Curse

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

why the hell would critical strikes give 1% ims.

That would be shadow arts.

Also why the hell make dash suck?

Also.... you couldn't use temple strike in RA well?

>.> pfft.

Ok Dash can stay as 50% (62% IMS....) It's more logical for balance sake to put the IMS boost in CS, only primary attritubes get effects like that (all non primary get no interent effect)

On the subject on SoJ sin, interrupting them is possible, but unless you hit them with Power leak or Distracting shot, it's near pointless. The best three options woulbe be:

1)Stand next to him as a ranger and D shot his asp, removing this poison for a while. Standing next to him gives the best chance to interrupt.

2) Hit him with P leak, kill his energy.

3) Diverson on asp or dancing daggers.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Interrupt or not... its about 534 damage in 5 seconds.

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

yes, but good players ain't just gonna let you do that are they, they'll distrupt you, and prot themselves.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Like I said.

Deadly paradox makes disrupting a pain in the ass.

its not your measly 1 second cast time anymore >.>

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Like I said.

Deadly paradox makes disrupting a pain in the ass.

its not your measly 1 second cast time anymore >.>

True, and it does make dancing daggers near impossible to stop via interrupting (although I have done so on my mesmer) Asp is the best skill to target if your going to prevent it via disrupting.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

True, and it does make dancing daggers near impossible to stop via interrupting (although I have done so on my mesmer) Asp is the best skill to target if your going to prevent it via disrupting.

You know what mind games are Shuuda?

Sometimes I cast DD twice in a row before Asping.

Twice I've seen people hit Distracting shot predicting that I would asp and instead Missing it because I used DD.

Then they die. Then I got bored of Signet sins >.>

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

You know what mind games are Shuuda?

Sometimes I cast DD twice in a row before Asping.

Twice I've seen people hit Distracting shot predicting that I would asp and instead Missing it because I used DD.

Then they die. Then I got bored of Signet sins >.>

Most Rangers (good ones) Use either Savage or Magebane alongside D shot. So one mistake can be made.

One thing that helps interrupting is enlarging the enemy casting bar.

Oh, and I am speaking on the assumption that the person disrupting is a moderately good player.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

I like disrupting with small enemy casting bars >.>
Makes me feel pro.

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

I like disrupting with small enemy casting bars >.>
Makes me feel pro.

"Luke, use the force, let go of your feeling." meaning, interrupting them without the enemy casting bar will make you uber pro, right?

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

"Luke, use the force, let go of your feeling." meaning, interrupting them without the enemy casting bar will make you uber pro, right?

No doubt about it.

Anyways.

IMO sin dagger chains all need this clause added.

If this follows a dual attack......

This makes leads better the second time around.

Off hands should all be if it hits.
Then some clause if it follows a lead.

That or if they stay as they are now....buffs please.

GPS needs damage reduction by a small bit.
And inflict burning if it follows a lead. Thus evening out the damage nerf.

Black spider strike should have 10 energy again, poison duration decreased.
If this attack criticals you apply weakness.
If this follows a lead attack...

Make criticals have more use and Lead attacks give more bonuses.

This makes the Idea of L-O-D better because
1) bar compression
2) L-O-D spells LOD, = Light of Deliverance = Delivering awesome sauce = Lol shutup ensoriki
3) More room for utility!! WOO
...to bad the utility sucks...booo.

Lead attacks should probably all be 1/4 cast time or something.

We could make shadow prison.

Target Foe is hexed with shadow prison and slowed down by 33% for 3....13..15 seconds. Shadow step to a random area Nearby target foe.

The sin won't shadow step straight to the foe now.
They will warp near by, still giving them better movement than the warrior.
As a simple execution of dash will get them there.

Bobby2 · Nov 30, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

We could make shadow prison.

Target Foe is hexed with shadow prison and slowed down by 33% for 3....13..15 seconds. Shadow step to a random area Nearby target foe.

The sin won't shadow step straight to the foe now.
They will warp near by, still giving them better movement than the warrior.
As a simple execution of dash will get them there.

You could just Shadow Walk-Siphon Speed, you know. If Dash is necessary to support your SP suggestion (and it is) I'd run this combo instead of your now-crap Elite. 'random area Nearby target foe' --- I lawld

ensoriki · Nov 30, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

You could just Shadow Walk-Siphon Speed, you know. If Dash is necessary to support your SP suggestion (and it is) I'd run this combo instead of your now-crap Elite. 'random area Nearby target foe' --- I lawld

my point exactly.

Bobby2 · Nov 30, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Why would you want to -completely- ruin it?

ensoriki · Nov 30, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Why would you want to -completely- ruin it?

Heh its not completely ruined.

Its just not as good.

Moving from Caster range to Nearby range in 1/4 of a second = Not bad.
Snaring them and Nearby to them = not bad.

Duration would get buffed Just means monks have more time to prepare.

Bobby2 · Nov 30, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

RANDOM area. 'Nuff said.

ensoriki · Nov 30, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

well actually I guess it should be the nearby area Behind the target >.> since we always shadow step behind losers.

then we can lower Sp to 15 recharge lulz.

LaserLight · Nov 30, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Alright...leaving aside my issues with damage capability/style for now, and I do have them...I want to talk about this whole demolishing of all Shadow Step skills idea thing.

First of all, it's been mentioned in this thread how adept the top players in the game are at keeping track of a dizzying array of variables in their heads, with a glance. I find it unfathomable that such players wouldn't know, pretty much exactly, what aggro range from a green dot is even without the greyed area in your compass. Hell I've nearly got that and I freely admit to not being such an uber-1337 player as everyone in this thread telling me to shut up and delete my Assassin for a Warrior.

Therefore, I also find it unfathomable that the elite players who're doing most of the shouting don't know when an Assassin has gotten to Step range of any target they're in range of. Which allows them to stack their preprotting on whatever target the sin is most likely going for, discourage the spike, and save the day. Which is the reason I assume nobody uses Assassins in high-level PvP these days - it's as predictable for good people as normal IMS stances are for bad ones. The only advantage a Step skill gives is the ability to just bypass the frontline altogether - which is vital to being a good Assassin. People who don't think it's a big deal to have to charge through the frontline to get to the nice squishies are typically Warrior players, and nobody who has 140AL (100 base, 16 shield, 24 WY. 140.) on a regular basis is allowed to say squat to me about having to brush by other people to hit the real targets. No, I'm not saying it doesn't require skill - ye have to catch the madly kiting caster, which is never easy. Hell, I Dark Prison/Shroud of Silence and it still takes work to catch the damned creeps. What I'm saying is that anyone who can basically freely ignore enemy attempts to kill him really doesn't understand the words "70AL melee." 70AL melee means you either get by the enemy's frontline elements via Shadow Step or you get drilled in the face before you even get to half-range of the target. No, it doesn't take any real skill to Shadow Step to the target. it takes skill to know when and some skill to execute the kill. And then it can often take a truckload of skill to NOT DIE when the enemy frontline wheels and moves to hammer you.

Having played an Assassin without Steps in PvP, using just IMS stances and conventional snares - and before you yell, I've only played a Shadow Prisoner once, to say I had. I hate them with a ridiculous passion myself and am not arguing for their retention - I can safely say that IMS stances don't get the job done. They are not half as effective as a Step, and they do not allow you to bypass enemy defenders and strike critical targets, as the actual purpose of the Assassin is. You say that Assassins are supposed to be fast-moving killers. Not true. The killer part certainly is, but "fast-moving" is a flagger's job. And Assassins, as a general rule, aren't great flaggers. No, our job is simply to strike vulnerable targets. Warriors want to do that, but their first job is usually to hold the line and prevent your own casters from being slapped around. Dervishes are more offensive, with most of them designed to rampage through the line and blast things, forcing breaches that your own forces can take advantage of and sowing discord. At least, the Av of Mel ones are, and I haven't seen more than one in ten who aren't AoM. But again, they're trying to attrite rather than kill, wear down resources until the other side simply breaks. Assassins are the only class in this game who are able to, with any efficiency, bring down targets before that breaking point is reached, and as much as the balance people hate that, I think such a capability should always be here.

And if you take away our ability to hurt things at the same time that you get rid of our Steps, no amount of counterbuffing in the world will put Assassins on GvG teams over Mesmers. Because let’s face it, a ‘mildly’ damaging spike with a short recharge is pointless, because Assassins do not survive in the front of a battle. I pride myself on being able to get away from a bad fight more successfully than four of five other Assassins I’ve run across - and with nothing but Dash and good kiting to boot, no room for a defensive Step - and I still don’t dare strike a fighting target, or a well-escorted one. If I tried to stick around and wait for a second run-through of my chain I’d be a body on the floor before I was halfway through against anyone with two neurons to rub together, and everyone here knows it.

And before I ramble further, I’ll shut up and let everyone else tell me how horrible a noob I am. Again.

MercenaryK · Nov 30, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Word

*Dance Magic Dance Jump Magic Jump*

LightningHell · Nov 30, 2007, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Don't kill me if any of this is inaccurate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

At this point I would say an enthusiastic "Yes."

The problem with Assassins, is if they get the kill, people go "Wow! Sins are so overpowered! They take no skill to play! It's just 12345 or however long their chain is.
If they don't get the kill, they are, usually, stuck in a lousy position , with bad armor, running and screaming. Ok, not really. But if they don't get the kill, at this point, they are a largely useless (IE underpowered) class.

This is a point that has been realized by pretty much the whole of the PvP community - Assassins are either underpowered, or gimmicky-overpowered. There is no grey area; there is no in-between where they are balanced, as the mechanic of skills that guarantee instagib does not allow such.

Quote:

As long as Assassins can kill from full health in one spike, people who can't figure out how to stop it will whine about it, yet you can't just take away sin spiking ability, give them nothing else and say "Ok, they're balanced now."

It's not just "people who can't figure out how to stop it". It's that other classes have to do so much more to do such a thing.

And that it simply takes too little skill to do it.

Quote:

On another note,
I guess I don't really understand the 123456 sins have no skill argument. Sure, if you want to, you can play your sin that way. That makes you a bad sin. Either that, or you are exceptionally lucky.
In order for me to win, I always have to think about who to hit, when, and with what. When I started playing sin, I thought I could mash buttons and get kills. While you often can on a heavily pressured character, it usually takes more thought, timing, and skill than that.

I'll focus on that, as you seem to think the argument is foiled by the fact that Assassins need such skills.

The fact of the matter is, all classes need such gameplay skills. The Assassin of course requires a basic level of gaming knowledge to play properly.

However, while other professions have other specific skills they need to utilize, the Assassin requires no other skill than the basics.

Quote:

If you still insist on the 12345 argument, then why are Warriors harder to play?
Wars must build up adrenaline.
Yeah? Gee, pressing c space is so much harder than 12345.
Then warriors (spike wars) do their chain. Maybe wars take more skill because they arrange their chain 34251. Beats me.
Pressure wars just use their pressure.
Look! Running foe! Wars do bull strike, sins do siphon speed. Or whatever variations.

Warriors need to pressure; staying on the frontline, knowing when to overextend, when to retreat, when to lineback, etc, is pretty advanced methinks.

Spike warriors don't have an instagib combo - they rely on their team to achieve kills.

At least it's more than picking an unprotted target then pressing 123456.

Quote:

This is not to bash warriors. Or sins. I think both classes require more skill to play than mashing buttons. But there is a limited amount of skill you can put into a game like this with current technology limits. I think they have, overall, despite our complaints, they have done an excellent job. Looking at other games, there are so many things about GW we tend to take for granted.

Yes, we take a lot of things in GW for granted. That's mainly because it's pretty much the only RPG game with a good PvP model; people complain a lot about balance due to players liking better balance. I agree that GW is (was, still probably is) an excellent game; the complaining community is just business as usual.

Obviously you don't actually roll your head on the keyboard and score kills. But you could probably play an Assassin with a single hand.

Quote:

I'm guessing nothing, or not much will be done about sins in Guild Wars.
Hopefully though, we can present the Assassin argument, why they're good, fun, useful, necessary to game balance to keep casters from running rampant, etc to get them the placement they deserve in GW 2.

Necessary to game balance to keep casters from running rampant...? I don't get you. Do you mean that Assassins keep casters from running rampant due to their superior damage?

If so, look at a Warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

So simple, yet so true.

Amazing people can't seem to get their head around this obvious class mechanic and instead repeat the mantra of 12345 Sin's being idiots or noobs when the class is designed for skills to be used in a consecutive manner.

Duh.

Blame the game design, not the player using it to it's highest potential in terms of DPS or effectiveness in game.

Which is what we're doing, methinks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Alright...leaving aside my issues with damage capability/style for now, and I do have them...I want to talk about this whole demolishing of all Shadow Step skills idea thing.

First of all, it's been mentioned in this thread how adept the top players in the game are at keeping track of a dizzying array of variables in their heads, with a glance. I find it unfathomable that such players wouldn't know, pretty much exactly, what aggro range from a green dot is even without the greyed area in your compass. Hell I've nearly got that and I freely admit to not being such an uber-1337 player as everyone in this thread telling me to shut up and delete my Assassin for a Warrior.

It's mainly not the ability to track a character; it's more that Assassins have a reasonable range of threat even when in their own midline, and a positively huge one when he decides to step up a bit. It's also due to that that Assassins are "skillless".

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Therefore, I also find it unfathomable that the elite players who're doing most of the shouting don't know when an Assassin has gotten to Step range of any target they're in range of. Which allows them to stack their preprotting on whatever target the sin is most likely going for, discourage the spike, and save the day. Which is the reason I assume nobody uses Assassins in high-level PvP these days - it's as predictable for good people as normal IMS stances are for bad ones. The only advantage a Step skill gives is the ability to just bypass the frontline altogether - which is vital to being a good Assassin. People who don't think it's a big deal to have to charge through the frontline to get to the nice squishies are typically Warrior players, and nobody who has 140AL (100 base, 16 shield, 24 WY. 140.) on a regular basis is allowed to say squat to me about having to brush by other people to hit the real targets. No, I'm not saying it doesn't require skill - ye have to catch the madly kiting caster, which is never easy. Hell, I Dark Prison/Shroud of Silence and it still takes work to catch the damned creeps. What I'm saying is that anyone who can basically freely ignore enemy attempts to kill him really doesn't understand the words "70AL melee." 70AL melee means you either get by the enemy's frontline elements via Shadow Step or you get drilled in the face before you even get to half-range of the target. No, it doesn't take any real skill to Shadow Step to the target. it takes skill to know when and some skill to execute the kill. And then it can often take a truckload of skill to NOT DIE when the enemy frontline wheels and moves to hammer you.

More trivial corrections first - usually Warriors have 80 +20 (Physical) and +16 (Shield). Warriors swap to elemental weapons to hit other Warriors, and nobody uses "Watch Yourselves!".

What you say when you say “freely ignore enemy attempts to kill him” is untrue. Linebacking is perfectly viable. Warriors also do not spend their whole time trying to smash that squishy's face in. They also have to lineback for their own team.

(Which reminds me, I read a sentence somewhere saying that the Warriors' role is to “hold the line and keep your squishies safe”, as that would imply that you're spending most of your time hitting the other frontline. I'd say it's more like “kill stuff and lineback when you need to.)

Yes, it takes no skill to shadow step to the target.
It hardly takes any skill apart from basic ingame knowledge to know when to execute your chain.
And no, it takes hardly any skill to press 23456 after 1.
It doesn't take any skill apart from basic ingame knowledge to not get killed afterwards.

I also ask you to remember that 70AL melee isn't inviable, if the cost is worth it; I'm guessing every Warrior has played a Thumper before, and so does know what a 70AL squishie is like.

Quote:

Having played an Assassin without Steps in PvP, using just IMS stances and conventional snares - and before you yell, I've only played a Shadow Prisoner once, to say I had. I hate them with a ridiculous passion myself and am not arguing for their retention - I can safely say that IMS stances don't get the job done. They are not half as effective as a Step, and they do not allow you to bypass enemy defenders and strike critical targets, as the actual purpose of the Assassin is. You say that Assassins are supposed to be fast-moving killers. Not true. The killer part certainly is, but "fast-moving" is a flagger's job. And Assassins, as a general rule, aren't great flaggers. No, our job is simply to strike vulnerable targets. Warriors want to do that, but their first job is usually to hold the line and prevent your own casters from being slapped around. Dervishes are more offensive, with most of them designed to rampage through the line and blast things, forcing breaches that your own forces can take advantage of and sowing discord. At least, the Av of Mel ones are, and I haven't seen more than one in ten who aren't AoM. But again, they're trying to attrite rather than kill, wear down resources until the other side simply breaks. Assassins are the only class in this game who are able to, with any efficiency, bring down targets before that breaking point is reached, and as much as the balance people hate that, I think such a capability should always be here.

Ah, yes. There's where I saw that “hold the line” bit...

Bringing down targets before breaking point is okay, I guess, if implemented correctly. However, it's kinda hard to do so in terms of balance, and the current version of the Assassin definitely doesn't fit that description – it's more like “Press 123456 on a certain unprotted, important target. Wait for 20(5) seconds.”

Quote:

And if you take away our ability to hurt things at the same time that you get rid of our Steps, no amount of counterbuffing in the world will put Assassins on GvG teams over Mesmers. Because let’s face it, a ‘mildly’ damaging spike with a short recharge is pointless, because Assassins do not survive in the front of a battle. I pride myself on being able to get away from a bad fight more successfully than four of five other Assassins I’ve run across - and with nothing but Dash and good kiting to boot, no room for a defensive Step - and I still don’t dare strike a fighting target, or a well-escorted one. If I tried to stick around and wait for a second run-through of my chain I’d be a body on the floor before I was halfway through against anyone with two neurons to rub together, and everyone here knows it.

In my opinion, it depends. I don't like shadow steps, since they reduce a lot of the need for proper positioning, and if implemented incorrectly can lead to other classes abusing such; however, as long as they cannot be abused in such a way that something not unlike the current Assassin appears – i.e. A gimmick that does not require any specialization or skill apart from basic ingame skill and is very inflexible, but has an end result that justifies the inflexibility (basically, since there is no such gimmick, shadow stepping cannot be really exploited to such an extent, and as such forcing it to be more balanced). Although I still think that shadow stepping removes a lot of the skill required.

Again, I refer to the Thumper to say that 70AL melee are usable, to an extent, if implemented correctly.

Quote:

And before I ramble further, I’ll shut up and let everyone else tell me how horrible a noob I am. Again.

Let's try to avoid ad hominem fallacies in arguments.

fireflyry · Nov 30, 2007, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Which is what we're doing, methinks.

Don't take it personal, your one of the few people here who rebuts with both logic and reasoning.

Few.

P.S LaserLight for mod.

Or at least a big thanks for saying what I want to so much better than I either could or could be bothered at the time.

Nice one man, keep it up.