Curse

fireflyry · Sep 26, 2007, 03:19 AM // 03:19

This has gotten way to GvG specific.

X Cytherea X · Sep 26, 2007, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I won't generalize sins, but I'll say that most "good" sin builds are some variation of these:
a) shadow prison black lotus (aka 123456)
b) deadly arts gimmick spiker (aka 12345)
c) moebius combo

With some minor exceptions for specific cases (shattering assault, etc.), if you're not running one of those, chances are the build has much less offensive potential (either spike or pressure) than those 3 builds.

[skill]siphon speed[/skill][skill]black lotus strike[/skill][skill]twisting fangs[/skill][skill]black spider strike[/skill][skill]shattering assault[/skill][skill]remove hex[/skill][skill]mending touch[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

+ damage comparable to that of a spike
+ ONLY 12 or 15 cooldown depending on which dual you decide to use first
+ NOT 123456; can be 12345 or 12543 or 12545(4x enchant remove!) or even 1263475 (remove spirit of failure and blind in the middle of your combo!)
+ if siphon is removed, you dont wait 20 secs to cast it again!
+ NOT one of your "variations"

Mekkakat · Sep 26, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Not going to argue with the 20 billion flamers in this post, but here are my conclusions:
- most gimmicky class to play with lots of exploits
- hardest class to keep alive in pve when played by 99% of the people
- worst concept with little versatility outside of lots of gimmicky crap

I won't generalize sins, but I'll say that most "good" sin builds are some variation of these:
a) shadow prison black lotus (aka 123456)
b) deadly arts gimmick spiker (aka 12345)
c) moebius combo

With some minor exceptions for specific cases (shattering assault, etc.), if you're not running one of those, chances are the build has much less offensive potential (either spike or pressure) than those 3 builds.

The fact that there are essentially only 3 viable sin builds makes its versatility very low. The fact that 2/3 are no-brainer stuff that can be done reasonably well by anyone makes it gimmicky. Starters who try the moebius build is likely to get themselves killed in PvE, which makes it hard to play.

every thing's a "gimmick" when it kills you. if its 8 skills on a skill bar, its a build. if you die because of it, you're a sore loser, and most of all, if you call it a gimmick, you're a noob that wants to feel better by calling others names. i use all three, double black sins, augury sins, moebius sins, all fine and dandy....

i have 50 more builds that dont involve those.. want to talk?

name one or your prot builds without at least one of the following:
RoF
Shielding Hands
Dismiss
Prot Spirit
Spirit Bond

name ONE time where you dont follow up a prot like RoF with a damage negater like SH, or vice versa.

welcome to gws... we have EIGHT skills. you either use them all, or you have a dead skill on your skill bar which equals fail. if you bash sins, you bash every class in the game. every build takes timing, player skill, and knowledge of the games mechanics before anyone is GOOD, and imo, you have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to sins.

/wave Good Day.

Whirlwind · Sep 26, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

rits/mesmers/paragons are worse, maybe dervish

Wow, learn to play... on all 4 guesses

Bobby2 · Sep 26, 2007, 05:36 AM // 05:36

lolz at MASSIVE EGO TRIPS of trollers

Tired of this pointless discussion. I like my Sin. It does great for me. Picking the right targets has always been part of the job, but that's true for any class.

It's called Game Balance. G'day.

Snow Bunny · Sep 26, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

every thing's a "gimmick" when it kills you. if its 8 skills on a skill bar, its a build. if you die because of it, you're a sore loser, and most of all, if you call it a gimmick, you're a noob that wants to feel better by calling others names. i use all three, double black sins, augury sins, moebius sins, all fine and dandy....

i have 50 more builds that dont involve those.. want to talk?

name one or your prot builds without at least one of the following:
RoF
Shielding Hands
Dismiss
Prot Spirit
Spirit Bond

name ONE time where you dont follow up a prot like RoF with a damage negater like SH, or vice versa.

welcome to gws... we have EIGHT skills. you either use them all, or you have a dead skill on your skill bar which equals fail. if you bash sins, you bash every class in the game. every build takes timing, player skill, and knowledge of the games mechanics before anyone is GOOD, and imo, you have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to sins.

/wave Good Day.

The assassin's a gimmick because it can only really do one thing.

It's why an assassin is not a balanced character. It can't go toe-to-toe with another class for extended fighting. I mean, sure, without support, a frenzy Axe can't go toe-to-toe with an AoM derv, but they can fight each for a while with support.

The assassin will pop off the combo, hope for the kill, wait for the recharge on its elite skill, rinse, repeat.

Assassins, especially the SP 12345678, are certainly gimmicks.

BlackSephir · Sep 26, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's why an assassin is not a balanced character. It can't go toe-to-toe with another class for extended fighting. I mean, sure, without support, a frenzy Axe can't go toe-to-toe with an AoM derv, but they can fight each for a while with support.

What.
Maybe we need to clear up one thing.
Ok, here it comes
SP sin's skills aren't the only assassin's skills in the whole game

Bouldershoulder · Sep 26, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

I for one hope for the decrease in assassin numbers just because they think the Assassin sucks, or are really terrible at it. I love my sin, and as my belief goes: The less of a profession, the better. Things are all the more cheaper. Look at the Paragons and Mesmers, their runes, insignias, golds, and greens are virtually worthless. If all the stupid Naruto assassins in the game were to delete their characters, the player base would equal that to the Paragons and the Mesmers.

Mekkakat · Sep 26, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The assassin's a gimmick because it can only really do one thing.

It's why an assassin is not a balanced character. It can't go toe-to-toe with another class for extended fighting. I mean, sure, without support, a frenzy Axe can't go toe-to-toe with an AoM derv, but they can fight each for a while with support.

The assassin will pop off the combo, hope for the kill, wait for the recharge on its elite skill, rinse, repeat.

Assassins, especially the SP 12345678, are certainly gimmicks.

i have and know of at least 20 builds that can go head to head with both melee heavy, and hex danger settings, that will out live most odds, while still not having to use the seemingly only build you know ,the SP double black sin.

heres a few skills i guess you just never heard of:
critical defenses
flashing blades
holy veil
hex breaker
mending touch
and the list goes on....

not to mention any dancing sins, augury sins, smite drop sins, critical dervs, disrupting bows, splinter bombs, grasping nightmare sins, and the list again... goes on.

have you even played a sin before???

i think i've played an sp sin maybe 10-20 times total on my 1 mill exp+ sin, who has Legendary Survivor, and almost has PKM. i play to win, and im not going to play what is already feared and being countered in the meta. any good player can switch up their build, play style, tactics, whatever, same goes for a good sin player, or else i wouldn't play the assassin class.

this thread needs closed, 99% of the people on this website are trolls.

zknifeh · Sep 26, 2007, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The assassin's a gimmick because it can only really do one thing.

It's why an assassin is not a balanced character. It can't go toe-to-toe with another class for extended fighting. I mean, sure, without support, a frenzy Axe can't go toe-to-toe with an AoM derv, but they can fight each for a while with support.

The assassin will pop off the combo, hope for the kill, wait for the recharge on its elite skill, rinse, repeat.
Assassins, especially the SP 12345678, are certainly gimmicks.

Looks to me like all you are talkin about is the SP build which is laaaaaaammmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

like Mekkakat said, you really need to look at other skills that assassins have and other professions have which can be used very well with assassin skills
for example:
Conjures(meh)
Yaa!
Grenth's Grasp
and the list goes on and on

Master Ketsu · Sep 26, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

*mantra time*

GW is not a 1v1 game

GW is not a 1v1 game

GW is not a 1v1 game

GW is not a 1v1 game

GW is not a 1v1 game

GW is not a 1v1 game

GW is not a 1v1 game

GW is not a 1v1 game.....

Sins are for solo spiking down targets. They do it well. They have a place.

fireflyry · Sep 26, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

this thread needs closed, 99% of the people on this website are trolls.

I agree.

It's gone from interesting discussion to "Lets bash on a class using one build as an example" again and again and again and again.

Snow Bunny · Sep 26, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

i have and know of at least 20 builds that can go head to head with both melee heavy, and hex danger settings, that will out live most odds, while still not having to use the seemingly only build you know ,the SP double black sin.

heres a few skills i guess you just never heard of:
critical defenses
flashing blades
holy veil
hex breaker
mending touch
and the list goes on....

not to mention any dancing sins, augury sins, smite drop sins, critical dervs, disrupting bows, splinter bombs, grasping nightmare sins, and the list again... goes on.

have you even played a sin before???

i think i've played an sp sin maybe 10-20 times total on my 1 mill exp+ sin, who has Legendary Survivor, and almost has PKM. i play to win, and im not going to play what is already feared and being countered in the meta. any good player can switch up their build, play style, tactics, whatever, same goes for a good sin player, or else i wouldn't play the assassin class.

this thread needs closed, 99% of the people on this website are trolls.

I wasn't attempting to troll. And yes, using the SP sin was a bad example.
However, they spike down targets. It's what they do. And wait for their spike to recharge.

fireflyry · Sep 26, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

The main build I use in PvP these days is a variation of a Promise Deadly Arts build.

As long as my target goes down in the required time frame, which happens 90% of the time, I have no down time.

In an efficient team setting I can target and either solo kill or assist kill repeated targets, spread conditions, spike OR apply pressure, interrupt and soak up a truckload of damage with absolutely no down time in my chain what-so-ever between switching targets.

I also use Promise Dagger builds and a lot of builds with 3-4 downtime in my attack chain.

I could say we are better than Warriors in that they have to build up adrenaline to spike or use a majority of their high damage skills, after all they are also often in a period of "down-time" in order to run their 23456 chain but it's just on the other end of the scale, yet I would be ignoring both variation in build to counter this and also the tools available to the Warrior to increase his adrenaline gain.

Exactly the same principle holds true with Assassin's and down-time in attack chains besides which all classes have down time.Thats not a valid criticism of the class as any class has to deal with skill recharge and e-management.

The repeated mantra of using niche' spike builds to generalize the potential of an assassin is getting to be old hat.

Symbol · Sep 27, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Anyone arguing that assassins are gimmicky because they can't go 1v1 with another melee "with support" is retarded.

Seriously. Melee duels? With a frenzying warrior? WTF?

If your frontline is spending a ton of time hitting their frontline, then you need better players.

Also, learn what "gimmicky" means.

Also, assassin's promise is PHAIL in PvP. 45r elite hex that requires you to kill your target....yeah.

fireflyry · Sep 27, 2007, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Also, assassin's promise is PHAIL in PvP. 45r elite hex that requires you to kill your target....yeah.

I've had no issues and it's been one of the best skills for me in PvP.It's not like many people take hex removal.As stated 90% of the time my target is dead.

90% personal rate of success with instant recharge of all skills and energy return > your opinion.

Each to their own.

Anyway......

Mekkakat · Sep 27, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

regardless of the build, regardless of what your preferences are, sins, and ANY class in this game, has multiple roles, and multiple places where they shine. anyone disputing that, simply does not know how to play the game. the only class in the game with little utility other than Ebon Dust Aura, is the dervish, but other than that, they utilize a lot of well balanced support skills like Imbue, Intervention, and secondary support use skills like Mystic Regen.

to each his own way, and i feel bad for all the people bashing the assassin class, because they miss out on a fun, fast-paced profession, and an entire aspect of this game.

moriz · Sep 27, 2007, 04:14 AM // 04:14

yes, sins can perform multiple roles. that part was never in contest. in fact, you can make any profession do anything if you know the situation beforehand. the question is, can that sin build that you made up for a specific role/situation be able to perform up to snuff when asked to perform something it is not designed to do. the answer, for all of them, is no. a better way to put this is: can a sin build perform multiple roles without changing anything on its skillbar? the answer, is no.

a spike sin cannot hope to pressure or disrupt effectively. generally much of their skillbar is dedicated to unloading that spike chain. if that chain fails to work, the sin can't do anything else to remain effective. similarily, a sin designed to spread conditions cannot effectively spike. there's simply not enough damage in their combo to allow them to do that. a sin designed to pressure cannot spike. their combo is too long and too drawn out to spike anything. lastly, no sin build ever created can effectively lineback (to those who don't know, linebacking is playing disruptively on your opponent's frontline when your monks are about to fold to help them regain energy). for all these situations, because of the limitations placed on them by the combo system, sins can do one thing and one thing only: which is whatever their combo dictates them to do. they can do no more, and usually no less (unless the player fell asleep or got hit by a truck).

and that is why the assassin is regarded as a nonversatile and gimmicky character. yes, everyone knows you can design an assassin to do whatever you want it to, but the fact that they cannot hope to do anything else if they fail to perform. we are not bashing the profession. this is just the way they are.

Coloneh · Sep 27, 2007, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

I've had no issues and it's been one of the best skills for me in PvP.It's not like many people take hex removal.As stated 90% of the time my target is dead.

what kind of PvP are you talking about. In HA/GvG that hex will be gone in 2 seconds.

Stormlord Alex · Sep 27, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

The kind of PvP that isn't real PvP, methinks.
Of course, assassins are perfect in scrub arenas, because assassins are very effective characters to use against bad players, and bad players are somewhat effective using them.