Curse

pve-er · Apr 02, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

after reading 5 pages of crap, what I see here is:
1 Mokone thinks Assassin is 100% useless
2 Assassin sucks on the wrong hand
3 Assassin isn't essencially needed any place in GW
4 Assassin is hard

so Assassins are hated
Don't flame me, my primary class is assassin

in fact, any discussion is meaningless,
1. Assassin won't shake off the bad name and people will hate it as long as GW still have assassin.
2. People love to hate because that make them feel good of themself (love is illusion, hate is reality)
3. there isn't much that ANet can and will do to make difference (why will they care when Sin is just minority? if you don't like it, don't play it)

please end this thread and never come out a thread about "Sin hate" anymore.
Things won't change simply because people won't change, physic teach us thing only get worse

Samurai-JM · Apr 02, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

not sure what you mean, you primary class is assassin, you say assassins suck, and dont flame you. I havent been flaming anyone with this thread, I just want to find out why people hate assassins in so many areas, and I keep gettng no answers.

and what do you mean they arent needed? no class is really needed, but any class can fit into the game and work well. IMO assassins work very well in all areas, just as any profession can.

It is true that assassins can be tough to play and are probably not the best choice for a first time player though, that is why I think they got the bad rep in the first place: players that couldnt play them.

Am I A Good Sin · Apr 02, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Hey what's up pplz. Samurai instead of unsuspecting and wild which r great dmg dealing skills I'd say to switch out 3 skills in that build. Take out unsuspecting and wild strike for golden phoenix strike ( since critical defences is an enchant ) and critical eye. Then shadow refuge for way of perfection. This ofers a better healing potential. Also use enchant 20% longer daggers and u may possibly be a nice semi-tank. The golden phoenix strike while not as much dmg is 5 energy less for a similar effect of getting to moebious and death blossom quicker. With in theory around the same killing potential and better survivability.
@mokone. U r entitled to ur own opinion but remember that a dervish has its own faults to as does a warrior. A warrior normally kills WITH an ally or slowly alone ( cept for occasional and rare really good warriors ). A dervish while very good for dealing damage to mobs can easily be shut down by a sin. Also later in NF and kurzick factions area there is a bit of enchant removal which is a fault exploited by necros in PvP. A sin in factions is usually done for if u used the moebious strike and Death blossom since u have about 4 explosions at once. So yes I agree that I would take a dervish or warrior over a sin ( although I am 1 ) in factions when fighting the afflicted. Later while in kurz or luxon territory a sin is a very good asset to a team.
@shuuda u do make some good arguements but he counters everything u say and u return with a slightly different approach each time. Either way u r comparing sin killing a monk in 1 v 1. GW as Shuuda said ( which I applaud this here ) is a team game. Sure a monk can keep himself alive but what about when his allies r dieing and he is being atked? That's the difference between a good monk and a bad monk. ( I play monk as well as warrior ranger paragon dervish sin elementalist ... Never got the hang of mesmer or necro ) well I'm done since I'm using my phone to type ( apologies for errors ).

Samurai-JM · Apr 02, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Am I A Good Sin

Hey what's up pplz. Samurai instead of unsuspecting and wild which r great dmg dealing skills I'd say to switch out 3 skills in that build. Take out unsuspecting and wild strike for golden phoenix strike ( since critical defences is an enchant ) and critical eye. Then shadow refuge for way of perfection. This ofers a better healing potential. Also use enchant 20% longer daggers and u may possibly be a nice semi-tank. The golden phoenix strike while not as much dmg is 5 energy less for a similar effect of getting to moebious and death blossom quicker. With in theory around the same killing potential and better survivability.
@mokone. U r entitled to ur own opinion but remember that a dervish has its own faults to as does a warrior. A warrior normally kills WITH an ally or slowly alone ( cept for occasional and rare really good warriors ). A dervish while very good for dealing damage to mobs can easily be shut down by a sin. Also later in NF and kurzick factions area there is a bit of enchant removal which is a fault exploited by necros in PvP. A sin in factions is usually done for if u used the moebious strike and Death blossom since u have about 4 explosions at once. So yes I agree that I would take a dervish or warrior over a sin ( although I am 1 ) in factions when fighting the afflicted. Later while in kurz or luxon territory a sin is a very good asset to a team.
@shuuda u do make some good arguements but he counters everything u say and u return with a slightly different approach each time. Either way u r comparing sin killing a monk in 1 v 1. GW as Shuuda said ( which I applaud this here ) is a team game. Sure a monk can keep himself alive but what about when his allies r dieing and he is being atked? That's the difference between a good monk and a bad monk. ( I play monk as well as warrior ranger paragon dervish sin elementalist ... Never got the hang of mesmer or necro ) well I'm done since I'm using my phone to type ( apologies for errors ).

I usually do all of those depending on area, like I said that particular build is very versatile. I just like shadow refuge because I tend to stay in battles and its a perfect in battle heal. also to deal with any e-removal(or even multiple explosions caused by death blossom to afflicted) I just use the AP spiker. No enchants, only 1 enemy at a time, kills them fast then moves on. And in my particular build, Monks never live unless they have massive amounts of health/enchants already on them, or have another monk next to them. But yes, in comparing most of these people havent taken teams into account at all. The best part of an assassin is its ability to go in, pick someone off, and move to the next in the confusion of battle without ever being seen. With huge spikes on top of the teams damage, an assassin is an invaluable part of any team.

suiraCLAW · Apr 02, 2007, 06:56 AM // 06:56

@mokone,

What I sayed was: Assassins are used in balanced build AND they are used in hexbuilds AND they are used in melee pressure builds...

@Shuuda,

Looks like everyone agrees then.

Shuuda · Apr 02, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Actually, if you think about it, it is possible for an assassin to beat a monk in a 1 Vs 1, it's all a matter of the skills you bring, sure the monk could take pre viel and hex breaker to stop a hex based chain like shadow prison and expose defences, but the assassin could easily take a muti knock down build, that would screw the monk up, on the over hand, the monk could go Mo/W and beat my build with Balanced stance. Saying that Monk always beat assassins in 1 vs 1 is like say a mesmer will always shut down a monk, but what if thatmesmer is using anti melee.

And one other thing, Mokone earlier said that scorpion wire sucks, I must disagree (Ok in high end PvP, it's not that great) But in Low end it's a fun skill to use, since 1/2 of people won't even know what it does. I used it at FA as Luxon, good for stopping Kurzick amber runners(I used the combo of Falling spider - Ox - Moebius - Twisting)

Destinyy · Apr 02, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Very fun thread to read... thank you to all who have posted...

Mokone and Shuuda have actually both lost this battle... It's just been "well, i will add this skill to counter that skill" then the other says, "well then, i will add this skill to counter that" hehehehehehe When you make builds to counter another build 1v1 NOONE will win...

I been playing alot of AB lately cos I want my 15K Kurzick for my assa. The other day I cam accross an interesting monk and went after him and to my HORROR I unleashed a whole combo (Siphon speed - Spider - Twist - Lotus - Repeat - B of Steel) and the dude still had FULL HP... I was quiet shocked and I'm sure he was quiet chuffed with himself... So what did I do? Instead of trying again and being deadset on killing him, I hit TAB and found an ele and went off to kill him...

Lata on (bout 2 or 3 mins lata) about 5 of us Kurzicks ganged up on him and killed him, then took the monk shrine he was protecting...

I see another interesting arguement here about assa's in the front line; They not meant to be there until the end of a battle. I usually run up to the front line slightly behind the warriors and dervs and when in range I AOD to the backline and target the monks, eles and necros. Once they dead, I cancel AOD and go help the warriors with the front line. I have 560HP on my missioning assa all the time, I can take 3 afflicted explosions no problem. When I cancel AOD the monks are normally more than happy to oblige me with healing breeze or the likes...

Basically, EVERYTHING has a counter... e.g. something that temporarily annoys me in AB is SS necros. I said temp because if I get SS on me I simply cancel AOD and run around till it's finished, normally that necro will have changed his focus from me to someone else and by the time I come back to him he has no more SS to use. Guess where he ends up? :P

On a side note, I went after a R/A the other day and was shocked when I ended up dead before i got him to 50% HP, bloody DB/Mob Strike nailed me...lol

bungusmaximus · Apr 02, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

whats left? RA? AB? so im wondering, in what kind of PVP do you own badly with your assassin? your guild doesnt seem to be high ranked, so i guess you must be a gimmick hero or an RA farmer?

AB is actually a fine place to have fun with a sin, especially since some teams don't stay together. Theres plenty of lonely players to pick from and you have all the room in the world. Most AB teams don't bring monks either, so if you have a team with 2 sins, a monk and another toon you're going to have a field day.

moko · Apr 02, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

@mokone,

What I sayed was: Assassins are used in balanced build AND they are used in hexbuilds AND they are used in melee pressure builds...

i got it when i re-read your reply after you posted again. :P

Quote:

after reading 5 pages of crap, what I see here is:
1 Mokone thinks Assassin is 100% useless

obviously didnt read careful enough. ^_^ i dont think assassins are 100% useless, i just completely dislike them. =)

Quote:

Actually, if you think about it, it is possible for an assassin to beat a monk in a 1 Vs 1, it's all a matter of the skills you bring, sure the monk could take pre viel and hex breaker to stop a hex based chain like shadow prison and expose defences, but the assassin could easily take a muti knock down build, that would screw the monk up, on the over hand, the monk could go Mo/W and beat my build with Balanced stance. Saying that Monk always beat assassins in 1 vs 1 is like say a mesmer will always shut down a monk, but what if thatmesmer is using anti melee.

alright, lets see. i usually have my 2 fav bars i use nearly everyone if i can

its either;

1) /Me; Zb - Rof - Mending Touch - Hexbreaker - Veil - optional spots
2) /W; Divert Hexes - Rof - Mending Touch - Tactics Stance

Quote:

Mokone and Shuuda have actually both lost this battle... It's just been "well, i will add this skill to counter that skill" then the other says, "well then, i will add this skill to counter that" hehehehehehe When you make builds to counter another build 1v1 NOONE will win...

to answer this as well; my bars are used everywhere, to counter everything. i didnt actually make them for assassins, but they just turned out to make them utterly useless as well.

its not a buildwars, its just assassins against my normal builds i always run. i wouldnt ever change it to "beat" an assassin, i just know they are capable of doing so.

to the builds; most assassin builds rely on twisting fangs - mending touch pwns it badly in both cases.
most assassin builds have hexes - either pwned by dual hex removal or divert hexes
if theres a special case of the assassin managing to unload his combo, ill just a single rof and my stance and its gg. :S

Quote:

AB is actually a fine place to have fun with a sin, especially since some teams don't stay together. Theres plenty of lonely players to pick from and you have all the room in the world. Most AB teams don't bring monks either, so if you have a team with 2 sins, a monk and another toon you're going to have a field day.

i ran this build before in AB, it was a week ago or so

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

My Assassin's Promise spiker for PvE:
[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]Dark Prison[/skill][skill]Burst of Aggression[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill][skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill]
Personally my favorite PvE build out of any assassin build, able to cut through mobs like a knife through butter. However it isn't very easy to use as you really need to choose targets wisely so you can ensure the kill to trigger AP. Not great in the hands of an amateur.

it worked great, i got my kills, i also had my kill failures, but it was still just very boring. thats probably connected due to the fact that kurzicks always seem to mob so you cant really spike that many loners - when i played assassin back as kurzick i actually had a BIT of fun because luxons didnt ALWAYS mob, but as it seems, npc killing isnt that fun.

and about scorpion wire..i dont see the point of it. first, it has half the normal range, then a rather crap recharge..the thing i miss about it is the lack of snare it has, sure its got a teleport, but after you did your failing the target has an easy time running off if they are lucky. suppose siphon is superior in any moment to it (maybe combined with iron palm if you wanna use the energy - afterall you said assassins had an awesome energy management, so put it to good use =P)

im out of this thread now anyways, i guess ive explained well enough why i hate this class. <3

Shuuda · Apr 02, 2007, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

to the builds; most assassin builds rely on twisting fangs - mending touch pwns it badly in both cases.
most assassin builds have hexes - either pwned by dual hex removal or divert hexes
if theres a special case of the assassin managing to unload his combo, ill just a single rof and my stance and its gg. :S

1: I've played many builds that don't use twisting fang, they landed kills just fine.
2: Ok, in the current Meta-game, assassins do rely on hexes, but it doesn't take 1000IQ to find a build that can function with out. As far I care, the Meta sucks, it's just cold calculating builds used to farm points in PvP. It's not "special" that an assassin can hit the combo dispite a crumy Viel and hex breaker, just a bit of brain power. And you can't have hex breaker and warrior stances at once.

@Destinyy: Both me an Mokone being wrong is victory enough for me.

bungusmaximus · Apr 02, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

i ran this build before in AB, it was a week ago or so
it worked great, i got my kills, i also had my kill failures, but it was still just very boring. thats probably connected due to the fact that kurzicks always seem to mob so you cant really spike that many loners - when i played assassin back as kurzick i actually had a BIT of fun because luxons didnt ALWAYS mob, but as it seems, npc killing isnt that fun.

LOL if Kurzicks mob that means you already won, that's because theyre idiots. AB-ing against idiots is indeed quite dull because yo can win in your sleep avoiding mobs and killing NPC's as you stated

And yeah, playing sin is indeed soo boring IMO, just fire off combos and press I WIN in most cases. EVERY sin that i teamed up with ran SP/BOA and even then some cocky noron had the audacity to kick me out of the team because 'my build sucks' (One, it doesnt suck, Two, I actually made it up myself). Bah give me a good warrior over ANY sin please.

Shuuda · Apr 02, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

There are more builds than SP/BoA, which are better, and funner. That is the reason I stay out of High end PvP, it's ether "Run what we tell ya or get lost noob", you cannot judge a proffession on one single meta build. But if find all assassin builds to be boring fair enough, I find Monks boring because I can never see the fun in just standing there and healing, feels so unrewarding to me.

bungusmaximus · Apr 02, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

There are more builds than SP/BoA, which are better, and funner. That is the reason I stay out of High end PvP, it's ether "Run what we tell ya or get lost noob", you cannot judge a proffession on one single meta build. But if find all assassin builds to be boring fair enough, I find Monks boring because I can never see the fun in just standing there and healing, feels so unrewarding to me.

Very true, I always respect original players, but composing a team and seeing A/W all over the place kinda makes me wonder how creative most players really are.

Samurai-JM · Apr 02, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

A/W is just great because they have the most IAS stances possible for a secondary. It is very overused though x_x I like to use original builds most of the time.

And to mokone, I STILL don't see how you can be bored. Its so much fun!!!11one

and to bungus, you had a bad experience with a sin, so sorry for that. I also hate arrogant players of ANY profession, and not just sins.

Assassin teams can also be very diverse, the ultimate spike could be one SPBoA, one BHBoA, one SoS, one Signet Spiker, maybe even a Moebius/DB! In many spike formations, there is little a person can do against assassins.

Still dont see how you think standing there with a warrior pressin 1.. 2.. 3... 4 whenever adrenaline comes up is more fun than teleporting and slashing people to death 10x faster than anything else... A good assassin mixes up combos as well, doesn't always have to be 12345, could be 14235 or something. Anyway, opinions are opinions, I just wish more people could learn play the class better and be more creative...

One more note about mokones last post: scorpian wire usually does suck, but it can be fun to use as a "surprise snare". And I STILL cant see how your bored, but thats just you I guess.

Quozz · Apr 02, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

My take on the assassin hate depends on whether your talking PVE or PVP.

In PVE, they have little bang for the buck so to speak. This is probably due more to how powerful some of the skills and builds have become. For example in a party with a MM and either a fire or earth nuker, most things will be dead before a sin ever has a chance to unload his combo. Not saying they are bad just not as efficient. There is also the survivability issue. In PVE my strength warrior is all about inflicting damage while my tactics warrior might also have a shout like watch yourself. No self heals needed. Your monk should have no problem keeping you up if he is any good. Assassins can't do that. They need more dedicated skill slots for defense and healing thus reducing their damage output. Every second spent shadow stepping out of combat and waiting for skills to recharge is another wasted offensive opportunity.

Now for PVP I have to actually thank assassins for helping me to improve my builds. I remember being in FA just after the buffs came out and getting totally owned repeatedly by several assassins. Didn't take me long to figure out counters but even better I found that the counters resulted in better overall builds that work against almost anything. Assassins are severely gimped by their one dimensional nature. They gank. Thats it. As soon as I see one I know what your going to try and do regardless of your build. Any decent player knows that an assassins biggest weak point is hexes. Both their reliance on them and their inability to counter them. Hex breaker and veil are easy counters to an assassin's hexes while putting things like reckless haste, empathy, price of failure, and spirit shackles on an assassin leaves them shutdown. And thats just to name a few. The bad assassins will attack through these and die. The good ones will run away but thats almost as good since they are now rendered useless for a good chunk of time. The one bright spot for sins is the plethora of poor players they can victimize.

Hopefully Anet will do a major re-work of this profession for GW2. It has potential for being valuable and fun but in its current state its pretty sad.

Samurai-JM · Apr 02, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

*has great power and survivability in PvE*

I actually went through factions again on my sin, and I forgot all about the survivability, meaning it wasn't a problem at all. Even in mobs of afflicted two hero monks were enough to kill my entire party(including me) alive, and I was the only one in the frontlines!

In PvP however assassins have become easily counterable, and most monks carry anti hex spells to fully shutdown SPBoA sins, so I encourage people to find new builds that dont rely on the same strategy over and over...

And sins DONT JUST GANK :O I tank on my sin, people yell at me for it, but I do it anyway!

Honestly, I think sins need some newer attacks... the 4 hit hex combo is honestly getting overused juuuust a little in PvP...

Still, a well played assassin can dominate PvE, although most people don't believe it.

Shuuda · Apr 02, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I've said it many times, so listen up. Assassins don't rely on hexes, and saying that they are rubbish because they do is bull****, that's like saying Dervishes are bad because they offen rely on enchantments. Shadow prison was the 1st major meta assassin build that relied on a hex, before that we had:

AoD Shock sins, Which have seen used in PvP even after shadow prison.
Shove sins, ..... never tried it when it was popular but it does work.
Signet spiker, not ace, but it works.
The Moebius and DB pressure chain, popular in HA I believe.

The only skill that needs changing are the Golden skills, for example, add burning to golden phoenix (Which makes sense, since it's PHOENIX) and some of the deadly art skills, Buff scorpion wire, OR ELSE!*happy smile*

Samurai-JM · Apr 02, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

I NEVER use shock on an assassin, exhaustion with a max of ~35 energy ftl!
but I have used a nice AoD sin with a DPS kind of attack chain, quick to get in and out and still nice dmg/conditions.
Shove... works but I dont like it for some reason.
Signet Spiker is actually pretty good in RA, most dont know how to deal with it.
Moebius/DB is good anywhere really, because other than BoS, DB is the strongest spike an assassin can get.
And yea, golden phoenix needs a serious buff.

Shuuda · Apr 02, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Exhaustion was never an issue for me, and did deal out some good damage, I was also test some stuff at FA (Try to make a good build for Luxon side) Using Shock - Falling spider - Ox - Moebius - Twisting, really packed a punch. I was also thinking of using Expunge Enchantments with Shadow Shroud, in order to combat door bonders, add in Scopion wire or whatever against amber runners, and pack a common combo, just a quick idea.

The Signet spiker was awsome back when BS was only 5 energy, have not played it since the nerf, but I'm sure it wouls still work.

The only major thing about shove it the recharge and disabling of skills, but not a major issue for assassins.

Samurai-JM · Apr 02, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

great ideas using outdated skills, ill try some of them out too. The Sig Spiker that I use is more melee based now, with Black Spider, Blinding Powder, Twisting Fangs, and Impale, followed by the signets. It easily does about 600 damage, but it goes down fast with little defense.