Curse

Dodo The Extinct · Sep 06, 2007, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Imo, this thread will go on forever because "worst" is too broad of a term...

Coloneh · Sep 06, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Melody Cross you seemn to understand skills, but not professions. you entire post was about skills. the mesmer part is just plain silly. all of the interrupts are available to any profession with a secondary mesmer and interrupts dont lose any power with lower attributes. why would you play a mesmer primary?

and i have to disagree with you again. i dont know any good players who use gern for any reason other than that she looks good.

Snow Bunny · Sep 06, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Again...depends on the player skill...but still...

I hate taking Sins with me on PUGS. Because....my heroes probably have better skillbars/equipment..and are generally SMARTER.

Melody Cross · Sep 07, 2007, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

Melody Cross you seem to understand skills, but not professions. you entire post was about skills. the mesmer part is just plain silly. all of the interrupts are available to any profession with a secondary mesmer and interrupts dont lose any power with lower attributes. why would you play a mesmer primary?

and i have to disagree with you again. I don't know any good players who use gwen for any reason other than that she looks good.

Were that the case, no one would play mesmers in PvP. They'd just run E/Mes for the energy boosts the other profession has in abundance. The fact that so many hero builds rely on mes for their secondary does not detract from the classes power; it shows just how good it is. After all, if the mesmer skills are available to all professions, wouldn't it stand to reason that using them in their intended profession would make them even better?

Shutdown isn't just about interrupts. MoR/Diversion in most PvE areas is even more powerful than in PvP because the monsters don't have a full skillbar. High Domination improves the effectiveness of PD, of powerblock too, and increases the amount of time a single cast shuts a character down.

Runes increase damage and energy management for mesmers too, and the energy managers they have rely heavily on FC to be useful...instead of interrupt fodder for the other side.

Fast Casting makes the energy managers that mesmers do have worth bringing. People complain about the nerfish buff to drain enchantment. Its exactly what I wanted them to do. It took the energy manager out of the hands of monks (in itself, a buff to PvP mesmers if not in the direction many players wanted) but kept it in the hands of mesmers. It no longer serves 3 actions (spike assist, disruptive skill AND an energy manager) but it still does two. It steals an enchantment from something and gives you energy for doing it.

While Talkora was my primary mesmer in Tyria Hard Mode (low enchant strips made taking Life barrier an easy choice to H/H the game), I ran Norgu through Nightfall, considered him an integral part of many of my builds...and still use him today in conjunction with Gwen.

He's butt ugly and everyone knows it.

But him, Gwen, the mesmer and ranger henchmen are capable of shutting down bosses and monks (often capable of shutting down the entire mobs backline and most of their midline at the same time when I call targets and lock target right)...which let my warriors (and that EDA dervish previously discussed) have a field day on the other sides' red bars. My ele can get its hard hitting spells off without fear of AoE spike retaliation and without protective spells blocking their power. Many times, I just lock their targets, heal once or twice, and sit back to watch my build pwn Anets higher levels.

So when I agree with most players that heroes are not smart enough to run the really powerful builds effectively, you know that when a guildie wants to roll his mesmer and play with me, I woot because I know my job--and everyone else's--just got a lot easier. The fights are going to be much shorter, much more one-sided, and I will not have to exhaust my energy bar spamming heals and prots against the massive damage these EoTN and Hard Mode mobs are capable of throwing out. If you never cast, you die quicker and to less damage.

my point is: In caster heavy areas (and metas) there is nothing better than a solid disruptive midline. And there are no classes more capable of shutting down casters than mesmer.

I hope my post did not offend you Coloneh, after everything you previously said about mesmers. But please, do not assume that what you do is the only way to play this game. There are many other--and in some areas better--weapons to bring to a game than those found in the Holy Trinities red bar go up/down tactics. And it is just as important to bring those weapons on the right character--the best class to use them--as it is to use swords with sword mastery.

GG

Coloneh · Sep 07, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

wouldn't it stand to reason that using them in their intended profession would make them even better?

go back to pre searing and learn how primary and secondary classes work please.

also no one is denying the use of mesmers in PvP, but in PvE fast casting and extra points in mesmer attributes are just not useful.

Melody Cross · Sep 07, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

go back to pre searing and learn how primary and secondary classes work please.

also no one is denying the use of mesmers in PvP, but in PvE fast casting and extra points in mesmer attributes are just not useful.

I find it a little funny how you've accused mesmer lovers of calling you stupid because their argument has no leg to stand on, but your rebuttal to me consists of comments like this. I shouldn't, since it shows how much I have upset you.

It is obvious that I have offended you, and for that I do feel sorry. Please do not forget, I have not called you stupid. I have called you foolish. Some of the smartest people I know are capable of being some of the most foolish because their intelligence in one area makes them stubborn in others.

I do not segregate PvE and PvP. I am one of the few remaining--it would appear--holdouts that still consider this one game and enjoy all of its aspects. I do use PvP experience in PvE build construction, but I do not ignore the power of skills that would never see power in PvP play. The two cannot be completely separated for me. Before you insist this is the PvE forum, would you kindly link the post where a mod or GWGuru official has stated such?

I have tried to explain why FC and proper rune application makes mesmer an attractive profession to bring against PvE mobs. I have tried to show why mesmer primary attribute skills (Mantra of Resolve; and I probably should have explained how good Power Return is with high FC) can create builds that will be wonderfully effective at disrupting mobs. I have also tried to explain why runes increase mesmer skill effectiveness (not just the interrupt; the extra shutdown skills like PD and powerblock can offer).

Your post tells me that I have failed in this attempt. For that I feel very bad. I can only hope that you will continue to play, learn and grow as a player, so that one day you can come to understand just how good this class is. its not for everyone to play. And its not for every monster and every mob in the game. But in the areas that it does shine, mesmer is a blindingly bright character primary profession.

Back on topic. There are no bad classes, imo, and no one worst class because of this. There are classes that are played badly, or played wrongly for the area you are in and the mobs you face. I hope that my posts in this thread reflect that statement and will encourage all players to experiment beyond what they "know" works.

GGs

Samurai-JM · Sep 07, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Hmm well I haven't been on here in quite a while, and I even retired from GW a bit, but im back into EOTN now and I don't really know what to expect. If people are still just running SPBOA sins around then all is lost >< Sins are diverse if you know how to use em, I've said that for months. They own in the right hands, and die alot in the wrong ones.

jesh · Sep 07, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Melody Cross:
Go to www.guildwarsguru.com/forum
Under the Campfire section, it says:

Quote:

PvE Builds and Discussion
Share your strategies, experience and tips here for builds and groups for PvE.

As far as mesmers and PvE:

Try this since you claim to be so open minded.
Take Acolyte Jin, Margrid the Sly, and a third ranger hero or Zenmai.

But Barrage and Splinter Weapon, Distracting Shot, Favorable Winds and Savage Shot on each bar. Run 12 marksman, 9 expertise, and leftovers in channeling.
If you use Zenmai, give her Critical Eye, Sharpen Daggers, and Barrage.
Go to a large group of enemies. Before battle, lay down FW and cast Splinter Weapon on each character in your party that will be attacking. Call out a target in the middle of a mess of enemies.

Watch the results and compare to a party with 2 mesmer heroes.
You will find the battle is several times shorter, and if disruption is necessary, it is certainly there.
Worst case scenario = adding Broad Head Arrow or Concussion Shot to one of the rangers.
Mesmers are all well and good, but their value goes down in PvE *greatly* due to 1 simple fact:

A dead enemy doesn't need to be disrupted or disabled.
And to the OP's query, assassins are definitely one of the best at accomplishing this.

Coloneh · Sep 07, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Melody cross- im going to do this in bullet points. maybe you will get it then...

-this is the pve forum
-PvE and PvP are different games. if you think you can use the same build/tactics in both then you are sorely mistaken.
-Fast casting is not very useful
-Damage is effective
-having more points in an attribute that deals damge is more useful than casting spells faster
-disrupting mobs is not useful.
-killing mobs is useful.
-the rare enemies that do need some sort of interrupts can easily be covered by a ranger hero that also does plenty of damage.
-single target damage is not as useful as AoE damage.

theres a few things for you to ponder.

Melody Cross · Sep 07, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

TY for the link jesh, I stand corrected.

I've never tried Barrage on my sins. When I did run something similar, the AoE from Splinter with daggers is enough if I prot her well and give her good of teleports to use, plus it gives me the added bonus of throwing in a Mobius strike/Death Blossom combo into the mix.

I will try your suggestions if I get another nice bow to drop (the /bonus ones are junk). I have run a full B/P with a friend, now that we have Pyre. It is quite nice for some areas.

For Coloneh.

-I have stated as much as of this post.
-Most of the PvE builds you use today find their roots as overpowered PvP exploits. Study of PvP improves performance in PvE. It teaches proper kiting. It teaches proper agro control via placement. It teaches.
-Even if fast casting is not as useful for you as it is for me, the skills it has make up for its failings as a PvE attribute. But it is useful for me.
-Damage is effective when your character can deal that damage to solid effect. If you’re spamming damage through prots, you’re casting more times than you need to. I submit that my 1 dual attune ele can kill faster than your 2 SFs when he doesn’t have to worry about it getting healed.
-getting a spell off without having it being Dshotted or Powerblocked (ty Anet) will do more damage than you will wanding while your bar recycles. The BSurge that never lands, never blinds your ranger.
-disrupting monks helps you keep your hexes in place longer, helps your warriors hit without worrying about Aegis. I saw again; if disruption weren’t useful, why all the Mo/Me Hero builds? Is Power Drain just an energy manager to you? If that is the case, put Channeling on your heroes. It gives back more when they need it instead of one big, wasted clump when they don’t.
-duh. And interrupting their res isn’t?
-In some areas, it is. For some people, it is. You may be one of them. I don’t care at this point.
-shutting down the right target can let other members of the team deal more damage for less energy. Oh, and I wouldn’t let the warriors, sins or get a chance to read that little statement. Edit and remove before you get flamed.

Beyond youre continued FC bashing, nothing you’ve said contradicts what I’ve said. I never said AoE wasn’t good. But good disruption makes it better and cheaper. It helps support your midline and backline, in the right hands. You’ve turned into the equivalent of a 13 year old telling people who've been down the road you're traveling how you know better than thye do. I was wrong. You aren’t simply being foolish…and I’m wasting my time trying to explain this to you.

GGs

Nikki Moonlight · Sep 08, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

power drain is an energy manager, with an interrupt as an added bonus, imo. channeling is rarely good outside of HA , since you don't ever want your monks that close to the enemies. but gotta agree with Coloneh in general too..mesmers are sometimes fun to play, but other classes are just more effective in PvE in general.

Coloneh · Sep 08, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

done arguing with you cross. nothing you said in your last post made any sense. it dosnt sound like you have ever played PvE.

haggus71 · Sep 08, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

In the beginning, PvE was the set-up for PvP. You leveled up, unlocked skills and weapons mods there, then went to own in PvP. Thing is, the PvE side took off, and Anet saw they needed to do more for those players.

Mesmers were always dominant in PvP. In the beginning they were great in PvE as well. Then came the mobs in Factions and the high-level mobs in Nightfall, along with SF/SH. Yeah, a Mesmer can still do the job, but your average group doesn't want to sit around chiseling away at a mob as it degens. They want to get it done fast as possible, especially since many missions are timed for Masters. Why take a Mesmer when a SS/MM Necro can do the job better? And yes, FC deserves the hate, because every primary owns it. PvP, with limited team size and human casting speeds, works great for the mesmer, even with the nerfbat. PvE, with crazy mobs and AI speed on casting, does not. These are facts. Too many people, including those who play mesmer often(mine just finished EotN), see this for what it is. It's logic. If you think it's a fun class, you play it. Just don't deceive yourself into thinking a Mesmer will eliminate the mobs better than an ele or a necro. That isn't their job, and, unfortunately, that is what PvE wants. Damage.

Sorry I contributed to this being a Mesmer discussion. Can we move back to the greatness of sins, please?

No one spikes like them. No one can get in and out as fast as them. No one looks as cool doing what they do. Sins are fun AND useful.

fireflyry · Sep 08, 2007, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

I do not segregate PvE and PvP.

Your joking....surely.

Azrayel · Sep 08, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Sin worst char in the game? Hell no!! In my opinion the worst char is the ranger. with their interuptions, blocking and blinding me all the time. That why I always make sure there is one on my team whether hero or pug dosen't matter, it's respect for the class. I love my sin and wouldn't trade her in for the world, but to say that there is a worst class in the game is just pure ignorance on how to run them. I don't run a mesmer or monk cause I don't like playing them, yet again I have great respect for those that can. That dosen't make them a bad class.

I have seen stupid warriors,monks,mesmers ect.Thats why I like playing with random pugs, it's more of a challenge and if you make it thru the mission you feel that you accomplished something other than making it thru with the normal cookie cutter team. To classify sins as the only class to have stupid people running them is border line racist.

In my opinion the worst class in the game is the one that can kill me, but it's my fault to hate them if I can't find a way to beat them....that makes me the worst class.

Snow Bunny · Sep 08, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

Sorry I contributed to this being a Mesmer discussion. Can we move back to the greatness of sins, please?

No one spikes like them. No one can get in and out as fast as them. No one looks as cool doing what they do. Sins are fun AND useful.

Except....

they're glass cannons that spike and die. At least.....99% of them. I can honestly with all great confidence say that I have never played on a team with a sin and not regretted it, at least in pve.

In pvp they were broken.....still sort of are...but that's different.

Yanman.be · Sep 08, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Snow Bunny, seems like you've met the wrong sins then.

Azrayel · Sep 08, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

it may be just me but I don't understand what you mean by broken. Is there any class in game that is not "broken"?

Coloneh · Sep 08, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Snow Bunny, you seem to have the same experience with assassins that ive had with Paragons. I assure assassins can be quite useful and survivable. im sure you know they can spike, but spikes dont win PvE. sustained DPS does. and a mobius + DB build has great dps along with survivability. sadly though most PvE sins are either complete idiots or PvP players attempting to use PvP tactics on mobs.

xaleo21 · Sep 08, 2007, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Warriors / basic infantry
Dervishes / advanced infantry
Assassins / elite infantry
Paragons / infantry support
Monks / medics
Necromancers / relief
Ritualists / relief
Mesmers / anti casters
Elementalists / superweapon
Rangers / sniper

I'd say the Ranger is the "worst" but they're still good / usefull.