Curse

ensoriki · Dec 02, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

meh. guess your right - ive not been on my sin lately lol

Just run the
Premade pvp build somewhere (add Disrupting dagger)

You'll see its rather lack luster.(the combo itself)
Add flourish or moebius and it still won't be good, just average.

I tried so many ways to make this combo really good.
Brutal Weapon = failed
Splinter weapon = Still not good
Nightmare weapon = Not worth it sorry.
Vital weapon =>.> doesnt help the combo but whatever
Enduring toxin = lol no
Locust fury = >.> Sure if you want to be auto attacking >.>
Way of the assassin = MUST crit on each hit to be worth its salt.
Hidden caltrops = Still not up to par.
Bulls strike = >.> Weak sauce
Shock = Lack of energy, TF is a energy drainer, Shock doesnt help.
BEguiling haze = Energy crys.
Seeping wound = ...no.
Flourish = Usable, e-management
Moebius = Usable, no e-management.
Disrupting dagger = God, builds usable not great though
Disrupting stab = God, above
Distracting Blow = Close to god, see above
Mark of instability = Wants to be like god, see above...just not as good as above
Conjures = see brutal weapon
Crippling dagger= Usable, for Jungle strike trigger

All in all, The pre-made build generally flops.
using Unsuspecting CD (or hidden caltrops) Jungle, TF still aint great.

Thats all im saying =P

LightningHell · Dec 03, 2007, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

Because people think of sins the way they think of warriors. Judging from this thread, they think that way in pvp, as well. They don't know how to handle enchants or do anti-melee, anything a three-month mesmer can do. They want to be able to do it all themselves, and if they can't, they want to make it so the sin can't do it's role. Most of those who know what a sin is "supposed" to be aren't crying, but a lot of warrior wannabes are.

If you don't see how they are designed badly, you know what a sin was made for. Another pointless thread about wanting a class to be what it's not, and Anet nerfing it because they cried.

Kindly note that most of the people complaining aren't playing Warrior.

And remembering the previous post I was going to say I was going to edit afterwards...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laserlight

The Assassin would be different. Not a damage threat, at least not to a team without DP, but a serious threat to a team's long-term viability, forcing resource expenditure much like the classic Cripshots did - by forcing enemy healers to play catch-up to way too gadzooking much disruption. Save that instead of spreading that disruption around, as did a Cripshot, the Assassin would be focusing it all on one guy, forcing clean-up efforts because that guy is both worthless and dangerously vulnerable to follow-up attacks until he's healthy again. Not only that, but this isn't even counting the resources an enemy expends trying to preemptively protect against this sort of tactic or resources expended trying to make the blasted Assassin go away so they don't have to wipe away sprees of badness every twelve seconds.

This model of the Assassin is almost certainly worse than the current model of the Assassin.

The current Assassin is a character that gets instant kills on single characters on recharge.

The Assassin you are suggesting is a character that disables single characters badly on recharge.

The only benefit of this over the original Assassin would be the ability to make the opponent expend a large amount of resources to cope with such an ability - but a Warrior can do that as a threat, and more.

Being able to spread less potent but quick-recharging, thus being able to constantly switch targets and respond to different stimuli, would be more favorable (imo), as this would actually allow the Assassin to fulfill multiple roles on demand, while retaining a damage potential.

I'd suggest a model of an Assassin that has quick (10s/less) recharging, basic (cripple, etc), shutdown and other miscellanous utility within that range, along with a midway-powerful combo (think 300-350 damage per 3-hit combo). Basically, an Assassin that is adept at creating potential gaps in the opponent, creating opportunities and plays, and being able to respond and capitalize on such opportunities and plays.

Of course, I'm reiterating what I'm saying before.

Ashe. · Dec 03, 2007, 04:47 AM // 04:47

There's nothing wrong with assassins, there are just so many bad ones running around that they are stereotyped as being bad by the Guildwars community.

Xue Fang · Dec 03, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashe.

There's nothing wrong with assassins, there are just so many bad ones running around that they are stereotyped as being bad by the Guildwars community.

Like those Assassins that run Restful Breeze @ 0 spec in AB...

LaserLight · Dec 03, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

The real problem I see with the model you’re suggesting, Lightning, is that it has absolutely nothing to do with Assassins (yes yes, I know, “hooray death-to-instagib!”, shaddap and lemme talk), and very little like something you’d call someone an Assassin for being able to do. Ye’re reinventing the class in a different direction altogether than what it stands as now, not a more generally acceptable tangent of the direction it’s already going. And that strikes me as a dangerous thing to do, given that most Assassin players...well, like Assassins.

If I’ve got this right, you want Assassins to be…well, not Assassins. The class, after revision, would basically be running around the edges of a battle, trying to avoid getting squashed because they’re basically unarmored, needling people frequently and generally making a nuisance of themselves with various disruption attacks and such that they currently don’t have. Thing is, Mesmers do that sort of work just fine without having to get themselves killed in the front line or having to squeal to a Monk when they get Blinded/Crippled/Weakened/Whatevered. They may not do it as rapidly as you’re suggesting an Assassin should, but they also tend to do it more reliably and with greater effect, because Mesmers as a class were concepted, from the very start, to do that job.

Let’s face it – an Assassin running around with a low-damage, low-disruption combo in a fight, even one enough interrupts/lockdowns/knockdowns to make the GvG elites happy that they’ve successfully mollified the Assassin masses before they go back to their Warriors, is going to be largely ignored, mostly because it’s very ignorable. Especially if the other plans to make Assassins vanish – namely the destruction of Shadow Steps – goes through. Don’t get me wrong, I’d greatly enjoy having more options available to me as an Assassin, but again let’s face the facts here – I’d prefer keeping my Assassin as a viable character if at all possible. Just about everyone else in Guild Wars, it seems, would like to see Assassins as viable characters as well – but if that turns out to be too hard, you’ll all be perfectly happy if Anet just nerfs them into total uselessness and/or deletes them from the game entirely, which makes arguing the case very, very hard. I'm trying to argue saving the class; you guys are trying to balance the game. The very thought that Steps need to go frightens me, because it's a heavy indication that at heart, the people I'm arguing with don't care what happens to this class, so long as it stops killing people. And that sucks a lot of ass.

Anyways. I don’t really buy that this sort of rapid light-striker you’re talking about is worth bringing into a team over a properly done Mesmer. Not if all it does are ignorable little minispikes and a small handful of conditions. Yeah, it may do them faster, but the sort of rampant hard disruption you’re talking about would be pretty difficult to retroactively introduce to the class, and even if it wasn’t Mesmers are better at it anyways. If I’ve got yer model right, and I admit I likely don’t, but if I do…ye’re basically talking about turning the entirety of the Assassin class into what amounts to a Cripshot Ranger, save with less ability to spread Conditions around.

Nobody really uses Cripshots anymore that I can see, though I haven’t had a chance to do a ton of observing recently. They’re very good at what they do, but what they do is largely taken up by Hydromancers these days. Hexes tend to be a bit harder to remove than Conditions, and Hydromancers can deal damage over an area while they’re at it. And, again, they aren’t vulnerable to antimelee counters or exposed to the dangers of the frontline to do their job.

Am I wrong?

LightningHell · Dec 03, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

The real problem I see with the model you’re suggesting, Lightning, is that it has absolutely nothing to do with Assassins (yes yes, I know, “hooray death-to-instagib!”, shaddap and lemme talk), and very little like something you’d call someone an Assassin for being able to do. Ye’re reinventing the class in a different direction altogether than what it stands as now, not a more generally acceptable tangent of the direction it’s already going. And that strikes me as a dangerous thing to do, given that most Assassin players...well, like Assassins.

I'd say you're right for this part. The problem with my model would be the lack of relation to actual assassinations, although you could easily fit that in. One could easily take the disruption, then capitalizing on such as "assassination".

Quote:

If I’ve got this right, you want Assassins to be…well, not Assassins. The class, after revision, would basically be running around the edges of a battle, trying to avoid getting squashed because they’re basically unarmored, needling people frequently and generally making a nuisance of themselves with various disruption attacks and such that they currently don’t have. Thing is, Mesmers do that sort of work just fine without having to get themselves killed in the front line or having to squeal to a Monk when they get Blinded/Crippled/Weakened/Whatevered. They may not do it as rapidly as you’re suggesting an Assassin should, but they also tend to do it more reliably and with greater effect, because Mesmers as a class were concepted, from the very start, to do that job.

I wouldn't mind Assassin defensive skills to be buffed, and I think

Quote:

Let’s face it – an Assassin running around with a low-damage, low-disruption combo in a fight, even one enough interrupts/lockdowns/knockdowns to make the GvG elites happy that they’ve successfully mollified the Assassin masses before they go back to their Warriors, is going to be largely ignored, mostly because it’s very ignorable. Especially if the other plans to make Assassins vanish – namely the destruction of Shadow Steps – goes through.

I quoted this bit so that I could respond to this first.

Please be aware that such interrupts/lockdowns/knockdowns are extremely, extremely powerful. I wouldn't hesitate trying to take an utilitarian Assassin into a GvG game, as it'd be not unlike taking a character mes effects (when I say mes effects, I mean anything that does not contribute directly to team survival or damage, but instead creates possibilities, etc) that can actually be a serious damage threat. If they're made by a sufficiently bright person, they could ensure that they don't overlap with Rangers and Mesmer effects. I think you're underestimating the power of disruption in PvP, although in PvE it's a nonexistent issue because you're better off justkilling them anyway except in rare cases.

So in terms of usability, the Assassin would actually be more viable and attractive to players, as it packs quite a punch if needed, and has other traits that make it worth its slot.

And I don't think Shadow Stepping needs to go - it may be an undesirable mechanic, but I think having it go after two years is a bit too big of a shift of paradigm. Besides, it's kinda what makes them different from other melee classes, and if the utilitarian Assassin changes do go through you might even see Steps getting buffed a bit for survivability. It wouldn't be so bad now that combos no longer instagib.

Quote:

Don’t get me wrong, I’d greatly enjoy having more options available to me as an Assassin, but again let’s face the facts here – I’d prefer keeping my Assassin as a viable character if at all possible. Just about everyone else in Guild Wars, it seems, would like to see Assassins as viable characters as well – but if that turns out to be too hard, you’ll all be perfectly happy if Anet just nerfs them into total uselessness and/or deletes them from the game entirely, which makes arguing the case very, very hard. I'm trying to argue saving the class; you guys are trying to balance the game. The very thought that Steps need to go frightens me, because it's a heavy indication that at heart, the people I'm arguing with don't care what happens to this class, so long as it stops killing people. And that sucks a lot of ass.

See above.

Quote:

Anyways. I don’t really buy that this sort of rapid light-striker you’re talking about is worth bringing into a team over a properly done Mesmer. Not if all it does are ignorable little minispikes and a small handful of conditions. Yeah, it may do them faster, but the sort of rampant hard disruption you’re talking about would be pretty difficult to retroactively introduce to the class, and even if it wasn’t Mesmers are better at it anyways. If I’ve got yer model right, and I admit I likely don’t, but if I do…ye’re basically talking about turning the entirety of the Assassin class into what amounts to a Cripshot Ranger, save with less ability to spread Conditions around.

A Cripshot that has KDs and is half range, as well as better support/main spikes?

Although, I agree that it's very hard to retroactively introduce them.

Quote:

Nobody really uses Cripshots anymore that I can see, though I haven’t had a chance to do a ton of observing recently. They’re very good at what they do, but what they do is largely taken up by Hydromancers these days. Hexes tend to be a bit harder to remove than Conditions, and Hydromancers can deal damage over an area while they’re at it. And, again, they aren’t vulnerable to antimelee counters or exposed to the dangers of the frontline to do their job.

I don't think, at any point of time after the template Ranger bar was made, was a time where it was totally and completely dropped. After Cripshot, people fit Broadhead Arrow on the bars, Burning Arrow, etc. And now we're still back to Cripshot. And water eles were not taken for their damage in the stand, no. Deep Freeze was only there for the huge AoE of 10-second-snaring.

Anyways.

Any Ranger's main objective is to 1) spread poison, and 2) interrupt key skills as to create windows of opportunities and/or reduce enemy team efficiency. The Cripshot can additionally cripple people with a high level of efficiency. All Ranger bars also have a high level of self sufficiency, which allows for an extremely good split character.

A Mesmer's current main objective is to disable key skills, enchant strips, assist spikes, etc.

You could have the Assassin get mini one-sided Blackouts that are at touch range, Clumsiness effects with a KD, quick recharging armor debuffs. Possibilities are kinda endless, and you could get relatively little overlap.

And I'm also thinking you're making the mid-frontline threat to be too large. I'm not really asking for the Assassin to consistently overextend and stay in the frontline like a Warrior.

Quote:

Am I wrong?

Kinda, yes. But you've got the general gist, albeit a very underpowered version.

On retrospect, it's kinda pointless to ask for changes on the Assassins, as it's already what, a year and a half or so? since PvPers started complaining about game balance in relation to Assassins. It's very unlikely that ANet will change the Assassin.

ensoriki · Dec 03, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Lol. Nothing's going to make L-O-D viable when its damage is so low, not only that the damage is so inconsistent with its high recharges, out of the 3 melee classes assassins have the highest recharges, Using L-O-D your not going to get a kill and with those high recharges your still down, Might as well go O-D-O-D and loose some utility, Down time is pretty damn much the same, but your going to kill.

Shadow steps aren't a problem.
Shadow steps cannot kill, they just serve as utility. Considering no shadow step is in a primary attribute, any one has access to them and you do not need a high point distribution to use them. Im not just trying to say "Oh there balanced cus anyone can use em" . Shadow Steps are utility, take ride the lightning and take its damage away and make it deal blind, you've got a shadow step. No shadow step does damage >.> Thats what seperates the lightning riders >.> from the assassins =P. Hell its possible to do a Ride the Lightning sin considering most people who bitch about shadow stepping say this
"leave Ride the lightning alone...uh..cus it has a cool name" Do you not see the BS there?

Hopefully izzy can scrap up another large January (or was it feb) Skill balance like he did at the beginning of this year. Remember that when we were to test these skills and put feedback?

Many changes the assassin can need can happen now.
3 skills changed every 2 weeks or so can get us somewhere.
Changing Shadow steps isn't going to resolve in anything but gimping a class.

Ashe. · Dec 03, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Fang

Like those Assassins that run Restful Breeze @ 0 spec in AB...

Is that why I carried us to victory all those times?

crossound · Dec 03, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Almost on any class you have ways to stop being instagib. Maybe most people just lack quick reflexes. Almost all Instagib builds that existed have been nerfed pretty bad. Look in random arenas for one before the big nerf you saw assassins everywhere now you see a lot less.

If anything its mostly hammer warriors now which is what anet wants. Now everyone is complaining about linebackers in ra lol?

If you honestly ask me maybe they should increase all caster classes AL to 65 for a test to see if people quit complaining.

Tyla · Dec 03, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashe.

There's nothing wrong with assassins, there are just so many bad ones running around that they are stereotyped as being bad by the Guildwars community.

no....its because alot of the builds require the knowledge of 12345678 to gain a spike.
very rare i see a non instagib ran tbh...

fireflyry · Dec 03, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

There are bad players in every class.

2 minutes in RA or AB will teach you that.

ensoriki · Dec 03, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

no....its because alot of the builds require the knowledge of 12345678 to gain a spike. very rare i see a non instagib ran tbh...

Why the hell would you see a non-instagib build? Generally any other build an assassin uses sucks...generally (huggles skill)
Also its not even true that a lot of the sin builds are instagib.
Its only a couple, any other instagib is pretty much just a variation of that 1 insta combo.
So really you have caster sin
and insta gib sin with a hex
instagib without a hex (uncommon)
So 3 insta gib builds. if you look around you just see variants of some skills, but the core is the exact same.
Remember before BLS change to lead?
You'd see over 9000 hex builds all claiming to be different...but what was the combo?
BLS TF BSS BOS or something similar like Horns replacing TF or BoS
or Tf replaced with horns and impale added >.>
The real things that actually gave those builds claiming to be "unique" their originality was the damn hex surrounding the build >.>
How can you say theres a lot of Instagib sin builds when really theres 3.
And they really only existed once nightfall came (Shows you wtf damage nightfall did)
_________

Anyways My next statement short and sweet.
L-O-D will forever suck until recharge and damage (or conditional effects) are changed.

Next point.
Lead attacks SHOULD have a clause for following a dual attack. This is not hard to implement and could take izzy about 2 weeks to think about and implement, perhaps even less time!
Its fine if off-hands do not require leads, but they should all be much weaker when they don't. For current lead skippers, they will have to get small tweaks to be able to fit in the new implimentation. GPS = damage nerf but now causes aoe burning if it follows a Lead IMO (or just burning =P)
More skills should be 1/2 second or 1/4 (well there is no 1/4 right now) activation.
Perfect example is disrupting stab, had this been 1/2 or 1/4 using it would be much easier, the same should follow with the warrior skill distracting blow, just to be fair.

Final point, recharges.
From what I can see using skills such as moebius/Flourish and Assassin's promise to see how assassins benefit from lower recharge skills.

Lead attack recharges should vary from 1-5 recharge at most IMO, jagged strike being the only 1 recharge skill.

Off-hands recharges should vary from 3-6 recharge
And Duals being 2-12 or so DB being the only 2 second dual attack.

Now skills I think should be tweaked with those ideas in mind
[card]Golden Phoenix Strike[/card] Off-Hand Attack. If you are not under the effects of an Enchantment, this skill misses. If it hits, Golden Phoenix Strike deals +5...19...26 damage. If this follows a lead attack you inflict burning (perhaps to all adjacent foes) for 1....3...4 seconds. Recharge 6.
[card]Desperate strike[/card]Lead Attack. If you have less than 50...74...80% Health, you deal +15...51...60 damage.If this follows a dual attack you gain 5...30....40 health..
1/2c 5 recharge
[card]Twisting Fangs[/card]Dual Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, Twisting Fangs strikes for +10...18...20 damage and struck foe suffers from Bleeding and Deep Wound for 5...17...20 seconds.
10 recharge I guess.
[card]Unsuspecting Strike[/card]Lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +19...30...33 damage. If your target was above 90% Health you deal an additional 15...63...75 damage. If this follows a dual attack you gain +3....6...11 energy
[card]Black Lotus Strike[/card] Rename Black Lotus Blossom
Lead Attack. If it hits, Black Lotus Strike strikes for +5...17...25 damage. If target foe is suffering from a Hex, you gain 2...9...12 Energy. If this follows a dual attack you deal 6...30...35 damage to all adjacent foes (not target foe)
5 energy 6 recharge
[card]Golden Lotus strike[/card] Rename Golden Lotus Blossom
Lead Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5...17...20 damage. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment, you gain 5...11...12 Energy. If this follows a dual attack you and all adjacent allys gain 15...40....47 health
1/2 cast 5 energy 6 recharge
[card]Disrupting stab[/card] Lead Attack. If this attack hits, it interrupts target foe's action. If that action was a Spell, it is disabled for 3...9...10 seconds. If this follows a dual attack deal 15....30...40 (not + damage) if foe is using a skill.
1/2 cast 6 recharge

Stuff like these would help L-O-D in the long run.
Bls got a damage and energy gain nerf, Lower recharge and energy cost and aoe damage (really only helps pve or at VoD)
GlS is similar but aoe health gain and less damage 1/2 cast helps it however.
Unsuspecting is now a much better skill to take, another option would to make it crit if it followed a dual (still getting energy back and gives more damage)
Disrupting stab is as good as disrupting dagger, Trade off? Lack of range,affected by block and blind and other anti- melee, damage is not elemental so not as effective against warriors. TF 5 less recharge makes a difference, the assassin can switch targets with more ease this way. Desperate strike is okay now (still not that great) It can now heal all you need to do is use it after a dual 1/2c and 5 recharge make it stand out even more.
Gps damage nerf = Good, now O-D-O-D isn't as strong (few lead skippers to begin with since BlS change) Now L-O-D got stronger.

If you see a problem with this moriz, or anyone tell me =P Going through ideas.

Sniffy · Dec 05, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

If I’ve got this right, you want Assassins to be…well, not Assassins. The class, after revision, would basically be running around the edges of a battle, trying to avoid getting squashed because they’re basically unarmored, needling people frequently and generally making a nuisance of themselves with various disruption attacks and such that they currently don’t have. Thing is, Mesmers do that sort of work just fine without having to get themselves killed in the front line or having to squeal to a Monk when they get Blinded/Crippled/Weakened/Whatevered. They may not do it as rapidly as you’re suggesting an Assassin should, but they also tend to do it more reliably and with greater effect, because Mesmers as a class were concepted, from the very start, to do that job.

Let’s face it – an Assassin running around with a low-damage, low-disruption combo in a fight, even one enough interrupts/lockdowns/knockdowns to make the GvG elites happy that they’ve successfully mollified the Assassin masses before they go back to their Warriors, is going to be largely ignored, mostly because it’s very ignorable. Especially if the other plans to make Assassins vanish – namely the destruction of Shadow Steps – goes through. Don’t get me wrong, I’d greatly enjoy having more options available to me as an Assassin, but again let’s face the facts here – I’d prefer keeping my Assassin as a viable character if at all possible. Just about everyone else in Guild Wars, it seems, would like to see Assassins as viable characters as well – but if that turns out to be too hard, you’ll all be perfectly happy if Anet just nerfs them into total uselessness and/or deletes them from the game entirely, which makes arguing the case very, very hard. I'm trying to argue saving the class; you guys are trying to balance the game. The very thought that Steps need to go frightens me, because it's a heavy indication that at heart, the people I'm arguing with don't care what happens to this class, so long as it stops killing people. And that sucks a lot of ass.

Anyways. I don’t really buy that this sort of rapid light-striker you’re talking about is worth bringing into a team over a properly done Mesmer. Not if all it does are ignorable little minispikes and a small handful of conditions. Yeah, it may do them faster, but the sort of rampant hard disruption you’re talking about would be pretty difficult to retroactively introduce to the class, and even if it wasn’t Mesmers are better at it anyways. If I’ve got yer model right, and I admit I likely don’t, but if I do…ye’re basically talking about turning the entirety of the Assassin class into what amounts to a Cripshot Ranger, save with less ability to spread Conditions around.

I wouldn't think the mini-spikes should by any means ignorable. I'm guessing it would be something like taking a 60AL (500 health average?) down 75% and an
80 AL 50%. All the assassins would have to do then is coordinate with each other a little to become a very real threat.
Sins would never be able to hang out in the frontline (unless they'd get some kind of armor buff skill for pvp) but a decent buff to Shadow Arts+Shadow Step buff/nerf would mean penetration from midline to midline and (hopefully) back again.
Shadow steps could be moved to a shorter recharge, one more in line with the minispikes. A coordinated pair of assassins could be jumping around enemy lines fairly often keeping opposing monks busy not letting anyone die. Though obviously, I'm not proposing anything like SP being moved to an 8-10 recharge. But Dark Prison with a little modification could potentially work without being op.
The disruption would have to take a different line from mesmer. Just tossing out random ideas here:
Mantis Touch: Atribute Deadly arts? 5e 12r 1/4 cast: Target foe is interrupted, dazed, blinded, and crippled for 1-3 seconds.
Deadly Paradox: Critical Strikes 5e 10r: for 4-12 seconds conditions you apply last 50% longer, but conditions applied on you last 50% longer.
To keep sins viable PvE, so long as they have DB Moebius spam that goes a long way toward keeping them viable.
Thoughts? Or am I off the mark again?

Keep sins viable ftw.

ensoriki · Dec 05, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Are you talking to Moriz Or Lightninghell?
Also I now own this thread >.>

Anyways alot of people complain about shadow steps, because the assassin just appears behind them.

This is still not a problem except for Dark Prison/Shadow Prison

Where even if you move as soon as you see that puff of smoke, your snared anyways.

LightningHell · Dec 05, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

In the case that he's talking to me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

I wouldn't think the mini-spikes should by any means ignorable. I'm guessing it would be something like taking a 60AL (500 health average?) down 75% and an
80 AL 50%. All the assassins would have to do then is coordinate with each other a little to become a very real threat.
Sins would never be able to hang out in the frontline (unless they'd get some kind of armor buff skill for pvp) but a decent buff to Shadow Arts+Shadow Step buff/nerf would mean penetration from midline to midline and (hopefully) back again.
Shadow steps could be moved to a shorter recharge, one more in line with the minispikes. A coordinated pair of assassins could be jumping around enemy lines fairly often keeping opposing monks busy not letting anyone die. Though obviously, I'm not proposing anything like SP being moved to an 8-10 recharge. But Dark Prison with a little modification could potentially work without being op.
The disruption would have to take a different line from mesmer. Just tossing out random ideas here:
Mantis Touch: Atribute Deadly arts? 5e 12r 1/4 cast: Target foe is interrupted, dazed, blinded, and crippled for 1-3 seconds.
Deadly Paradox: Critical Strikes 5e 10r: for 4-12 seconds conditions you apply last 50% longer, but conditions applied on you last 50% longer.
To keep sins viable PvE, so long as they have DB Moebius spam that goes a long way toward keeping them viable.
Thoughts? Or am I off the mark again?

You've got the idea. Although the minispikes would take about 66% of the health, since everybody runs full health now.

ensoriki · Dec 05, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

In the case that he's talking to me...

You've got the idea. Although the minispikes would take about 66% of the health, since everybody runs full health now.

What I don't get the idea T_T

Mini spikes of 33% health would suck considering the way the game is currently played.
If your spiking and you dont take more then 50% hp,If your only dealing 33% damage and the target is not under Prot Spirit, your more pressure to spike IMO.
assassins going from 45%-60% small spikes is more reasonable.
2 uses of a combo should kill and 1 use if you prepare and are smart about it (like Disrupting Dagger the foe..etc)

Really if sin's Leads were like 1-5 recharge the off hands were 3-6 and the duals were 4-10 I'd be a happy camper.

Temple strike being like the only off hand with a 15 second recharge (not 20 =P)

Having Good use of shadow steps seems good to me but I wish some shadow steps had a clause like this

Shadow Step to target foe
something like 15-20 second recharges
If target foe was in the area (when you cast this) this skill recharges 5 seconds quicker. Then all there effects (like gain hp if they have more hp then you, or snare, whatever)

That way if you use a shadow step in half-range, you get to use it more
When someone is in half-range its not hard to see them and start kiting before hand.

So that a 15 recharge shadow step becomes 10 if you use it from half-range

And defensive shadow steps be the opposite, you get better use from full-range

Tyla · Dec 06, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Why the hell would you see a non-instagib build? Generally any other build an assassin uses sucks...generally (huggles skill)
Also its not even true that a lot of the sin builds are instagib.
Its only a couple, any other instagib is pretty much just a variation of that 1 insta combo.
So really you have caster sin
and insta gib sin with a hex
instagib without a hex (uncommon)
So 3 insta gib builds. if you look around you just see variants of some skills, but the core is the exact same.
Remember before BLS change to lead?
You'd see over 9000 hex builds all claiming to be different...but what was the combo?
BLS TF BSS BOS or something similar like Horns replacing TF or BoS
or Tf replaced with horns and impale added >.>
The real things that actually gave those builds claiming to be "unique" their originality was the damn hex surrounding the build >.>
How can you say theres a lot of Instagib sin builds when really theres 3.
And they really only existed once nightfall came (Shows you wtf damage nightfall did)
.

because you can change some skills in them

seen a few non-instagibs - from the complete noob sins (moebius and shattering assault took off that list ofc)

ensoriki · Dec 06, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

because you can change some skills in them

seen a few non-instagibs - from the complete noob sins (moebius and shattering assault took off that list ofc)

Changing 1/2 Skills that do not matter, doesn't make it a unique or original build really >.>

Anyone Utilizing Disrupting Dagger, or Siphon strength...cant be noob in my books....unless the planets are aligned or something.
or if im the one using the build >.> I make everything noob

LightningHell · Dec 06, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

What I don't get the idea T_T

Mini spikes of 33% health would suck considering the way the game is currently played.
If your spiking and you dont take more then 50% hp,If your only dealing 33% damage and the target is not under Prot Spirit, your more pressure to spike IMO.
assassins going from 45%-60% small spikes is more reasonable.

I think you misunderstand. 400 damage is about 66% with a meta with 600 health characters.

Of course, in a meta with old sup rune characters, the 'sin would be imba like that.

ensoriki · Dec 06, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I think you misunderstand. 400 damage is about 66% with a meta with 600 health characters.

Of course, in a meta with old sup rune characters, the 'sin would be imba like that.

But it isn't the old and thus 45-66% is good.
If you can take that much off, your still a strong Spike character

And if your recharges are like 3-6 seconds your good (like how the dervish had/has a bunch of 4 second attacks)