Curse

Valeria · Apr 01, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Just encountered a assassin with about 220hp after his first 15%dp. Needless to say he died multiple times and loked likea 55hp monk who suffers burning bleeding and poison at once.

Too bad the healers even bothered rezzing him.

When taking Zenmai along she seems to be the enemys primary target very often and starts collecting dp very quickly as well. unlike warriors which are usually ignored by the enemys...

too many players teleport into battle and never return when recieving too much dmg.

I love playing assassin myself and death blossom really does an impressive amount of dmg

Samurai-JM · Apr 01, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

warriors are 6 feet wide and have 9 inch thick armor.

assassins are 1 foot wide and have half inch thick armor.

yes I exaggerated both. but still armor levels are as they should be. melee =/= super armor in every case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valeria

Just encountered a assassin with about 220hp after his first 15%dp. Needless to say he died multiple times and loked likea 55hp monk who suffers burning bleeding and poison at once.

Too bad the healers even bothered rezzing him.

When taking Zenmai along she seems to be the enemys primary target very often and starts collecting dp very quickly as well. unlike warriors which are usually ignored by the enemys...

too many players teleport into battle and never return when recieving too much dmg.

I love playing assassin myself and death blossom really does an impressive amount of dmg

that is the case of the "narutard". The assassin who cant play an assassin. Zenmai is just as you said usually, thats why I just take SF/MM heros xD

Mesmer in Need · Apr 01, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Well, whenever i play as my rit or monk, i usually cringe when i have a sin in my party, even more so when i get 2. after playing a war for a while, you kinda get belligerent of lesser armoured allies. warriors do have the best armour, with 80 base, and +20 vs melee, which is standard on all war armours, and thats what makes them the best at tanking. even with insignias, sins still lack the +20 vs phsical, and most of all a shield, and this makes this worse off for tanking, let alone being on the frontlines

. But sins make up for it in other ways. they do have skills that block, skills thaty keep them alive, and skills thaty can teleport them in and out of battle safely. ive never really played a sin, but ive seen them do damage, and they are good professions, but their niche is more in pvp where you have a better chance at getting a competent monk, and less focus fire on you. maybey now i might feel differently about sins.

Samurai-JM · Apr 01, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need

Well, whenever i play as my rit or monk, i usually cringe when i have a sin in my party, even more so when i get 2. after playing a war for a while, you kinda get belligerent of lesser armoured allies. warriors do have the best armour, with 80 base, and +20 vs melee, which is standard on all war armours, and thats what makes them the best at tanking. even with insignias, sins still lack the +20 vs phsical, and most of all a shield, and this makes this worse off for tanking, let alone being on the frontlines

. But sins make up for it in other ways. they do have skills that block, skills thaty keep them alive, and skills thaty can teleport them in and out of battle safely. ive never really played a sin, but ive seen them do damage, and they are good professions, but their niche is more in pvp where you have a better chance at getting a competent monk, and less focus fire on you. maybey now i might feel differently about sins.

I still manage to shine with my sins in PvE, and I can hold my own as well as any warrior... theres just too many people are deadset on countering them in PvP now. xD And I take that fact as a compliment

Darkpower Alchemist · Apr 01, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karomi Saoshi

Ok, couple things, Darkpower, any melee who attacks a riposte warrior is a complete idiot (no offense), and if you couldn't think of one assassin build to beat a riposte tank, have you ever heard of a deadly arts spiker. One in particular is the Blinding Surge deadly arts build on wiki. Its not hard to beat a riposte warrior with deadly arts, no attacking=no dmg, seeing how most of the dmg comes from the dual ripostes. (Btw, not slamming you

).

[skill=big]Blinding Surge[/skill]

As this part of the statement was refered to me,I will address it. This ele elite on a sin is a waste, for two reasons.

1) Why would a skilled sin need to rely on an ele elite? The fact is that blinding is the same no matter how you do it. It wouldn't stop a riposte warrior.

2)Mending Touch or Plague Touch makes the use of blinds of high energy consumption to be useless except by an ele primary.

Also, what choice does an assassin have but to attack with melee? Their energy managment is based on CS, which means they must physically attack,making them useless against a Riposte build. As for an ele using Deadly Arts, that makes for a different scenario, where the Ripostes are not usable, but the ele is still in trouble if the warrior can build adrenaline and use its normal attacks, where a sin would not have that same luck once the combo is disrupted. The ele would still be hard pressed to kill a warrior still, and none would be able to physically help him or face the bite of the Ripostes.

You are right that with No phys attacking, that the riposte build is definitely slowed and possible even unable to kill the opponent, but when it comes to a primary sin, they will have no choice but to run or die. It's not an idiot that attacks a riposte warrior, it is he who realizes he has no choice but to fight to look for an opening, or die by default.

Samurai-JM · Apr 01, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

[skill=big]Blinding Surge[/skill]

As this part of the statement was refered to me,I will address it. This ele elite on a sin is a waste, for two reasons.

1) Why would a skilled sin need to rely on an ele elite? The fact is that blinding is the same no matter how you do it. It wouldn't stop a riposte warrior.

2)Mending Touch or Plague Touch makes the use of blinds of high energy consumption to be useless except by an ele primary.

Also, what choice does an assassin have but to attack with melee? Their energy managment is based on CS, which means they must physically attack,making them useless against a Riposte build. As for an ele using Deadly Arts, that makes for a different scenario, where the Ripostes are not usable, but the ele is still in trouble if the warrior can build adrenaline and use its normal attacks, where a sin would not have that same luck once the combo is disrupted. The ele would still be hard pressed to kill a warrior still, and none would be able to physically help him or face the bite of the Ripostes.

You are right that with No phys attacking, that the riposte build is definitely slowed and possible even unable to kill the opponent, but when it comes to a primary sin, they will have no choice but to run or die. It's not an idiot that attacks a riposte warrior, it is he who realizes he has no choice but to fight to look for an opening, or die by default.

hes talking about the Signet Spiker, a build that doesn't use daggers, but instead spells and signets to deal over 400 armor ignoring damage. kills most enemies instantly and causes blind and poison, and in some variants deep wound.

EDIT: a riposte warrior would also have a bit of trouble getting adren up against 75% chance to block.

Darkpower Alchemist · Apr 01, 2007, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

hes talking about the Signet Spiker, a build that doesn't use daggers, but instead spells and signets to deal over 400 armor ignoring damage. kills most enemies instantly and causes blind and poison, and in some variants deep wound.

EDIT: a riposte warrior would also have a bit of trouble getting adren up against 75% chance to block.

Signet spiker? That would make the healing of a warrior to not be compromised due to it's -40 Armor of Healing sig. The mending touch would remove the conditions, or the plague touch(depending on the build). Also, 75% chance to block means no damage 3/4 of the time for a minor time period. The signet spiker may do armor ignoring damage, but if distracted/interupted the killing would still be avoidable. I see your point, but a signet spiker would still have to use some form of physical attacks to finish the job.

Solid points made, but the build in question is a gimmick build. No versatility at all, but definitely effective. So, you found a sin build that is capable of beating the riposte build,possibly,but will every sin use this build? Doubtful. The majority are Fallen spider/Horn Of the Ox happy soloists who die against the riposte and even the most cagey sin will find the riposte build to be a daunting task to surpass.

Nilator · Apr 01, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

I have to agree, assassin is the most misused profession.

Kaleban · Apr 01, 2007, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

I see your point, but a signet spiker would still have to use some form of physical attacks to finish the job.

No, it doesn't. Read the build on Guildwiki. Think before typing.

Quote:

Solid points made, but the build in question is a gimmick build. No versatility at all, but definitely effective. So, you found a sin build that is capable of beating the riposte build,possibly,but will every sin use this build? Doubtful. The majority are Fallen spider/Horn Of the Ox happy soloists who die against the riposte and even the most cagey sin will find the riposte build to be a daunting task to surpass.

And the Riposte build isn't a gimmicky build? No versatility at all, but effective in the right situation. I'd like to see your warrior Riposte Searing Flames...

Expose Defenses > Riposte. On most of my builds, both PvE AND PvP, I carry ED even if I'm not running a high Deadly Arts build.

You seem to have quite the hard on for Riposte. That's nice. Fortunately, this game is designed so that for every build, there is a counter build. With there being limits to how many players there are in PvP at one time, this means that not every fielded build will have its counter on the opposing side, making it seem more effective than it really is.

And after reading your posts, I'd like to say that I have a Sin build that rips to shreds any warrior build, regardless of what they field. If you'd like to test it out sometime, my IGN is Akuma Raion.

Shadowlion · Apr 01, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Asn's problem in PVE is they can not find a good position. DPS? elementalist can do much better. Anti spell? Mesmer can do it. Conditions? necromancer can do it well. It's all because asn has to melee and they die quickly.

ArKaiN · Apr 01, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

PvP:
People believe sins are potentially very good, but most are adepts of the good old "shadowstep into 4 people and die, then quit" school of fighting.
PvE:
Sins are fragile melee'ers, much like dervishes, and 90% of the ones i've grouped with try to tank instead of killing the eles and monks, like you're supposed to.

So mainly, there's just way too many idiots playing sins. And if you play one well, sorry, your rep was pre-ruined.

Shadowlion · Apr 01, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

I don't think asn has much problem in PVP, a good asn is very helpful, but it's not easy to become one.

HKSdivision · Apr 01, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlion

Asn's problem in PVE is they can not find a good position. DPS? elementalist can do much better. Anti spell? Mesmer can do it. Conditions? necromancer can do it well. It's all because asn has to melee and they die quickly.

lol.....did you just not read what people have been saying? If you know how to play an Assassin you DON'T die quickly! So don't jump to conclusions and assume every Assassin dies quickly.

ArKaiN · Apr 01, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKSdivision

lol.....did you just not read what people have been saying? If you know how to play an Assassin you DON'T die quickly! So don't jump to conclusions and assume every Assassin dies quickly.

yeah, not all of them, only like 95%

Don Zardeone · Apr 01, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

(My post is from and for pve perspective only)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

2. Assassins have 70 defense.
-So having -10 AL from the maximum is bad? Check out the inscriptions! Every one of them provides between 10-20 armor to certain areas, or a full 15 while attacking. Add one armor skill to that and you far surpass a warrior! On top of that, 75% blocking skills are very common in assassin builds, as they have more of them than any other, except perhaps the ranger. Assassins are however, the only profession who can keep them up constantly with only one skill.

You're making the common assassin mistake of saying that 70al is only 10al less than normal. 80AL is not normal. Normal standard AL is 60AL so an assassin has 10 more than the normal backline squishy.

The second part of the mistake is that assassins have, on average +/- 50AL or more less than the average warrior

Average minor rune assassin: 480health+30from weapon+50supvig = 560health.
Average minor rune sword warrior: 480health+30from weapon+50supvig+30shield= 590health
--->Warrior has more health than assassin if both play it safe and use minors only.

Average assassin defense: 70al vs everything without prefixes and suffixes
Average warrior defense: 80al vs everything, 100 al vs physical without prefixes and suffixes + 16al from shield = 96alvs all and 116AL vs physical
--->Warrior has 26AL more vs everything and 46more vs physical when comparing both base armour levels.

Extra perks for assassin armour: 2more pips of energy
Extra perks for warrior armour: -3 physical damage reduction from sub absorb, -1 to -2 phys DR from shield = -4 to -5 damage reduction
---> Assassin has more energy but warrior has built-in damage reduction

Popular prefix armours for the average assassin is the one with +15while attacking. Giving assassin 85al vs everything
Popular prefix armours for warrior (and I'm basing this from rune trader) is sentinel which is +20 vs physical giving the warrior an allround 116al vs everything.
(Problem: While attacking appears to be bugged or featured in a more complicated way. You will never get the +15 100% of the time that you attack something. This can be tested with counterattack. It's more like 50% of the time so that prefix is garbage I'll still list it as if it works)
--->With the popular prefixes warrior has 31more al vs everything than assassin (116-85=31)

Now it get's more interesting: skills
Popular staple skills for assassins: don't really know =X
Popular skills for tactics warriors: watch yourself +20+AL
Popular skills for strength warriors: dolyak signet+36+AL

The good warriors that I know will either spec much in str or tactics. Str guys will be sentinels, tactics guys MAY pack a stance too(and may bring legionnaires or glads). They'll have either one of those skills. 10-11-10 guys may even bring both.

Defensive statistics wise, warriors look a crapload better than assassins. Warriors who know what they're doing will either take ALL the damage and make it easy on the monk. Or they'll take very little damage while providing meatshields/bodyblock/watch yourself/shields up and other stuff for the rest of the party making it easier on the monk while beating the crap out of everything.

But all of this is trivialised by the MM hero who is in pretty much every party now and the easy availability of a watch yourself sidekick Koss...

It's a team game so if the someone fails.. euh, blame the monks XD

Bewn · Apr 01, 2007, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

2. Assassins have 70 defense.
-So having -10 AL from the maximum is bad? Check out the inscriptions! Every one of them provides between 10-20 armor to certain areas, or a full 15 while attacking. Add one armor skill to that and you far surpass a warrior! On top of that, 75% blocking skills are very common in assassin builds, as they have more of them than any other, except perhaps the ranger. Assassins are however, the only profession who can keep them up constantly with only one skill.

Don't forget that warriors have +20 AL vs Physical, Absorption Runes and another 16 AL from wielding a shield (well, except Hammer warriors of course

) on top of THEIR Inscriptions. Not counting "Watch yourself!" being a staple in most Warrior builds, but since it's also affecting party members, meh, you know what i mean

Samurai-JM · Apr 01, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

comparing warriors to assassins...

DEFENSE:

Warriors have a 100+ physical armor. good for them, they are the last ones to be attacked anyway so alot of good that does. theyre defensive stances are really very limited and they cant get much else(other than monk spells which are also limited due to extremely low energy and regen)

Assassins have only 70 armor. the most out of every profession other than warrior. Insignias raise it by 10-15 more, and stances increase block rates to constant 75% chance to block. Heals such as feigned neutrality allow MUCH higher armor while healing(as opposed to -40 of healing signet), and then shadow steps allow them to get in and out of action as needed. Half of the skills I just said are not needed when assassins are played correctly in battle.

OFFENSE:

Warriors have mainly pressuring abilities, and can easily keep characters busy, but other than a few high adrenaline attacks, there is little in the way of spiking. Warriors can also spread conditions such as bleeding, cripple, and deep wound, although the skills that cause them usually dont generate too much damage. They have many IAS stances to build faster adrenaline to power most attacks.

Assassins can pressure just as well with fast, low recharge, powerful dagger attacks such as all of the 2/4 second recharge skills. Moebius/Death Blossom has become a major part of this in PvE, and can still effectively pressure in PvP. This can be furthered by masses of conditions including cripple, poison, bleeding, deep wound, blind, and daze. There are always ways of incorporating nearly all of these into single builds without sacrificing potential. Assassins also have an ability that is much higher than warriors, spiking. An assassins spike normally deals 400+ armor ignoring damage, plus any damage from conditions. This spike is usually repeated once about every 20 seconds on a basic spike build. sadly, assassins have no IAS and commonly borrow one from warriors. With no too many effective stances or healing, warriors often have to switch to W/Mo to maintain enough health once the enemy finally focuses on them.

Comparison:
Warriors = High armor pressuring tanks which can either deal good DPS or spread conditions, but usually not both with much effectiveness.
Assassins = Low(er) armor pressure or spike meleers which can deal either good DPS with quick recharging, cheap attacks, or huge spikes filled with more skill efficient conditions. While having lower armor than warriors, assassins often rely on defensive enchantments and stances to maintain block rates and high healing/armor combinations.

Now I will leave this up to all of you, and i won't even say anything. But in all reality any profession can beat any other profession under the right circumstances. A 1v1 match between a warrior and assassin could go on forever, as both would prepare and load up on anti-melee skills to completely shutdown the enemy(this is why 1v1 is completely pointless). But the game really comes down to what is being done at the time of battle. Not even I will go against saying Warriors make better Tanks due to armor, and in some cases better pressurers, but I will say that Assassins make better killers, great pressurers, and survive just as well in the right hands. When everyone says that Assassins die too much, they most likely had bad experiences with an assassin who didn't know what he/she was doing. Another point here is that warriors are just... warriors. You go in with alot of armor and smack people around with a bunch of attacks then use healing signet every once in a while. Assassins however, can do anything from shutdown to dps to spiking, while having to maintain healing and defenses, and knowing enough strategy to escape or change targets when needed. An assassin takes skill and practice to master, a warrior simply doesn't. At least not nearly as much.

Also, every warrior post in this thread has been about defense. The funny part if the tanks in PvP don't usually get attacked until after everything else is dead, at which point the tank becomes useless. So if the only difference is armor/survivability, assassins(in good hands) can survive just as long, if not longer, than warriors. offense though... is a completely different story. assassins just dominate offensive abilities. the term fragile but deadly often comes up for assassins, and with training, the fragile goes away.

Zinger314 · Apr 01, 2007, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

Assassins have only 70 armor. the most out of every profession other than warrior. Insignias raise it by 10-15 more, and stances increase block rates to constant 75% chance to block. Heals such as feigned neutrality allow MUCH higher armor while healing(as opposed to -40 of healing signet), and then shadow steps allow them to get in and out of action as needed. Half of the skills I just said are not needed when assassins are played correctly in battle

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!

The reason I won't group with an Assassin in PvE is that they add nothing, not because they often. Who needs conditions and shutdown when I can kill enemies more consistantly with an Elementalist or Warrior?

Darkpower Alchemist · Apr 01, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

No, it doesn't. Read the build on Guildwiki. Think before typing.

Watch your tone,boy!

Quote:

And the Riposte build isn't a gimmicky build? No versatility at all, but effective in the right situation. I'd like to see your warrior Riposte Searing Flames...

I have actually beaten many SF eles, but not with Riposte/Deadly Riposte(but it was on my bar).AB let's me beat up on all sorts of guys like you.

Quote:

Expose Defenses > Riposte. On most of my builds, both PvE AND PvP, I carry ED even if I'm not running a high Deadly Arts build.

This is debateable, since they are employed in similar fashion.

[skill=big]Expose Defenses[/skill]

Mending Touch would solve this little problem,so then what could you do but die?

Quote:

You seem to have quite the hard on for Riposte. That's nice. Fortunately, this game is designed so that for every build, there is a counter build. With there being limits to how many players there are in PvP at one time, this means that not every fielded build will have its counter on the opposing side, making it seem more effective than it really is.

Effectiveness is the key here. The fact that if a sin is melee based, he will have to run into the riposte/deadly riposte skill is obvious. The only thing that has stood against me is a derv with mystic regeneration and the choice of 3 other enchantments, and I have found my way around that as well, but that's another conversation. Riposte is the logical way for a swordsman to do combat. In a sword fight, as in fencing, the riposte is the basis of most defenses in combat,allowing the swordsman to attack and defend at the same time. Maybe you should read up on the subject before you start trying to flame someone

.

Quote:

And after reading your posts, I'd like to say that I have a Sin build that rips to shreds any warrior build, regardless of what they field. If you'd like to test it out sometime, my IGN is Akuma Raion.

I very well enjoy beating up on people who think they have the ultimate build. I'm easy to find.

X Salvation X · Apr 01, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

I'm a mm and they tear me to shreds within a matter of seconds. That's why I hate them.