Curse

Bobby2 · Dec 19, 2007, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

You're training the same target as your Warrior?

When given the opportunity; yes. Usually I can create this opportunity by taking someone out of the fight with SSpeed-BMT.

LightningHell · Dec 19, 2007, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

TY =P

See theres the thing, Warriors do not have to dedicate their bar to insta-gib last time I checked, Rangers sure as hell dont, dervish's don't, paragons don't. Assassin's can be played to an extent without insta-gib, however they are inferior to insta-gib assassins 95% of the time. This goes back to the competitive scene of GW. Why play something thats inferior to something else?

Ya I know what you mean

Disclaimer: I didn't read the big post. Bad Lightning.

Warriors don't instagib, Rangers don't instagib, Dervishes don't instagib, Paragons don't either. So what's up with the "do not have to dedicate their bar to insta-gib"...?

Quote:

When given the opportunity; yes. Usually I can create this opportunity by taking someone out of the fight with SSpeed-BMT.

Not smart. Prot.

murtagh deadmoon · Dec 19, 2007, 05:12 AM // 05:12

After reading up to about page 10 I got tired of the flaming and random ideas and decided to jump straight into posting some of my opinions (Not saying they're right).

Now, first of all, your all complaining about the whole insta-gib mega uber straight away spike kill, in relation to that, The whole of idea of a sin is to Shadow Step in (Because their armour is terrible and they can't run in), and then deal a large amount of damage to the target, thereby "Assassinating" them, then get out before someone owns their pathetically armoured ass.

So essentially all these proposed changes remove the actual idea of the class, Assassinating the target.

IMO they should add another aspect to Assassins where when they Shadow Step to a target they get like a blessing on them, Something like Reverie of the Kill, which buffs armour and IAS, and then when their target dies they port out, this lets them Assassinate by spiking and then get away, but otherwise if they haven't shadow stepped, which entails picking an assassination target, then they don't get this and their armour is terrible.

Just an idea, and don't worry, i'm braced and ready for flaming.

Shuuda · Dec 19, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by murtagh deadmoon

After reading up to about page 10 I got tired of the flaming and random ideas and decided to jump straight into posting some of my opinions (Not saying they're right).

Now, first of all, your all complaining about the whole insta-gib mega uber straight away spike kill, in relation to that, The whole of idea of a sin is to Shadow Step in (Because their armour is terrible and they can't run in), and then deal a large amount of damage to the target, thereby "Assassinating" them, then get out before someone owns their pathetically armoured ass.

Which is why many People think assassins need a major fix or removing from the game, the whole idea of Assassinating (Murdering) is broken in a game the revolves around fighting tacticly, hence assassins are broken. Which is why I said Assassins cannot be balanced as Assassins, because their fundamental concept is broken, therefore everything they do is at the core, broken. The only way Assassins can be balanced is if they stop being assassins, I'd recommend Assassins being like Ninjas (REAL ninjas, not naturtard ninjas, refer to that guy who made the long post in the "Real Assassin theory" topic to find out more on Real Ninjas.) But you get the point right, Assassins are broken because their job is broken in this game. I also recommend the idea of assassins becoming Melee Mesmers (Actual Shutdown, not them crappy builds that Whats-his-face-guy-that-loves-siphon-strength person posts) But this is because I'm a bit of a Mesmer fanboy.

ensoriki · Dec 19, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Disclaimer: I didn't read the big post. Bad Lightning.

Warriors don't instagib, Rangers don't instagib, Dervishes don't instagib, Paragons don't either. So what's up with the "do not have to dedicate their bar to insta-gib"...?

Not smart. Prot.

Shadow Prison, Burst of Agression, Black Lotus Strike, Twisting Fangs, Falling Spider, Blades of steel, Feigned Neutrality.
Typical BOA sin, Entire bar is dedicated to insta-gib except for Feigned.
Lets look at this.

SP's Sol purpose is to trigger your black line, shadow step and snare.
With a 20 second recharge, an assassin will not use it without his spike
Burst of Agression is purely for your spike.
Feigned, is just there for when your done with your spike, after so you disappear because you have no further use.

Wheres that real utility? if SP is down, the assassin is screwed, hes dependent on his insta-gib tactics

Now a ranger, lets say with glass arrows or something
Glass arrows, Distracting Shot,Savage Shot, Dual Shot, Natural Stride, Mending Touch. Troll Unguent.

The ranger has a little spike from this, that he can use to kill people.
However he also has 2 interrupts that allow him to help his kill, or when not spiking surve as utility, and has additiona; forms of utility Natural Stride, Mending Touch, Troll Unguent. Maybe put needling shot somewhere,Or they can replace Glass with Melandru's arrows Point is, ranger spike and assassin spike are different.
The ranger spike can go double Shot, Quickly followed by savage, for a spike.
It is also not reliant on anything to work, it can function with just its interrupts.

Now rangers can dedicate their bar, Much more to a spike then what I put.
But look at what they're loosing, distracting shot, savage shot... is it worth it to do so?

Avatar of Lyssa,Ermites Strike,Mystic Sweep, Wild Blow, Wearying Strike, Heart of Fury, Crippling Sweep.

This is much more dedicated to kill a target, The dervish looses his defense/utility.
Is it worth it? I don't see this bar run really (this I without a doubt believe is not the best example of full dedication....because a derv can do better I guess)

Now an assassin.
Disrupting Stab,Exhausting Assault,Moebius Strike, Twisting Fangs, Siphon Speed, Mending Touch, Dash or maybe Feigned.

Less dedication to one spike, more frequently available...
He has 2 interrupts, a way of constantly keeping his chain going, to an extent with moebius strike.
He has siphon for utility, mending touch.
A protective skill in Feigned or Dash.

This is just an example however.

Both the Ranger build, and this assassin build I posted.
Are not dedicated to their spike. (well the assassin is a bit more than the ranger)

And I wish you would read the long post =P
Took me time

....also I like that assassin Model for Sheena of ToS.....

Bobby2 · Dec 19, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Not smart. Prot.

I know. No plan is full proof. And again, good monks are scarce - works in my advantage too.

@ Shuuda: it's Siphon SPEED. What are you, dyslectic?

Shuuda · Dec 19, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I know. No plan is full proof. And again, good monks are scarce - works in my advantage too.

@ Shuuda: it's Siphon SPEED. What are you, dyslectic?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't ensoriki like Siphon Strength a lot? That was who I was referring too, so please shut the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up. If I wanted to take about shit, I'd go to the Plumbing forum, understand.

ensoriki · Dec 19, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Shuuda you need to calm down.
Swearing in the topic for no actual reason, doesn't accomplish anything.

Quote:

I also recommend the idea of assassins becoming Melee Mesmers (Actual Shutdown, not them crappy builds that Whats-his-face-guy-that-loves-siphon-strength person posts) But this is because I'm a bit of a Mesmer fanboy.

I was not aware that I love Siphon Strength, please tell me what else I love.
If you are a mesmer fanboy, then you should stick to your mesmer.

Bobby2 · Dec 19, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Shuuda, you are very amusing, I'll give you that

Referring to people by their screennames might help

EDIT: getting pwned in maturity by a 14-year old! LAWL!

murtagh deadmoon · Dec 20, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Which is why many People think assassins need a major fix or removing from the game, the whole idea of Assassinating (Murdering) is broken in a game the revolves around fighting tacticly, hence assassins are broken. Which is why I said Assassins cannot be balanced as Assassins, because their fundamental concept is broken, therefore everything they do is at the core, broken. The only way Assassins can be balanced is if they stop being assassins, I'd recommend Assassins being like Ninjas (REAL ninjas, not naturtard ninjas, refer to that guy who made the long post in the "Real Assassin theory" topic to find out more on Real Ninjas.) But you get the point right, Assassins are broken because their job is broken in this game. I also recommend the idea of assassins becoming Melee Mesmers (Actual Shutdown, not them crappy builds that Whats-his-face-guy-that-loves-siphon-strength person posts) But this is because I'm a bit of a Mesmer fanboy.

I agree that some parts are broken, but the general idea of the assassin can still be used tactically, hell porting in and taking down a monk then getting out is a great tactic. It's just that people will always whine about the instant kill spike, but that is what assassins are meant to do, if you don't like it kill them. I whine about mesmers shutting me down, but that's what they do ( With their damned empathy!...no i don't attack through it, which makes me useless sitting there.) But i really don't want assassins to become a mini-sucky caster class, A: because they would just suck more and B: Because i played assassin because it is melee, i can feel and see the damage i do, it's more fun that way. I understand your view but i think assassins can have a purpose in this game in the Assassin area.

Coloneh · Dec 20, 2007, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by murtagh deadmoon

I agree that some parts are broken, but the general idea of the assassin can still be used tactically, hell porting in and taking down a monk then getting out is a great tactic. It's just that people will always whine about the instant kill spike, but that is what assassins are meant to do, if you don't like it kill them. I whine about mesmers shutting me down, but that's what they do ( With their damned empathy!...no i don't attack through it, which makes me useless sitting there.) But i really don't want assassins to become a mini-sucky caster class, A: because they would just suck more and B: Because i played assassin because it is melee, i can feel and see the damage i do, it's more fun that way. I understand your view but i think assassins can have a purpose in this game in the Assassin area.

You dont get it, insti-gib is not a tactic, its instigib. a tactic to take down a monks is something like pressuring another target then switching and spiking down the monk, shutdown is a tactic. the other reason these insti-gib spikes are imba is that they are nearly impossible to counter. sure, empathy is a pain in the ass, but it can be countered, dont attack, remove hex... the idea of an assassin in the first place is imba in a team/skill/build-based game.

LightningHell · Dec 20, 2007, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

You dont get it, insti-gib is not a tactic, its instigib. a tactic to take down a monks is something like pressuring another target then switching and spiking down the monk, shutdown is a tactic. the other reason these insti-gib spikes are imba is that they are nearly impossible to counter. sure, empathy is a pain in the ass, but it can be countered, dont attack, remove hex... the idea of an assassin in the first place is imba in a team/skill/build-based game.

Or you could even attack through Empathy. You don't need to autoattack like a Warrior, do you?

Besides, who brings Empathy into PvP anyway...

Shuuda · Dec 20, 2007, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Shuuda you need to calm down.
Swearing in the topic for no actual reason, doesn't accomplish anything.

Sure it does, it signals my annoyance at blind Assassin fanboyism. I have freedom of speech, and I shouldn't be censored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

You dont get it, insti-gib is not a tactic, its instigib.

I admire you for summing it up so simply. Now all that is required is for someone to staple it to their foreheads, because these people won't just realise that what you said is fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Besides, who brings Empathy into PvP anyway...

You'd be suprised, and I'd be willing to bet some of the people on this thread would think to take that skill if asked to make a Mesmer anti melee build.

ensoriki · Dec 20, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Sure it does, it signals my annoyance at blind Assassin fanboyism. I have freedom of speech, and I shouldn't be censored.

You are free to say whatever you wish, at least to me, however your swearing does not cause your opinions to come out intellectually.
Blind Assassin fanboyism, if your speaking to me so be it, I'm quite sure over the past 6 months I have given many different approaches to changes you could give an assassin, even if I did not believe in those.
If you believe I, or bobby or Murtagh or anyone is a blind assassin fanboy, so be it, swearing at me or them does not make you look any wiser.
I never said you aren't allowed to say what you want.

Quote:

I admire you for summing it up so simply. Now all that is required is for someone to staple it to their foreheads, because these people won't just realise that what you said is fact.

Who are these people?
Murtagh I suppose and perhaps cytherea or whatever that users name was perhaps. I don't see many other people saying assassins must insta-gib, in this thread. Perhaps I am over looking there posts.

Quote:

You'd be surprised, and I'd be willing to bet some of the people on this thread would think to take that skill if asked to make a Mesmer anti melee build.

You'd be surprised, that whether or not someone brings Empathy, generally depends on where they are playing Player Vs Player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murtagh

It's just that people will always whine about the instant kill spike

I want you to think about what you just said.
If you cannot identify what is wrong with what you just said, I'll tell you
You said people whine about insta kill, as if they shouldn't.
Killing someone in 2-4 seconds from Full 600 health is insane and quite unfair.
Of course there are counters, the principle is still the same.
It's perfectly fine for classes to be able to spike.
However taking someone from 600 health to 0.
Is different from say a Air Ele spike, that takes someone maybe from 600 to 200-300.
Or a warrior spike that takes them from 600 to around 150-300 health,

Also I don't know when you got Guild Wars, however before Nightfall, the insta-gib you know and probably adore, did not exist as it did when Nightfall came.
If anything it could hardly be called so.

LightningHell · Dec 20, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Blind Assassin fanboyism, if your speaking to me so be it, I'm quite sure over the past 6 months I have given many different approaches to changes you could give an assassin, even if I did not believe in those.

Pretty sure he's not talking about you. I'm not him, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martagh

It's just that people will always whine about the instant kill spike

So if I can be killed by another person instantly because he used his toe to press keys in succession while having to play perfectly to survive, it's really balanced and nobody should complain.

O ok.

Bobby2 · Dec 20, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Just to be sure, gonna point out that I'm no fan of SP instagibness...

But.

Quote:

It's perfectly fine for classes to be able to spike.

Following this, the Assassin should be best at it. In this sense, ANet, mission accomplished.

Now onto fairness. A typical spike comprises of 3-4 skills with synergistic benefits/effects, quickly applied after each other - eg half a bar or less. An instagibSin has to devote nearly its entire bar to be effective.

'The Kill' psh getting out again, that takes REAL skill. And if you manage to catch a drifter... serves him right for not minding you.

Another balancing factor: general Sin hate these days

LightningHell · Dec 20, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

'The Kill' psh getting out again, that takes REAL skill. And if you manage to catch a drifter... serves him right for not minding you.

Doubt it. It's not really that hard to get out. People are overexaggerating.

ensoriki · Dec 20, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Doubt it. It's not really that hard to get out. People are overexaggerating.

Indeed its not hard to get out. or at least it isn't until the Cripshot ranger targets you >.<

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobby2

Now onto fairness. A typical spike comprises of 3-4 skills with synergistic benefits/effects, quickly applied after each other - eg half a bar or less. An instagibSin has to devote nearly its entire bar to be effective.

Exactly.
The fact that they are willing to sacrifice their entire bar!, is ridiculous!

This just shows 2 things
1) Instagib is the only thing an assassin can do thats worthwhile
2) anything they can do is inferior to instagib, and thus not worth taking.

Both 1 and 2 should not exist.
A-net dug its own grave for the assassin when they created Nightfall.
They caused a surge of imbalance that they could not fix.
Then because of this, we lost things like HoTo.

murtagh deadmoon · Dec 20, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

You dont get it, insti-gib is not a tactic, its instigib. a tactic to take down a monks is something like pressuring another target then switching and spiking down the monk, shutdown is a tactic. the other reason these insti-gib spikes are imba is that they are nearly impossible to counter. sure, empathy is a pain in the ass, but it can be countered, dont attack, remove hex... the idea of an assassin in the first place is imba in a team/skill/build-based game.

Killing the monk is a tactic that betters your teams chance of a win, you can't argue against that fact, killing the other teams monk is a tactic-period.

I understand your point of view that the idea of an ista-gib kill is broken, and perhaps the concept of an Assassin in a team game, but it still has it uses.

I agree with most of you tbh, there is a problem with having assassins in a team game because, the concept of assassination is one person killing one target, and in a game such as this it just doesn't really fit.

murtagh deadmoon · Dec 20, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

So if I can be killed by another person instantly because he used his toe to press keys in succession while having to play perfectly to survive, it's really balanced and nobody should complain.

O ok.

Firstly, you spelt my name wrong in the quote part

Anyways, i agree, it's stupid how a noob can pick up the game, go into PvP make a sin and then spike you down, complete bs, they need to add an element of skill to the spiking so it is difficult so if you get killed you know it took skill and not a random with a pvp sin.