Curse

ensoriki · Mar 31, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Sins have plently of pressure

A Deadly arts assassin can annoy the monk when there team has constant degen on em.

Theres a sin e-denial build

Although never talked about Dark apostosy with critical eye and zealous daggers with something like gfte and critical strike is awesome enchantment removal

Locust fury+conjure flame+mark of rodgort, a sin that can spread burning and switch targets every 5 seconds.

Shroud of silence, monks lose half if not all of their skills!

Siphon strength melee not only weakens but helps criticals

a sin is a warrior/mesmer mix in my mind and they can do basically anything those 2 classes can do rather well

Wastrels collapse is not useless anti-kiting skill now if they made it shadow step if targets knocked down ^.6

scorpion wire...

Show me a sin skill that doesnt take away 1 of their counters

most professions need a secondary to get rid of their counters

moko · Mar 31, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

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With a Silencing mod the Daze on Beguiling is more than enough.

no its not.

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Well, Siphon strength, that gets love hearts from me, nice anti melee skill. sure the 15 energy looks back, but it's easy to regen energy, and using Ebon dagger can turn you into an anti melee warrior, using a good combo which allows you to do good damage Vs casters. And you havn't had a good look at the other hexes.

siphon strength sucks kthxbai. rofl, ever looked at the recharge & energy?

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Fevered Dreams > Black mantis > Black spider > Blinding powder > Twisting fangs.Just off the top of my head.

lol

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I have, and all assassins I saw were SP, and I see them in GvGs as well, and RA, and FA/AB, and TA. They are the most common assassin build out there, therefore becomes the icon of what we 1st think about when we say assassin builds, all proffessions have a sterotype, like Nuker, Mending wammo etc, most of which are seen as bad things, like Prot and healing monks.

bolded = lol. and no, its not the most common one, its pretty much the only "decent" one, why would i change to something that doesnt work when i have that?

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Monks are cowards, I'd say different if they buffed the smite line.

die²

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assassins really only do 1 thing: go in, attack chain, go out. thats it, over and over.

thank you for describing why i hate this goddamn class so much.

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Theres a sin e-denial build

thats the most horrible thing ive ever seen (if you mean the fearme one on wiki)

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Although never talked about Dark apostosy with critical eye and zealous daggers with something like gfte and critical strike is awesome enchantment removal

and dark aposwhateverthenameis is SOOOOOOOOOOOO hard to interrupt.

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Locust fury+conjure flame+mark of rodgort, a sin that can spread burning and switch targets every 5 seconds.

lol

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Shroud of silence, monks lose half if not all of their skills!

again, this is actually better on a /A.

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a sin is a warrior/mesmer mix in my mind and they can do basically anything those 2 classes can do rather well

warrior = pressure
mesmer = shutdown

you smoking crack?

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Wastrels collapse is not useless anti-kiting skill now if they made it shadow step if targets knocked down ^.6

huh? did you just say wastrels collapse sucks but it wouldnt if bla bla was the case? well its not so it sucks.

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scorpion wire...

...sucks.

any more idiotic replies?

Kiba of hidden leaf · Mar 31, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

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Originally Posted by Mokone

any more idiotic replies?

Did you ask if you wanted to smoke my butt crack?

moko · Mar 31, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

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Originally Posted by Kiba of hidden leaf

Did you ask if you wanted to smoke my butt crack?

yes.

12345

Patrick Smit · Mar 31, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Their isn't one assassin build you could even devise that could beat a riposte swordsman. For that matter, not one melee build you could come up with could beat a capable riposte swordsman.

Blinding powder? Thats all well and good, but riposte will be charged in 4 to 5 hits, and Deadly riposte is an energy skill. Your sin would be bleeding and DW'd before he knew what hit him. Mending touch stops all that blinding powder crap, so then what would you do,my friend, but die. Warriors when played well will always beat a sin. I've killed 3 sins at a time with a riposte build, though it took some doing and a good bit of luck, but 1 sin is never a problem.

Anyway, the point is that the hate is somewhat justified, since most sins run into the buzzsaw instead of doing what they should be doing, which is looking to shut off the power.

Expose defenses> any riposte skill: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Expose_Defenses

Kas · Mar 31, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

@Mokone:
No thanks. Yours was idiotic enough for the rest of this thread.
________

The assassin got its bad reputation primarily due to two reasons.

One: Tutorial too short to fully grasp and understand the mechanics of the class for most players.
Two: Afflicted Soul Explosion. A Sins Job is to kill things, in factions any melee class killing something is penalized by damagespikes. As the PVE Meta consists of AOE Mentality, it wasn't unlikely for a Sin to be instaspiked to death by the explosions.

Another flaw of the Sin Class is that they depend upon their chain to succesfully attach to the target for it to work. While the earlier regions of the game had the Soul Explosions and constant blinding by Throw Dirt, the later regions unloaded plenty of melee hate onto the Sin. Effectively taking him out of the game again.
So, constant death due to spike damage by actually doing their job plus melee hate preventing them from doing their job later on tinted the very bad reputation of the Sin Class. Not all Sins sucked, it's just that the Factions Campaign seemed to be built to explicitly counter this specific class.

Pro
+ Very high damage class.
+ Decent mobility
+ Uncompared single target damage
+ Fun to play

Contra
- A single heal/miss/block renders the chain useless.
- Single Target Damage (with the exception of Moebius Strike/Death Blossom)
- Not build for frontline duties (stacking up on enchantment based evasion is not the way to go - invitation for even more damage)

The Assassin has the highest damage potential on a single partymember. This damage potential however comes in bursts. The attack chains of this class are highly predictable and allways rely on a key element. Be it either a hex, an enchantment or a succesful hit with the next lower strike. Remove the hex, break the enchantment or let him miss just once and the whole spike goes down the drain. Hell, just heal once and the spike fails.

In essence:
The factions campaign murdered the reputation of the class by being build to counter meleefighters. They don't necessarily deserve their bad reputation. Atleast not anymore than all the other classes deserver theirs.
PVP Wise, a Sin can rise like a phoenix, yet crumble like a Bambi. And the only difference inbetween is the number one. One single reversal of fortune. One single miss. One ms of lag. One anything. There are too any ones that make a difference.
Under the right circumstances though, Sins rock.

Samurai-JM · Mar 31, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

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Originally Posted by Mokone

thank you for describing why i hate this goddamn class so much.

getting in, killing, getting out is bad? sorry you die to it so much, but still assassins can easily get in the battle and stay through the end of it just like any other class.

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Originally Posted by Mokone

thats the most horrible thing ive ever seen (if you mean the fearme one on wiki)

Again, sorry for the mass e-denial were giving you.

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Originally Posted by Mokone

siphon strength sucks kthxbai. rofl, ever looked at the recharge & energy?

gotta agree here, I never liked that hex. good against maybe... I dunno.

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Originally Posted by Mokone

and dark aposwhateverthenameis is SOOOOOOOOOOOO hard to interrupt.

very rarely used skill, assasult enchantments is almost always chosen over it, and I'd like to see you interupt that

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Originally Posted by Mokone

lol

it actually does work =0 I honestly don't prefer those conjure builds on assassins though. Moebius/Death Blossom or any other dual will more than do the job for DPS.

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Originally Posted by Mokone

again, this is actually better on a /A.

Not when the x/A can't do 500 dmg to you when your sitting there not casting spells!

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Originally Posted by Mokone

warrior = pressure
mesmer = shutdown

you smoking crack?

assassin = pressure (moebius builds, conjure builds, pure spike builds)
assassin = shutdown (enchant removal, spell shutdowns, daze/blind builds)
assassin = both at once!

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Originally Posted by Mokone

huh? did you just say wastrels collapse sucks but it wouldnt if bla bla was the case? well its not so it sucks.

agreed, I have no use for that skill. so many easier non-elite ways to KD.

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Originally Posted by Mokone

...sucks.

it can actually be very useful for kiters, just run away from them, they think "yay i escaped" and then BOOM theyre on their back with daggers ripping through them. again, rarely used though.

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Originally Posted by Mokone

any more idiotic replies?

not sure, but i THINK you already covered most of that, thx for posting!

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Originally Posted by Kas

Contra
- A single heal/miss/block renders the chain useless.
- Single Target Damage (with the exception of Moebius Strike/Death Blossom)
- Not build for frontline duties (stacking up on enchantment based evasion is not the way to go - invitation for even more damage)

Not true for the most part: single heals rarely shut down assassins, as they can easily do over 100 dmg more than the target has health. Blocks and misses though do cause problems, but can easily be avoided with skills such as mending touch(blind) or expose defenses(block)
Also, single target damage is only in those spikers, and thats only in PvE(except my AP spiker, which owns the pants off mobs in PvE), and then the moebius/DB builds are even better! just not as much fun

And the frontline duties are completely wrong(in my case anyway) as I've been known to rush in and stay up there for entire battles without dying at all.

And by the way, about the Beguiling Haze not being long enough, thats because it should not be used in pressure builds. The best way to use it is in a BoA spiker way with a hex before it(such as shadowy burden for best effect) then the 4 main spiking attacks, and maybe even impale. This will leave caster(and most melee characters from the sheer damage/conditions) dead long before the dazed wears off.

so...
any more insightful replies?

Kas · Mar 31, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

@Samurai-JM:
PVP wise -
Actually, a single healing spell can and will break the spike. Unless of course your target is running around with <400 initial Health due to runes. We're not discussing based on scrubs though, are we? Yes I know, in RA and wherever, some folks actually do that. They die fast. To anything.

And while blocks and misses can be prevented and cured, the chain is still broken and has to be recharged to go again. Besides, don't expect Expose Defense to stay on the target for long if the enemy monk is worth anything.

PVE wise -
The AI has impossible Attribute and Health Levels. They easily shrug off your 100 damage more with divine favor alone.

And about the frontline duties, mid to lowgame. Sure, those don't pose a problem. Endgame content, your enchantments will and are stripped and torn apart left and right. The few protective stances the Sin has almost all end on a succesful hit.

Shuuda · Mar 31, 2007, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Face it Mokone, your just plain wrong. Assassins have not been abandoned by GW, infact with the abessence of Soul Explosion in NF and prof, assassins have gained respect.

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Originally Posted by Mokone

no its not.

Odd, that +6 seconds of daze has nearly always worked for me (Of cource as with any build it can be stopped, but for the most part it works well)

But Like I said, what do you know about assassins compared to other people here?

Samurai-JM · Mar 31, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

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Originally Posted by Kas

@Samurai-JM:
PVP wise -
Actually, a single healing spell can and will break the spike. Unless of course your target is running around with <400 initial Health due to runes. We're not discussing based on scrubs though, are we? Yes I know, in RA and wherever, some folks actually do that. They die fast. To anything.

Single healing spells will not break the break unless its one of the huge ones like WoH. Plus since monks should usually be the assassin's first target, a single shutdown skill like SoS, BH, or maybe even Assault Enchants will destroy it.

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Originally Posted by Kas

And while blocks and misses can be prevented and cured, the chain is still broken and has to be recharged to go again. Besides, don't expect Expose Defense to stay on the target for long if the enemy monk is worth anything.

The chain isn't broken when another skill is used. And tbh I never had hex removal problem in most PvP areas... then again I'm usually using that BH build I mentioned earlier. Just as much power as SPboa spikers, but now with free caster shutdown!

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Originally Posted by Kas

PVE wise -
The AI has impossible Attribute and Health Levels. They easily shrug off your 100 damage more with divine favor alone.

Ohhh so THAT explains why I can kill enemies in FoW and Sorrow's Furnace so easily by myself... Thanks for clearing that up, seriously.

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Originally Posted by Kas

And about the frontline duties, mid to lowgame. Sure, those don't pose a problem. Endgame content, your enchantments will and are stripped and torn apart left and right. The few protective stances the Sin has almost all end on a succesful hit.

Uh... the only stance that ends on hit off the top of my head is Dark Escape. If you mean Neutality, thats not a stance but a healing enchantment which I dont use anyway(shadow refuge ftw!) But in case you haven't seen my Gate of Madness video, I never had a single enchantment stripped through the entire mission(and I did fight through the entire thing). Not just that, but in all of Torment areas I used a build similar to that one in my video, and I can't recall a single time I had an enchantment stripped...

Hmm... maybe I'm just lucky...

Shuuda · Mar 31, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

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Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

Ohhh so THAT explains why I can kill enemies in FoW and Sorrow's Furnace so easily by myself... Thanks for clearing that up, seriously.

Agreed, I played with Flashing blades and a simple combo of Jagged - Wild - Critical or BD (Having both on the same bar) and I had no trouble doing damage, or energy, or dying all the time in RoT (Well, no more than a normal good player)

Samurai-JM · Mar 31, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

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Originally Posted by Shuuda

Agreed, I played with Flashing blades and a simple combo of Jagged - Wild - Critical or BD (Having both on the same bar) and I had no trouble doing damage, or energy, or dying all the time in RoT (Well, no more than a normal good player)

Exactly, even with something as simple as the few 4s recharge skills, you can supply great amounts of DPS in any area. I went into TA with jagged, wild, and death blossom, and I think wild blow, and got a glad point.

Isil`Zha · Mar 31, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Their isn't one assassin build you could even devise that could beat a riposte swordsman. For that matter, not one melee build you could come up with could beat a capable riposte swordsman.

Blinding powder? Thats all well and good, but riposte will be charged in 4 to 5 hits, and Deadly riposte is an energy skill. Your sin would be bleeding and DW'd before he knew what hit him. Mending touch stops all that blinding powder crap, so then what would you do,my friend, but die. Warriors when played well will always beat a sin. I've killed 3 sins at a time with a riposte build, though it took some doing and a good bit of luck, but 1 sin is never a problem.

Great.. all you proved is that you killed 3 n00b sins... no decent player is going to waste their time on a PvE build like that.

Kas · Mar 31, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

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Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

The chain isn't broken when another skill is used.

Your chain is broken by a single miss. All classes that rely on skill combos to get their damage out suffer from this problem. Take out any part of the skill combo and it fails.
Part of the reason why distortion was so powerful that it had to be readjusted.

There seem to be strong feelings attached to the discussion, fueled by the mistreatment of the community towards Assassins. They prevent a neutral and objective discussion of the class.
There are clear signs for this as evidenced by defying any sort of contra to the class even after listing pros. And add in overdefensive bending of reality (denying negative aspects) to further accomodate a glorification of the class. The assassin has its strengthes but also its flaws. Otherwise the class would be broken and subject to an overall nerf like it has happened with the Ritualists, Paragons and will soon happen to the Necromancers. Not buffs as evidently shown in the 1st February skillupdate to Assassins.

moko · Mar 31, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

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Originally Posted by Shuuda

Face it Mokone, your just plain wrong. Assassins have not been abandoned by GW, infact with the abessence of Soul Explosion in NF and prof, assassins have gained respect.

face it Shuuda, you fail at reading my posts?

quoting myself from my very first post -

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in pve, i'd take them in a group anyday

?

i wasnt bashing assassins as a whole class, i was simply saying MY VERY OWN REASONS for not liking to PLAY the class.

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getting in, killing, getting out is bad? sorry you die to it so much, but still assassins can easily get in the battle and stay through the end of it just like any other class.

its not "bad" - i just see it as very boring way of playing. it really is the most boring thing ever to me. and I TA'ed a lot, and i really mean a lot, and its basically the only damage dealing class i havnt really lost to. playing as divert hexes does help a lot there, because nobody actually makes a good assassin build that doesnt rely on hexes.

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Again, sorry for the mass e-denial were giving you.

i actually never encountered this build, i just went to the TA section because i heard our build was posted there and stumbled across it and tested it in RA (i know this isnt really valid but, it didnt really work out as i hoped). Fear me wars > Fear me assassins.

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very rarely used skill, assasult enchantments is almost always chosen over it, and I'd like to see you interupt that

i do like assault myself, but the fact that it will only be handy against enchantments makes it too conditional for me to use, because it kind of ruins the damage.

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it actually does work =0

never tested it, faced some of those builds once but the players were total noobs so i cant judge if it actually works, it just looked so funny in my eyes.

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I honestly don't prefer those conjure builds on assassins though. Moebius/Death Blossom or any other dual will more than do the job for DPS.

i did test Moebius/DB and it didnt really work out for me as i hoped. and quoting a friend who used it in PVE "damn it thsi build sucks things die before i can even use moebius!" lol

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Not when the x/A can't do 500 dmg to you when your sitting there not casting spells!

its incredible good on a shutdown mes actually. you dont need to deal damage, you're just uber at shutting down while the others kill. i tried it on a primary assasin, it worked, but i kind of lacked the snare so my targets simply ran. :| and using dark prison (or whatever the name was) was quite energy costy..

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assassin = pressure (moebius builds, conjure builds, pure spike builds)
assassin = shutdown (enchant removal, spell shutdowns, daze/blind builds)
assassin = both at once!

its not a heavy shutdown, a daze or spell shutdown such as shroud of silence every 20 or 30 secs (i seriously cant recall those recharges, its been too long) doesnt make it a shutdown character in my eyes.

hopefully now someone will actually get my points. didnt really get the image of everyone using their brains so far.

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But Like I said, what do you know about assassins compared to other people here?

i tried one in PVE, i got bored very fast. i often face them, knowing how they work. i used to play them in PVP, and got bored as well. again - these are my opinions off assassins when i play them, nothing else.

Samurai-JM · Apr 01, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

^

How could you see it as boring though? The other classes are ALL just standing there either next to the enemy pounding on them or sitting in the back shooting people that you probably never even look at. Assassins are the ONLY class in this game with an action filled combat style.

And about the shutdown ability, all you need is two skills.

Shadowy Burden -> Beguiling Haze = the shutdown version of SPBoA.

Shadowy Burden is the hex, a snare, and an armor reducer. IMO the perfect start to any spike combo outside SP builds.
Beguiling Haze is the shadow step, interupt, and daze. Total shutdown to casters.

Basically its SPBoA with an extra addition of -20AL, spell interupt, and daze. So it costs a bit more energy, just start the combo off with BLS instead of BSS and your good.

Still have no idea at all how you can be bored playing the fastest and (imo) most fun profession in the game, but thats still just your opinion. I play many different builds with different purpose to great effect, and I have never once been bored on my assassin.

HKSdivision · Apr 01, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

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Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

Exactly. This is why I haven't used a pug since I got NF(except when teams were needed such as jennurs horder, DoA) and still got protector of Elona with henches.

Amen to that! I had my Assassin paused at Vasburg Armory about a week ago but decided to give it a whirl and continue on just to beat Factions. Next thing was to bring play NF with my Assassin. I had already acquired my heroes but I just had to level them up so I did that and ever since then I've been hero/henching everything because human groups are idiots (not all but most are before entering the Vortex)

Yesterday I was doing The Grand Court of Sebelkeh and I went with 2 PUGs...horrible just horrible. Nobody knew what to do and everyone went to attack their own target when one person was calling and said to ATTACK THE TARGET I CALL! But nope, they didn't listen. So I set up a hero/hench team and see if I can do it and shazam! I beat the mission in 6:17, only 17 seconds away from getting Masters!

Pretty darn good if you ask me. So I've decided not to rely on PUGs in NF until I enter the Realm of Torment which will be very soon.

I also asked myself why people hate Assassins and it's because of all those Narutard fans who went and screwed it all up for the rest of us who actually KNOW how to play one.

I think I'm pretty damn good at playing an Assassin, it was a challenge at first but now I'm a lot better than before.

Oh yes and I forgot to say, when I was in a PUG. I took down 2 enemies in the time that it took the Warrior to take down 1, lol. So no, Assassins don't suck, the person who is playing it doesn't know how to play them.

So for those who hate Assassins, just give them a chance and if they die right away in the midst of the battle then you know that they don't know how to play one and just kick them out of the group.

Assassins are fun to play if you know how to play one. I'm glad I started one and I'll be keeping him forever.

Samurai-JM · Apr 01, 2007, 12:10 AM // 00:10

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Originally Posted by HKSdivision

I also asked myself why people hate Assassins and it's because of all those Narutard fans who went and screwed it all up for the rest of us who actually KNOW how to play one.

NARUTARD thats the word I was looking for! xD A huge part of why Sins have such a bad rep is because of all the people who just don't know how to play them right, and thus are not good at playing them, and thus make people angry at them.

BTW RoT is still henchable, except for maybe Abaddon.

HKSdivision · Apr 01, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

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Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

NARUTARD thats the word I was looking for! xD A huge part of why Sins have such a bad rep is because of all the people who just don't know how to play them right, and thus are not good at playing them, and thus make people angry at them.

BTW RoT is still henchable, except for maybe Abaddon.

lol, If nobody will accept me in their groups then I'll just hero/hench them. I remember doing GoP with heroes and henchmen b/c I didn't care for the bonus so that went by quickly. GoM I hero/henched a few times on my Warrior b/c at the time there weren't a whole lot of people to make PUGs, I got to the end of the mission but we would just get pwned. Actually, Abbadon's Gate is hero/henchable I did it on my Warrior b/c again at the time that I was playing there weren't any PUGs so I tried it out and beat it.

haha, so now that I think about it I can just hero/hench the whole Realm of Torment if I want too

Enchanted Warrior · Apr 01, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

My question is this.. A Ssn has 70 armor, and does hand to hand just like a warrior. They should both have 80 armor no?