Curse

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by zknifeh

1) i dont use either and in order to get the adrenaline from those u have to be in the fight... they cant get u adrenaline BEFORE the fight... think about it
2) no matter wat HP they have, after my last attack skill they only really have enough hp for 1 more hit
3) i threw u an example that can kill a person in a few skills, once again i must repeat its not for GvG therefore its not for a team
4) the dagger mods matter, as u first posted u had "SHINY" daggers and all i said the "SHINY" doesnt matter... as in the skin itseld
5) i believe you are the one in denial and just want whatever is best for U
6) whirling D was the first skill that came to my mind and by saying u can use that i meant just use w/e block skill u want and no i dont GvG since its not my kind of play type
why must u look at everything from the "assassins are overpowered so lets neft them" point of view?

1) You must be fighting noobs, good players would do things to lessen the damage.
2) Oh yes, Im in denial, and so are all the Competent PvPers in the gladiator arena section. Go ahead, try and justify that sin are balance in that section.

/growwearyofarguingwithsinfandoyz

Sniffy · Nov 29, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Okay.

So is the concept of mildly-damaging spikes (think: 1/2 to 3/5 of a character's health) with somewhat low energy cost and low recharge, along with high amounts of disruption and other utility "worth the trade", if designed correctly?[/QUOTE]

At this point I would say an enthusiastic "Yes."

The problem with Assassins, is if they get the kill, people go "Wow! Sins are so overpowered! They take no skill to play! It's just 12345 or however long their chain is.
If they don't get the kill, they are, usually, stuck in a lousy position , with bad armor, running and screaming. Ok, not really. But if they don't get the kill, at this point, they are a largely useless (IE underpowered) class.

Which is why I would suppport their move to moderate spike short recharge spikes, with utility, and healing.

As long as Assassins can kill from full health in one spike, people who can't figure out how to stop it will whine about it, yet you can't just take away sin spiking ability, give them nothing else and say "Ok, they're balanced now."

On another note,
I guess I don't really understand the 123456 sins have no skill argument. Sure, if you want to, you can play your sin that way. That makes you a bad sin. Either that, or you are exceptionally lucky.
In order for me to win, I always have to think about who to hit, when, and with what. When I started playing sin, I thought I could mash buttons and get kills. While you often can on a heavily pressured character, it usually takes more thought, timing, and skill than that.

If you still insist on the 12345 argument, then why are Warriors harder to play?
Wars must build up adrenaline.
Yeah? Gee, pressing c space is so much harder than 12345.
Then warriors (spike wars) do their chain. Maybe wars take more skill because they arrange their chain 34251. Beats me.
Pressure wars just use their pressure.
Look! Running foe! Wars do bull strike, sins do siphon speed. Or whatever variations.

This is not to bash warriors. Or sins. I think both classes require more skill to play than mashing buttons. But there is a limited amount of skill you can put into a game like this with current technology limits. I think they have, overall, despite our complaints, they have done an excellent job. Looking at other games, there are so many things about GW we tend to take for granted.
I'm guessing nothing, or not much will be done about sins in Guild Wars.
Hopefully though, we can present the Assassin argument, why they're good, fun, useful, necessary to game balance to keep casters from running rampant, etc to get them the placement they deserve in GW 2.

Sort of off topic, but are they coming out with another expansion before GW 2 that they could change sins in? Or does it go straight to 2?

MercenaryK · Nov 29, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

There's no further expansions to be released. A-Net is going straight in to GW2.

This thread needs to be closed; it's too deep in the stupid flaming and crazy pulled out of ass ideas.

yum · Nov 29, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

In order for me to win, I always have to think about who to hit, when, and with what. When I started playing sin, I thought I could mash buttons and get kills. While you often can on a heavily pressured character, it usually takes more thought, timing, and skill than that.

then u press 123456. ZOMG itzzzz xooo harttt !!!!!!111!!!eleven1111!!

Quote:

Wars must build up adrenaline.
Yeah? Gee, pressing c space is so much harder than 12345.
Then warriors (spike wars) do their chain. Maybe wars take more skill because they arrange their chain 34251. Beats me.
Pressure wars just use their pressure.
Look! Running foe! Wars do bull strike, sins do siphon speed. Or whatever variations.

you're bad. Don't post about something you have no idea about.

Quote:

This is not to bash warriors. Or sins. I think both classes require more skill to play than mashing buttons. But there is a limited amount of skill you can put into a game like this with current technology limits. I think they have, overall, despite our complaints, they have done an excellent job. Looking at other games, there are so many things about GW we tend to take for granted.
I'm guessing nothing, or not much will be done about sins in Guild Wars.
Hopefully though, we can present the Assassin argument, why they're good, fun, useful, necessary to game balance to keep casters from running rampant, etc to get them the placement they deserve in GW 2.

except for rits, dervs, paras,sins and necros, everything is good.

Quote:

There's no further expansions to be released. A-Net is going straight in to GW2.

This thread needs to be closed; it's too deep in the stupid flaming and crazy pulled out of ass ideas.

QFT.
Why wasting time on it?Just nerf them into oblivion, who cares? Ppl can still find fun in pve with buttons smashing. Since every reasonable suggested change that removes "avatar of Narutard" from sins is protested.

Cloze plz

Sniffy · Nov 29, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

then u press 123456. ZOMG itzzzz xooo harttt !!!!!!111!!!eleven1111!!

So you just push your *six* attack skills without any thought on how you're actually using them and whether or not your target is the correct one or whether you should wait another 2 seconds for the optimum spike? Just curious. I personally consider the actual chain to be anti-climactic. If I've done it right, positioned myself right, and timed it right, I might get a kill, I might not. If you just push your buttons in order, and I can guarantee you will fairly rarely get the kill.

you're bad. Don't post about something you have no idea about.

Such a classic. Insult a person without telling what they did wrong. It makes the insulter look smart and the insulted look dumb. If you can explain what I said wrong, I'll take the insult. If you're just calling people noob because they disagree with you, I don't care.

I also suport the closing of this if people are just going to flame other people and are not going to constructively point out what is wrong (or not wrong) with assassins and try to think of potential useful fixes.

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

then u press 123456. ZOMG itzzzz xooo harttt !!!!!!111!!!eleven1111!!

So you just push your *six* attack skills without any thought on how you're actually using them and whether or not your target is the correct one or whether you should wait another 2 seconds for the optimum spike? Just curious. I personally consider the actual chain to be anti-climactic. If I've done it right, positioned myself right, and timed it right, I might get a kill, I might not. If you just push your buttons in order, and I can guarantee you will fairly rarely get the kill.

you're bad. Don't post about something you have no idea about.

Such a classic. Insult a person without telling what they did wrong. It makes the insulter look smart and the insulted look dumb. If you can explain what I said wrong, I'll take the insult. If you're just calling people noob because they disagree with you, I don't care.

I also suport the closing of this if people are just going to flame other people and are not going to constructively point out what is wrong (or not wrong) with assassins and try to think of potential useful fixes.

Not that I enjoy flaming, or being a retard (LOL who am I fooling?) But your post and lack of brainpower when it comes to PvP makes the Baby Jesus cry. Stop. PLEASE.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

This is just in theory as I can't read peoples mind.
First thing everyone wants >.> Is for sin's to not be able to take an IAS and Deadly Paradox to die. When those things are now unusable for the assassin (or DP changed so that its not hurting the game). I think the problems will die down for a bit.
We will hear a couple "thank you zombie jesus" then get down to more problems.

Really its hard to give an accurate prediction of things now, considering almost every sin and its mom is running an IAS or Deadly Paradox.

Shadow Steps don't have to go. If critical strikes raised the crit chance by 2% or 3% instead of 1% we could raise the Energy costs for shadow steps to about 15 for some of them. And some of the deadly arts skills wouldn't be such a high cost to the assassin.

Im guessing now that people are hoping to see builds like (Note may have shadow step in it

[card]Leaping Mantis Sting[/card] (Look at previous suggestion, doing more damage to crippled foes and after following a dual...something like 3-4 recharge)
[card]Jungle Strike[/card] (something like 3-4 recharge)
[card]Death blossom[/card]
[card]Impale[/card] (I dunno something like 8 recharge)
[card]Disrupting Dagger[/card] (put to something like 6 recharge)
[card]Shock[/card]
[card]Aura of Displacement[/card]
[card]Dash[/card] (with a duration buff to like 4/5 seconds or a recharge buff to 6)

Assassin goes in , Cripples,Unleashes combo, Can use shock or disrupting in between has DW, DB is his small spike.
Though this is the idea that the chain would be buffed so that the L-O-D is better
He'd have shock and Disrupting dagger as utility, Dash as an IMS, with AoD's 20 second recharge he's always mobile, and with a dual sin spike they are even more potent.

This would work even better if they changed Critical Strikes to giving 2%/3.5% chance to crit per attribute or something.

Or if CT gave more energy or something then raise AoD to 15 energy and 15 recharge...
As it is now, the above combo probably fails.

With recharges being like this
Lead attack- very low recharge
Off-hand Very low...tad high recharge
Duals -- very low (DB case) -- high (like 10 seconds)

Just get the IAS out of the sin's hand, do some shit to paradox. And sin's in pve won't soffer because they will not have low recharge attacks and such.
If we gave things like
[card]Mark of Insecurity[/card], There stances and enchantments also cost an additional 5 energy... on top of its duration killing effect. Great we'd see that more.

Topic doesn't need to be closed, if people stop flaming.
And people give an earnest view of both sides.

Amalek · Nov 29, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

If you still insist on the 12345 argument, then why are Warriors harder to play?
Wars must build up adrenaline.
Yeah? Gee, pressing c space is so much harder than 12345.
Then warriors (spike wars) do their chain. Maybe wars take more skill because they arrange their chain 34251. Beats me.
Pressure wars just use their pressure.
Look! Running foe! Wars do bull strike, sins do siphon speed. Or whatever variations.

It's pretty clear you know nothing about warrior, so please try not to post stuff like that, k?

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Guys chill out. I'm not a warrior expert >.> Not a huge fan (made 1 yesterday though)

Warrior's are considered to take more skill because.
Without shadow steps the warrior can be seen running at them, which the monk then puts up prot spirit and tells the warrior to go cry in a corner. Then the warrior brings /D rending touch and tells the monk to stfu >.>

Warrior's cannot unleash their spike right away, or their utility generally as they need the adrenaline.
While the warrior is whacking mindlessly he's doing good DPS. When hes about to spike the warrior can then activate frenzy, start and then hit Shock when he sees or predict the monk casting a spell, to stop from helping a team mate or itself.

The assassin with shadow steps doesn't need to run up to an enemy, instead he appears behind them scaring em. Then he unleashes a 4/5 skill combo.
Heres the thing.

If warriors dedicated their skillbars in the same way sin's do, they could be almost or just as potent. Problem? most warriors will not sacrifice all their survival or utility on one target that could fail.

The current IMBA sin builds just take the intelligence out of assassin's because they rather go insta-gib and take a gamble then bring any kind of utility or anything else =P

Well im probably not right >.> since im not a warrior fan.

Bobby2 · Nov 29, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Versatility on Sins. Pretty dreams!

I enjoy my Moebius builds no end as I enjoy pressuring (training) foes.

Ran an Axe Warrior too. He generally did a better job at that playstyle.

I play Sin because it's cool.

I hate instagibSins! Though it is the very thing they were made for, since no other class can beat them in this regard, I'd like them to lose a little on that level - and indeed GAIN SOME GDDMN VERSATILITY. To me, it'd be well worth it.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

The build I posted if it was buffed.

Would have the sin's doing damage every 3-4 seconds.
Every 8 seconds they do a full spike (not as strong as todays SP shit spike...but it's far more usable and more managable for BOTH sides)
With leaping mantis sting doing + 3......9....12 damage to crippled foes
and +....6....12..15 if it follows a dual attack leaping having something like 1/4 cast time or something (making it faster than the basic attack)

Jungle strike doing something like
If it hits...same stuff (instead of must follow a lead)
+3...7...12 damage if it follows a lead attack.

Means the spike is always stronger...The second time, do to Leaping doing more damage hitting a crippled foe (so after you crippled with leaping...if they are still crippled when you use it again...MORE damage) and you would hit after a dual attack on your second thing making Leaping even stronger!
thus right away the sin won't do some horrid damage, they'll have to go through it the first time >.> and with impale 8 second recharge, they have to decide...DW now or DW the second time when the spikes stronger. If they don't have the time because they are dying and need to bail...its DW now and leave... let someone else get em.

AOD lets the sin get around and when he's not using AOD do to 20 second recharge, he's dashing around.

I'd love to take out AOD, and put Mark of insecurity in there some where with the
There enchantments and stances cost 5 more energy clause.
Piss off flaggers when there enchantment ends in about a second... Im running up to them in dash... and then cripple em ....heh

Iinstagib sucks because I don't like running some fun builds and then ending up dead because I don't take the IAS and SP

Sniffy · Nov 29, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

<sigh> Next time I'll be sure to spell it out. Oversimplifying sins to 12345 is the equivalent to simplyfying spike warriors to how I simplified them. Neither one of them is pure button mashing IMHO, I think there's a lot more to playing each class than that, but I'm just weird like that.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

<sigh> Next time I'll be sure to spell it out. Oversimplifying sins to 12345 is the equivalent to simplyfying spike warriors to how I simplified them. Neither one of them is pure button mashing IMHO, I think there's a lot more to playing each class than that, but I'm just weird like that.

that argument can be valid if they are not running SP sin/ Soj sin.

Otherwise >.> Sorry my friend.

That argument is also invalid if they have an IAS 80% of the time.

Sniffy · Nov 29, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Well, yes if you're just running the TS or SoJ sin you could probably just mash buttons. Though if you play right, unless you're hard up for energy/already fighting something else, you know what's coming, so that type of button spamming is easy to stay alive against (unless you build lacks block, blind, selfheal, condition removal etc.)

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

No build is activating its condition removal if its on its ass.
No build can block Through Expose defenses.
Selfheals aren't used alot once you get further and further trough pvp.
Blind means nothing vs Soj Sins.
Block means nothing vs Soj Sins.
Condition removal means nothing vs Soj Sin (your on your ass remember)
Self heal means nothing vs Soj sins (your on your ass!)

Bobby2 · Nov 29, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Eh. My current Moebius build runs both [skill]Exhausting Assault[/skill] and [skill]Distracting Blow[/skill]. I've been able to put up quite a fight against both SP and SoJ Sins, they have been tough but I've been victorius just as often as they. If their chain does not complete they are damn worthless and technically you need 1 (-----1------!!!!!!) close-range interrupt (SoJ post-Augury) to ruin them. Forgive me but that's not too much too ask from ANY class. If this becomes common practice, 123456(2222)-Sins will be far more precarious as to when to use their skills ---> slower/non-kills. Everybody happy!

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

You will not be beating any SOJ sin, if they see you first.
Unless you shadow step from caster-range.

Deadly paradox also makes almost any skill they use hard to interrupt.
it was horrible before, now its just pretty damn hard.

Sniffy · Nov 29, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

No build is activating its condition removal if its on its ass.
No build can block Through Expose defenses.
Selfheals aren't used alot once you get further and further trough pvp.
Blind means nothing vs Soj Sins.
Block means nothing vs Soj Sins.
Condition removal means nothing vs Soj Sin (your on your ass remember)
Self heal means nothing vs Soj sins (your on your ass!)

1.True, but you have a period of time after Augury kicks in when fighting SoJ that you are not sitting, and if you use (my personal favorite is Mending Touch) that in and of itself can pretty much save you by getting rid of deep wound (and poison but particularly deep wound).
2. Expose Defenses has been nerfed to such an extent, I haven't seen a sin with it in a looong time. That said, you don't try to block through Expose Defenses. Rangers d-shot, necros insidious etc. Monks prot spirit/reversal of fortune. Though granted a lot of builds would die to expose with a decent chain involved (I'm guessing you would have to use SP or monks would just /laugh remove hex guardian, what do you do if you get hit with, say conjure phantasm+nightmare and you have no healing? You'll die. If you don't counter a specific build, or have the raw survivability to get through the pressure/spike you will die to anything. If you're a mesmer with Ether Feast, and you don't have a monk or anti-war, the war (if he's worth his salt) will kill you. Same with sins.
3. I'm not sure I understand what you were saying in this one.
4/5. This is why people have such a problem with SoJ sins. They keep treating them like melee instead of casters. I love dazing them and watching them be helpless. However, I would like to state, once more, I do *not* think the SoJ build is balanced, and it should be nerfed, I'm just saying it's not as hard to survive against as everyone seems to think.
The few times I did play TS in RA, target monk would stand up in time to cast Reversal of Fortune, just as I did Impale, and then heal, so unless I had a coordinated team (rofl it was RA remember) the monk would survive. Granted this was only monks who knew what they were doing/facing. So at the time I just figured they were overrated. But right now, I'm glad TS sins are gone, I just want the basic sin skills back (just make dagger attack skills not affected by IAS) or a rework of the assassin class. And since the latter isn't likely to happen, I'm rooting for the former.

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

I'd like to make a few big changes to my Suggestions.

1) All IMS than are more than 33% will be reduced to 33%
2) Critical strikes will give an extra 1% IMS to all these stances for every point in the attribute (eg, at 12 CS, you get an extra 12%, fo all 33% become 45%, a 25% becomes 37% etc)

-This is mainly to preven abuse by secondary proffessions, and buff it up further for assassins. And give CS something that isn't Luck based.

3) Shadow Prison now interrupts and cripples, the recharge is 10 seconds.

Lol, posted it in the wrong thread, oh well.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

why the hell would critical strikes give 1% ims.

That would be shadow arts.

Also why the hell make dash suck?

Also.... you couldn't use temple strike in RA well?

>.> pfft.