Curse

LaserLight · Nov 22, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moriz

...as such, all sin builds should be nerfed to the level of the AoD shock assassin build to preserve game balance.

I would like a response to this quote, taken from the closed Horns of the OX vs. Bull’s Strike thread, because quite frankly, this line has incensed me beyond comprehension and I feel I cannot allow it to go undisputed.

I am going to assume that by AoD Shock Assassins, you mean War Machine’s bar from Factions Release, which consisted of Aura of Displacement, Shock, and Falling Spider into Twisting Fangs with associated support. If this isn’t to what you refer, please correct me so that I may better comprehend.

If it is, however…allow me to point out that a typical adrenal axe spike very nearly outdamages this bar, for all intents and purposes. Even War Machine relied on massed Conditions, Disrupting Stab and predicting very stupid enemy A.I. against unprotted targets with no healing and no runes or insignias to make this build work, conditions which just do not happen in a real fight. Especially as Twisting Fangs has suffered a damage reduction in the intervening months, Aura of Displacement has had its Energy requirements and recharge hit, and many of the key supporting skills of the build are either outdated or equally nerfed.

For this ability to kill totally unprotected NPCs and to, possibly, contrive a minor inconvenience against PC characters, the Assassin loses over forty effective armor level when compared to a shielded Warrior and sacrifices attack versatility in its chosen strike, as well as giving up the I-want-free-attacks-please adrenaline mechanic. It also loses the ability to equip a shield or offhand to boost AL or Energy, as well as losing the second set of boosting mods that second piece of equipment can carry – not a minor consideration. The Assassin is also typically treated as a high-priority target which is often vulnerable both to anti-melee counters and anti-spell counters, making it an even more fragile and difficult class to employ effectively. In addition, most Assassins must function in melee range to be effective, requiring them to be in the most dangerous position on the battlefield: extended beyond their own back- and midlines, within full range of all of an enemy team’s players and at inconvenient range from their own healers. This is dangerous enough – however, it gets worse. Unlike Warriors and Dervishes, an Assassin’s principal weaponry, the daggers, deal virtually no combat damage on autoattacks. Unlike Warriors and Dervishes, Assassins cannot generate additional combat pressure simply by autoattacking, not and remain effective.

To sum it up: Assassins are fragile, rigid, and unable to keep up in a skill-less damage race with any other character in this game while being forced to operate at the most dangerous portion of a battlefield, often by nature being forced to overextend and place themselves in virtually inescapable danger of death. In exchange for this monumental shafting in damn near all respects, we are supposed to have been given one power: the power to strike down a foe, without assistance from another player, in seconds.

Now ask yourself: do we have this power?

No.

In high-level play, an Assassin’s strike requires so much setup that no single Assassin could possibly carry everything he needs to successfully eliminate his target alone. First of all, the target’s protections must be stripped from him. This requires a blanket enchantment-stripping spell such as Gaze of Contempt or similar abilities, as well as the ability to deal with defensive Skills and Stances – typically accomplished with Expose Defenses. As well as the selection of a target who is not simply standing in a Ward or sufficiently near a Paragon. Second of all, it must be ensured that the target’s protections cannot be swiftly reapplied, by either the target himself or players friendly to the target. This requires that multiple players be disabled simultaneously, or the intended elimination will almost surely fail – and this sort of mass disabling is almost impossible to do. Third, the Assassin himself must be able to fully eliminate a Health-boosted, highly durable target in the bare handful of seconds the almost Herculean effort of exposing a target and ensuring that he remains exposed yields for a kill. There is a reason Assassins are never seen in high-level GvG anymore – their function is well-nigh impossible to achieve in such battles.

And now…and now, you wish for Assassins to be stripped of even their ability to kill at all? You wish for Assassins to be so weakened that even if a guild can manage the virtually impossible task of opening a window for an Assassin’s strike, that the Assassin be unable to strike hard enough to make the effort successful? How dare you! By God man, what else do we have?!

Even should an Aura/Shock Assassin be given an opportunity to successfully complete its entire attack chain against an unprotected target - a situation most high-level Guilds would laugh at as being impossible against them - the target will have a significant amount of health left. Normally, the 7 degeneration from Bleeding and Poison, combined with Deep Wound, could finish them – but in a real fight, all of those conditions will be off the target in five seconds – two seconds after the target’s health has rebounded back to full. In the meantime, the Assassin is down for a minimum of twenty seconds, has likely suffered crippling damage in the wake of his strike - provided he is skilled enough to have escaped at all - and is suffering from Exhaustion, slowing his ability to strike again even further.

How can you possibly say that Assassins need to be weakened even further? Even the strongest of Deadly Arts spikes these days needs sixteen spec and everything they have to drop a target in one go, and those strikes themselves are unable to slash down an enemy’s undamaged Monks, who often have over six hundred Health. As for Dagger spikes…no such thing exists anymore.

We are already the weakest competitive class in this game, bar none – even the endlessly nerfhammered Paragon. There is no possible justification whatsoever for such a drastic slashing of the Assassin’s abilities, not unless the class is completely reworked to give us back some of what we had to give up for our one remaining gimped, barely-functional trick.

Barring that…please do tell me, how can you possibly justify so destroying this class?

blkhawk153 · Nov 22, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

laserlight I agree that sins shouldn't be nerfed any more, but despite the nerfs, the class isn't now as weak as you say it is. it's just not overpowered like it was before.

LightningHell · Nov 22, 2007, 10:51 AM // 10:51

The conception of an instagib character is bad at the start.

Therefore, for the sake of balance, the 'sin has to go, or at least be reworked.

And in NO WAY are sins the weakest competitive class in the game.

I should really get back to working on my math portfolio.

X Cytherea X · Nov 22, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

well said, LaserLight dude. \m/ -_- \m/

Shuuda · Nov 22, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54

How funny that all the people who think assassins are fair for some reason have A/ in the proffession under their name. The fact is, the only good assassin builds out there right now are all gimmicky spikes says something to me. Assassins just aren't as flexable in their build as warriors, rangers, and heck, I'd even say Paragons are better as far as flexability and balance goes.

/best discovery ever.

/Narshen Declares X Cytherea X noob.

Azrael the Needle · Nov 22, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

"Assassins just aren't as flexable in their build as warriors, rangers, and heck, I'd even say Paragons are better as far as flexability and balance goes."

Clearly you dont play an assassin often, or at least when playing it you are not creative. The assassin being my main character since over a year, I have been forced to make up new builds in order to keep it fun, be that good or bad builds. Most of them have been just tests of a build that turned out badly, but several have been effective. I combine my skill set with that of different secondaries, and all serve their purpose for a select occassion. And by the way, how can you possibly say warriors are more flexible than assassins? Have you often seen a warrior who doesnt run adrenaline skills? None at all? To me at least, thats not a common sight. But assassins, on the other hand, many times dont even use daggers. Heck, just remember than cookie cutter signet spike with A/E and Blinding Surge. You gonna tell me that doesnt come out of what might have been expected during the assassins creation? I wont go into details with the other professions, mainly because I dont feel like it, and also because they are indeed flexible. So, to finish my comment, assassins ARE very flexible, but here is what the problem is, and it honestly makes me feel bad. Most(not all) of the people playing assassins are retarded. When they ping their builds Im seriously asking myself if I should laugh, rant or cry. Im sure you have all seen terrible builds, but I was greatly shocked when someone pinged a build with 4 dual attacks and no lead/off hand. When asked why he had no lead/off hand, he said "Why would I wanna take those? Dual attacks deal more damage! The more duals, the more damage! The more damage the better!" When explained that it did not work that way, he refused any advice and called everybody a n00b and left. Do you guys get my point? Dont rant the sin, rant the sin players!

fireflyry · Nov 22, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Nice read and well said.

zknifeh · Nov 22, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

/applaude LaserLight

Stormlord Alex · Nov 22, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

/yawn.

That AoD should be the roundabout limit of sin spike power - only just topping an Axe spike.

You don't need to worry about positioning, building adrenaline, any of the other stuff that warriors have to deal with so they can spike. The challenge and skill required to pull of a sin spike are much less than for other physicals who can't shadowstep freely, so the rewards should not be an instagib (instagib class = bad for PvP, btw. Yes, assassinating is not good)

IMO, they should buff lead-offhand-dual combos so they can actually do something useful - I'm talking pressure on par with other physicals - then go and buff stuff like Siphon Strength, effectively turning the assassin into a physical damage dealer that replaces brute force tactics of the Derv or hardiness of the Warrior with shutdown options instead, allowing flexibility of the 3 classes as frontliners, depending on what a team needs.

... then kill instagib 123456 spikers and shadowstepping. And, voila! We have a good profession.

ensoriki · Nov 22, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Overall the assassin is somewhat weak.

But we have some very strong synergy combos like SP IAS sin or Deadly paradox Signet sin.
That gives people reason to complain, otherwise the assassin is not as huge a threat as people make them out to be.

Overall the assassin isn't Run for the hills >.> Just those 2 combos

Nice laserlight >.>
But sin's are flexible, we are somewhat similar to our Other dexterous relatives, the ranger.
The assassin can do things because the use of High Critical Strikes lets him do gimmick builds like crit scythe/hammer/spear/bow.
Like the ranger can do expertised scythe/hammer/spear etc.
The assassin can play as a runner, so can the ranger
The assassin can snare decently, so can the ranger.
The assassin can shutdown melee, so can the ranger
The assassin can shutdown Magic, so can the ranger >.>
Although other classes can do the same >.> Sin's are about as flexible as rangers.
Its just in pvp Why be Flexible and play different roles.
When you can just have someone dead on the floor >.>

Quote:

they should buff lead-offhand-dual combos so they can actually do something useful - I'm talking pressure on par with other physicals - then go and buff stuff like Siphon Strength, effectively turning the assassin into a physical damage dealer that replaces brute force tactics of the Derv or hardiness of the Warrior with shutdown options instead, allowing flexibility of the 3 classes as frontliners, depending on what a team needs.

Siphon strength is 1 of the most balanced Utility a sin has >.> just needs Target cannot critical and its set for life and will never need another change. (unless its 5 energy..but I don't see why it would need such a low cost)

Stormlord Alex · Nov 22, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Siphon strength is 1 of the most balanced Utility a sin has >.> just needs Target cannot critical and its set for life and will never need another change. (unless its 5 energy..but I don't see why it would need such a low cost)

Which is why I used SS as an example, to show people what 'sins ought to be doing.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mark of Death, Mark of Insecurity and Scorpion Wire actually did something worthwhile?

moriz · Nov 22, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

The conception of an instagib character is bad at the start.

words of ultimate wisdom.

like i said in my other post, you can make assassins have 1 hp, but able to do 600 damage on demand, and people will STILL play it. they'll just dedicate 6 character slots to babysitting two 1 hp assassins, and instantly able to compete on a level they have no business in. making an entire profession all about doing 600 damage, and turn around to say that it's balanced because it is "fragile", is utterly stupid in a game balance perspective. so for the love of all that is still holy, STOP using this asinine argument.

ensoriki · Nov 22, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Which is why I used SS as an example, to show people what 'sins ought to be doing.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mark of Death, Mark of Insecurity and Scorpion Wire actually did something worthwhile?

SCorpion is not a bad skill, it means that the assassin has to use Positioning and timing.

Staying right out of the 100m requirement means the assassin will not activate scorpion wire, Using Dash straight into the requirement interrupting a opponents key skill and giving a knockdown is also usable to an assassin.
Other than that little complicated example, scorpion wire, gives the idea of shadow step a bit of a better requirement to meet and for a good reward.
Last time I checked scorpion wire is half-ranged, that means the assassin must position themself into half ranged, in which case they are close enough for the enemy to see. Then they must escape from there enemy 100 metres.
Also there enemy could pull from THEM, screwing the assassins timing.
Scorpion wire is a good skill.
Maybe the recharge needs a peek at =P

Mark of death...hmm ya.
If Mark of Death was -5 degen and takes 33% less from healing I think it would work (maybe a recharge fix)

Mark of insecurity is odd, its the hex that gives 50% less duration from enchantments and stances right?

Making it
Target Foe uses 5 more energy for all skills (even signets =P)
And has 50% less duration from enchantments and stances.
That or an attack speed debuff (like 50%)
And making it half ranged....
__________

Quote:

like i said in my other post, you can make assassins have 1 hp, but able to do 600 damage on demand, and people will STILL play it. they'll just dedicate 6 character slots to babysitting two 1 hp assassins, and instantly able to compete on a level they have no business in. making an entire profession all about doing 600 damage, and turn around to say that it's balanced because it is "fragile", is utterly stupid in a game balance perspective. so for the love of all that is still holy, STOP using this asinine argument.

Lol as long as Life-Sheath persists and HP boosting (vital boon/Vital weapon/Vital blessing)
Sins won't have 1 hp =P which supports that even with 1 hp and 600 damage they can work.

BUT, moriz, assassins have not always done this 600 damage that you talk about.
Pre nightfall assassin's werent 600 damage hitters, maybe 500 (depends), but assassin's had better build compression etc.

Shuuda · Nov 22, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Since I can hardly be arsed to argue with assassin fanboyz. I'll just say this.

-The only thing assassins can do well are single minded instagib junk. These spikes take little skill, and fool players into thinking they are good.
-Anything else you claim assassins can do, could be done by a Mesmer, Necro, Ranger or Warrior much better, thus it is sub bar, and not worth playing.

Quote:

The assassin can play as a runner, so can the ranger
The assassin can snare decently, so can the ranger.
The assassin can shutdown melee, so can the ranger
The assassin can shutdown Magic, so can the ranger >.>

Perfect example thank you ensoriki:

Water eles and Rangers can snare far better than sins
Mesmers and Air eles can shut down melee better than sins.
Mesmers can shut down casters better than sins.
Eles and monks, and Rts are better flag runners than sins

Why would I want to run an assassin to do them jobs, then there are proffessions that can do it better?

zknifeh · Nov 22, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

nobody is asking you to run a sin
u can just go on and spread your cinditions and interupts on ppl
meanwhile i will be the one bringing them down

LightningHell · Nov 22, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Snip

Flexible as in ability to adapt to different roles.

Carry on.

Also...A/E Blinding Surge?

Wha?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Overall the assassin is somewhat weak.

I beg to differ, instagibbing via rolling head on keyboard isn't weak at all...

Especially since you really can roll your head on the keyboard and instagib.

Quote:

But we have some very strong synergy combos like SP IAS sin or Deadly paradox Signet sin.
That gives people reason to complain, otherwise the assassin is not as huge a threat as people make them out to be.

Overall the assassin isn't Run for the hills >.> Just those 2 combos

The whole concept of an Assassin is to provide such an instagib combo. Hence, the overpoweredness.

Quote:

Nice laserlight >.>
But sin's are flexible, we are somewhat similar to our Other dexterous relatives, the ranger.
The assassin can do things because the use of High Critical Strikes lets him do gimmick builds like crit scythe/hammer/spear/bow.
Like the ranger can do expertised scythe/hammer/spear etc.
The assassin can play as a runner, so can the ranger
The assassin can snare decently, so can the ranger.
The assassin can shutdown melee, so can the ranger
The assassin can shutdown Magic, so can the ranger >.>
Although other classes can do the same >.> Sin's are about as flexible as rangers.
Its just in pvp Why be Flexible and play different roles.
When you can just have someone dead on the floor >.>

You joke?

Shuuda · Nov 22, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Also...A/E Blinding Surge?

He is refering to the original Signet Spiker.

Blinding surge (when it was 5e)
Dancing daggers
Entangling Asp
Sig of toxic shock
Sig of Shadows
Broken Paradox
Other
Res signet.

ensoriki · Nov 22, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Flexible as in ability to adapt to different roles.

Carry on.

Also...A/E Blinding Surge?

Wha?

I beg to differ, instagibbing via rolling head on keyboard isn't weak at all...

Especially since you really can roll your head on the keyboard and instagib.

The whole concept of an Assassin is to provide such an instagib combo. Hence, the overpoweredness.

You joke?

You really like to nitpick don't you.

By flexability I meant Assassins can do other gimmick builds (no not instagib, I mean gimmick as in using a weapon not of your profession =P thats flexible).

Now your nit picking on Instagib >.>
Overall and one trait is a bit different >.>
Not all of the assassin skills are really good for "instagib"
Thus overall, there particularily weak.
However there are a some skill synergies that lead to the instagib you are talking about.

Stop nitpicking >.>

ensoriki · Nov 22, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Perfect example thank you ensoriki:

Water eles and Rangers can snare far better than sins
Mesmers and Air eles can shut down melee better than sins.
Mesmers can shut down casters better than sins.
Eles and monks, and Rts are better flag runners than sins

Why would I want to run an assassin to do them jobs, then there are proffessions that can do it better?

Oh I wasn't saying they do it the best.
I was saying they can do it.

Hermos · Nov 22, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

How funny that all the people who think assassins are fair for some reason have A/ in the proffession under their name. The fact is, the only good assassin builds out there right now are all gimmicky spikes says something to me. Assassins just aren't as flexable in their build as warriors, rangers, and heck, I'd even say Paragons are better as far as flexability and balance goes.

LOLZ. Alright, that's out of my system. Moving swiftly on... The current 'good' 'sin builds out there aren't gimmicks, if you're talking about PvE. In PvP, well, that's because everyone adheres to the assassin stereotype (One hit K.O) whereas that kind of implementation is not feasable within a balanced game like Guild Wars (before anyone tries to quote me on 'balanced', I can assure you I did not truly mean GW is perfectly balanced).

I believe that assassins are not overpowered. Why? Every single class has some kind of power to completely obliterate the assassin. That's the whole point of balance, to make all classes vulnerable (but at the same time, strong) against each other.

To the OP; the class isn't weak. HotO got nerfed, so what? We still have the highest DPS in the game. We still have the old flexibility of taking on other professions as our own (crit sythe, axe, spear, barrage) and we can still use criticals to our advantage. How can you possibly say we're a weak class when the class has so many advantages over others?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Why would I want to run an assassin to do them jobs, then there are proffessions that can do it better?

Because, my dear fellow, assassins can do them all at the same time. Golden Fox Strike, Wild strike, Assault enchantments, impale (off the top of my head) provides Unblockable +damage (ranger), stance removal (warror), enchantment removal (necromancer/mesmer) and earth damage and deep wound (ele/warrior).