 09, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

I have nothin against warriors, I just made one the other week and hes nearly done with tyria and halfway through cantha. I love the triple axe build or a simple sever/gash/final build, and I've tried all sorts of elites on him and they are all fun. Im not trying to say anything is better than anything here, I just want to clear up the issues surounding the hatred around assassins.

Joey the Sin · Apr 09, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

I never knew there was hatred around Assassins. And If there is I really dont care because it's a profession I really enjoy playing. And I also have nothing against warriors

Bloodied Blade · Apr 09, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by I I I Inferno I I I

This reminds me of Usa and Russia in the 70's....

Face it: Sins do way more dmg thn an avg tank in pve or pvp, but tank has way more defence then a sin ever will.

Its an endless competition between 2 melee classes and everyone will always argue about it.

My whole guild split up because of it

and im getting sick and tired of Warriors competing with sins.

A few things: A warrior 'tanks' in PvE because there aren't many other suitable classes that are remotely as versatile, and because the other classes are better suited to other roles. A PvE tank =/= damage, comparing the two and saying that a dps character does more damage doesn't say anything than what the actual game is designed to do *in PvE* and calling a warrior in PvP a 'tank' suggests that you actually don't PvP at all.

The 'competition' for who is dominant over damage/tanking is rather nonexistent in my experience. Warriors hit very hard, warriors can get very hard and stay standing; Assassins hit somewhat harder, Assassins die if they're hit very hard...that's only for PvE, I don't even touch the Assassin in PvP because of how difficult it is to find a role for one.

Warriors do not compete with Assassins in PvE, the Assassin kills monks and the Warrior keeps heavy-hitters from killing the team's backline.

In PvP the Warrior can put out an absolutely inordinant amount of pressure and *maintain* it. The Assassin goes from no pressure to a lot of pressure very quickly, provided that any number of the game's anti-melee/anti-spell/anti-chaining skills doesn't stop them...which is every skill that interrupts a skill, blinds, interrupts a melee attack, slows attack speed, applies weakness, shuts down a skillbar, cripples a target, slows a target's movement speed, causes a 'miss' on the next attack, or allows a defender to 'block'.

The Assassin can be disabled with the use of one, maybe two at most, of the above effects.

The Warrior is vulnerable to most of the same, barring the interrupts, and is far more capable when it comes to having another chance at getting around the shutdown (generic term, not to be confused with skillbar shutdown).

Yes, there are ways around the shutdown, but the Warrior just has a far easier time of things whereas the Assassin is fraught with problems that make it a highly undesireable class to bring into any environment where any of the above-mentioned forms of shutdown are prevalent.

EDIT: There are 3 melee classes, a few more if you squint.

Symbol · Apr 09, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Yes, there are ways around the shutdown, but the Warrior just has a far easier time of things whereas the Assassin is fraught with problems that make it a highly undesireable class to bring into any environment where any of the above-mentioned forms of shutdown are prevalent.

Warriors build adrenaline much slower in environments with heavy melee hate. Assassins with quickly recharging combo chains are if, anything, more resilient to shutdown because their skills recharge while they wait for a removal. The one exception are skills disables like distracting shot or diversion which totally take them out of play for 20-60 seconds.

IMO the main obstacle to playing assassins as pressure is fragility.

Samurai-JM · Apr 09, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Fragility? Do you mean using as an assassin, or against an assassin... Either way I've never seen much use/harm come from that skill except in some team spikes. But the point about warriors adrenaline and assassins recharges is good. Assassins also have my new favorite skill, Assassin's Promise, which recharges ALL of your skills when your target dies(in a certain time). The time period is normally easy to overcome as the assassin spikes can easily take out targets. Warriors have IAS to bring their adrenaline up, but it takes a much longer time for them to pull off actual attack skills.

Symbol · Apr 09, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Not the skill. Assassins are softer targets than warriors. This means that they can't overextend as safely, or as often, which is very important.

Bowstring Badass · Apr 09, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by I I I Inferno I I I

This reminds me of Usa and Russia in the 70's....

Face it: Sins do way more dmg thn an avg tank in pve or pvp, but tank has way more defence then a sin ever will.

Its an endless competition between 2 melee classes and everyone will always argue about it.

My whole guild split up because of it

and im getting sick and tired of Warriors competing with sins.

As am I. I just want to kill the wamo noob who says a sin wont kill me and I do.

Master Dude Guy · Apr 09, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

I like the Assassin. Unfortunately, most people don't. And I can see why.
While most people just hate Assassin because their friends do, there's actually a reason why the hate started. I don't know why it started, because I got Factions 1 month and 1/2 after it came out.

I think it's because they're not consistent. Sure, they can deal lots of damage, but after doing so, it's hard to keep the chain of attacks going. Most chain attack skills have different cooldown times, and often the lead attack cools first. Then, the secondary doesn't cool for about a good 5 seconds after, leaving a gap between the time the two chains can be connected, which in PvP and even in PvE, is a large enough window to be killed in.

Ok, maybe they can kill 1 person in record time. But, what if you're in a mob? What if you have a lot of damage taken and a few conditions? What then? What happens is the same thing that happens above, the uneven cooldown, the conditions take a toll on you, and another person/thing in the mob gets you. BAM! You're dead.

Now, Sins do have a lot of high points. My favorite skill is [skill=text]Aura of Displacement[/skill].
I go in, do my chain, kill a person, get out. That's one of the best Sin skills to date
So, I think it's inconsistency that killed the Sin. That and people just jump on the "I hate Sins" bandwagon for no reason.

The only class hated more than Sins are Paragons...and they REALLY suck.

Francis Demeules · Apr 10, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Dude Guy

The only class hated more than Sins are Paragons...and they REALLY suck.

Just because they shout to people and we can't remove it when applied.
Anyway, that was a side line and I dont want to turn the concersation.

Still greatly hate among players? I dont think so. I talked with my friends in my college about the sins, some says they suck because of the low armor and they're weak ninja style. Knowing they are not experienced with that profession and I think this is where the hate started: the first look with the first experience.

Everyone has a "filter" which its called the "First look" (a little psycho study of my own) and maybe this is where a player gets the hate of it. They stop there, the first look is the final decision for them. The problem is psychologic, not the profession itself.

As melee, if I compare the 3 melee, Sins deal great damage in few seconds. I you think Dervishes do better, they need multiple targets. Against one target, they lose benefit and potential. For Warriors, they takes time to build adrenaline. Even that, Rage of Ntouka can completly recharge and keep your adrenaline up before combat, dealing like a Sin but still low energy regeneration.

PvE: Attacking in any side is suicide for a Sin. Yes they have some defensive skills to block (I wish they re-put evade

) but I prefer to let the warriors going first, a sin head first for me is a dead sin. You can put many conditions to gain advantage in the battle: Blind a group with blinding power, remove an enchanment, cripple a melee foe to save your partner like monks, finishing a key foe in the team before he does anything (Disable in many case). I can even say reducing the damage from a foe because I play a Deadly Sin and I really need my Siphon Strength [E]. A versatile Lyssa profession and still have some trouble in groups.

PvP: I can't tell much about but every Sin I encounter they're played Shadow Prison/Conditions build since Nightfall. I can't really tell on that.

If players are not happy with the professions, let them blame themself. Its their own problems. Its been awhile I have not heard about sins/paragons hate in GW. Only those I see they hate is because they're not really experienced or they have not seen their true potential with their skills. In conclusion, I wish not to encounter someone like that because I have no more intention to argue which profession sucks because its really pointless.

-Francis Demeules-

Bloodied Blade · Apr 10, 2007, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Warriors build adrenaline much slower in environments with heavy melee hate. Assassins with quickly recharging combo chains are if, anything, more resilient to shutdown because their skills recharge while they wait for a removal. The one exception are skills disables like distracting shot or diversion which totally take them out of play for 20-60 seconds.

IMO the main obstacle to playing assassins as pressure is fragility.

The warrior builds adrenaline slower only in environments where the actual movement or attack speed is affected. In the same environment, the efficiency of the assassin combo is completely destroyed because a 2-3 second combo becomes a 4-6 second combo (easily interrupted, blocked, healed through, etc).

Really though, the most effective assassin combos do *not* recharge quickly, that's the problem. The AoD builds, SP, anything dependent on positioning (and if you don't have a form of positioning, why are you even there?) all have very slow recharging combos (in the area of 20s to be completely prepared again).