Curse

LaserLight · Nov 29, 2007, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Blind Assassin fanboys, is it? Hm hm...if you say so. It just seems to me that I'm the only one in Guru who actually wants to keep Assassins, as something which resemble Assassins, rather than FUBAR-ed little Mesmers with funny clothes, gimped knives, and a compulsion to run everywhere.

I would argue, but it seems obvious that everyone here is convinced I'm just trying to save the instagib teleporter because I'm a totally bulls*** Guild Wars player with zero skill and less perception. After all, I don't play Warriors, therefore I must be horrid. It couldn't possibly be because I, uh...just don't like Warriors? Egads...what a notion?!

Anyways. In response, I say just this: You want to remove the Assassin's ability to deal crippling damage to a target, instead allowing them to rapid-recharge a weak attack string. Then, you want them to have to get to their target on foot, piercing their foe's frontline fighters without the aid of Shadow Steps. Then, because they do weak damage in short, rapid bursts, you want them to stay there to apply their pressure until either victorious or recalled. And you want them to do it on piss-poor 70AL armor.

Tell me...exactly which part of this sounds viable to you? Because there isn't much of it at all that seems to work for me.

LightningHell · Nov 29, 2007, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Blind Assassin fanboys, is it? Hm hm...if you say so. It just seems to me that I'm the only one in Guru who actually wants to keep Assassins, as something which resemble Assassins, rather than FUBAR-ed little Mesmers with funny clothes, gimped knives, and a compulsion to run everywhere.

I would argue, but it seems obvious that everyone here is convinced I'm just trying to save the instagib teleporter because I'm a totally bulls*** Guild Wars player with zero skill and less perception. After all, I don't play Warriors, therefore I must be horrid. It couldn't possibly be because I, uh...just don't like Warriors? Egads...what a notion?!

Anyways. In response, I say just this: You want to remove the Assassin's ability to deal crippling damage to a target, instead allowing them to rapid-recharge a weak attack string. Then, you want them to have to get to their target on foot, piercing their foe's frontline fighters without the aid of Shadow Steps. Then, because they do weak damage in short, rapid bursts, you want them to stay there to apply their pressure until either victorious or recalled. And you want them to do it on piss-poor 70AL armor.

Tell me...exactly which part of this sounds viable to you? Because there isn't much of it at all that seems to work for me.

If you are able to constantly switch between mid and frontline, which is how I see the "new" Assassin, then you'd be able to not die. Also, I guess defense skills would need a buff.

However, the instagib function being imba is already established, and hence needs to be removed in terms of PvP. Agree?

glountz · Nov 29, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Blind Assassin fanboys, is it? Hm hm...if you say so. It just seems to me that I'm the only one in Guru who actually wants to keep Assassins, as something which resemble Assassins, rather than FUBAR-ed little Mesmers with funny clothes, gimped knives, and a compulsion to run everywhere.

I would argue, but it seems obvious that everyone here is convinced I'm just trying to save the instagib teleporter because I'm a totally bulls*** Guild Wars player with zero skill and less perception. After all, I don't play Warriors, therefore I must be horrid. It couldn't possibly be because I, uh...just don't like Warriors? Egads...what a notion?!

Anyways. In response, I say just this: You want to remove the Assassin's ability to deal crippling damage to a target, instead allowing them to rapid-recharge a weak attack string. Then, you want them to have to get to their target on foot, piercing their foe's frontline fighters without the aid of Shadow Steps. Then, because they do weak damage in short, rapid bursts, you want them to stay there to apply their pressure until either victorious or recalled. And you want them to do it on piss-poor 70AL armor.

Tell me...exactly which part of this sounds viable to you? Because there isn't much of it at all that seems to work for me.

I play essentially warrior, especially in GvG. While I like them a lot, I cannot fathom BS crap like "remove sins from the game". Sins are weak in flagstand situations, weak in 8v8 in general (non split GvG situation), and, since the last nerf, even weak for the so-called instagib (if there is a monk or even a WoR rit around, either in split or at flagstand, there's no way a sin can kill alone an ennemy). Most people here want sins to be weak, said bluntly. To be removed from the game, or be nerfed into such a uselessness no one will ever pick them up (which is the same thing than to remove them from the game).
The biggest argument is that sins take no skill to play. So it's a nub class. They shortcut positionning by Shadow stepping and shortcut spikes by instagibbing. The fact that their armor is crap, that their chains are frail, that their instagibs are every 20secs only and they can't do anything good in-between, is not even taken into account by these people. Sins never made the difference against retarded gimmicks like Tacticgons blockway, if I remember. Shadow stepping isn't reserved to them, hammer wars used Death Charge.
In addition, having played Melandrus, I don't even understand how Mels Wearying strikes spammers are considered like "balanced" and don't even receive critics from the same people. They are as skillless as sins.

But be quiet. A-Net won't overhaul the prof 'til GW2, they have largely other things to do. Thus this whole discussion about "fixing" sins is completely sterile.

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

one crappy cripple every 20 seconds. it's not much better than pin down, and it's elite.

Point taken, I should have made the recharge 5 - 10

a lousy bull's charge clone

Expain how a clone of Bull Strike, (one of the best warrior skills ever) be bad? It's an easier version it to use, but doesn't have the damage to balance it.

a lousy contemplation of purity clone

That can also give a constant speed boost, it could include hex removal as well, but I felt that could have been a tad imba, I should also mention SM will include itself upon the number of removed conditions

what complete shit

Agreed

ok so you have a ONE hit chance to critical and cause dw, seriously who would use this trash?

Assassins can manipulate their critical hits, the the same way paras do with Vic throw and GftE. It could have synergy with Critical Strike(The duel attack)

i have no words to describe this failure
Well it beats your fail.

See quoted for my comments.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Stop with the IMS stuff now >.> its going no where.
The fact of the matter is sin's have to IMS's Dash and Dark escape...shadow of haste I will not count until its reverted to its original form.
Im sure we can find some common ground.
I still say the entire 1st steps to take to anything appeasing anyone.
Deadly paradox dies. Sin Utility goes up. Once sin utility is up, people will start experimenting for awhile, you'll probably see less SP sin soj sin since everyone is trying to figure out wtf they can do with this.
Thats when we go in for the daggers.

Buffing lead attacks to the point they are viable is nice too

Black Lotus Strike
Lead Attack. If it hits, Black Lotus Strike strikes for +10...27 damage. If target foe is suffering from a Hex, you gain 5...15 energy. If this follows a dual attack you get an additional + 3...4..5 energy
10 Energy 10 Recharge

Factions
Unsuspecting Strike
lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +19...29 damage. If your target was above 80% Health you deal an additional 15...63 damage.
5 Energy 4 Recharge
Dagger Mastery
Black Mantis Thrust
Lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +8...18 damage. If target foe is suffering from a Hex, that foe is Crippled for 3...13 seconds. If this follows a dual attack you do an additional +15 damage .
5 Energy 4 Recharge
Desperate Strike

Lead Attack. If you have less than 50...74...80% Health, you steal +15...51 damage.If you have above 80% hp you deal +20 damage. If this follows a dual attack this attack cannot be blocked.
5 Energy 4 Recharge

Disrupting Stab
Lead Attack. If this attack hits, it interrupts target foe's action . If that action was a Spell, it is disabled for 3...9 seconds.
5 Energy 1/4 activation 6 Recharge

Golden Fox Strike
Lead Attack. If this attack hits, target foe takes +14...28 damage. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment, this attack cannot be "blocked".
5 Energy 3 Recharge

golden Lotus Strike renamed Golden Lotus Blossom
Lead Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +6...20 damage to all adjacent foes. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment, you gain 5...11 Energy. If this follows a dual attack you deal an additional +7...12..14 damage to all adjacent foes.
5 Energy 3 Recharge

Jagged Strike
Lead Attack. If Jagged Strike hits, your target suffers from Bleeding for 5...17 seconds.If this hits a foe suffering from deep wound you do an additional +5..15 damage. If this follows a dual attack you do an additional +16 damage.
With jagged's spam, you can spam it against a DW foe
5 Energy 1 Recharge

Leaping Mantis Sting
Lead Attack. If Leaping Mantis Sting hits, target foe takes +14...19 damage. If this attack strikes a moving foe, that foe is Crippled for 3...13 seconds. If you hit a crippled foe you do an additional +3...9..12 damage. If this follows a dual attack you do an additional +3...7..10 damage.
5 energy 4 recharge.

Iron palm
Target touched foe suffers 11...41 damage, and if that foe is suffering from a Hex or Condition that foe is knocked down. Iron Palm counts as a lead attack. If this follows a dual attack you do an additional 30 damage.
5 energy 3/4 cast 8 recharge.

That means after you've done your Dual attack...Iron palm can do 71 damage (since its armor ignoring) to a 60 Al target! Although only once as then the target gets the Lead attack sign on them.

Dancing daggers
Send out three Dancing Daggers at target foe, each striking for 5...29 earth damage if they hit. Dancing Daggers has half the normal range. This skill counts as a lead attack. If this follows a dual attack all adjacent foes take 5...20 earth.
5 energy 1 second cast 5 recharge.

Making attacks stronger after following Duals = Promotes L-O-D or L-O-D-O-D

Repeating Strike:
Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...26 damage. If it misses, it takes an additional 15 seconds to recharge. If this attack criticals target foe is interrupted.
Contents

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Stop with the IMS stuff now >.> its going no where.
The fact of the matter is sin's have to IMS's Dash and Dark escape...shadow of haste I will not count until its reverted to its original form.

Do explain how the fact that a few assassin insta kill fanboyz like X Cytherea X can't bare the loss of their imba steps means my idea is going no where? It just needs a few more things working out.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Do explain how the fact that a few assassin insta kill fanboyz like X Cytherea X can't bare the loss of their imba steps means my idea is going no where? It just needs a few more things working out.

I tried the ims idea 2 months ago >.> Think about it for awhile then your going to go...wait.

Sin being mobile? Then they should have Very,very few 33% buffs.... needs more 40%,60%,50% ^.^

>.> Half-range shadow steps just make more sense.

Also makes sense for roleplaying, and is easier for pvpers.

Half-range isn't extremely far.

Theres no reason to change Scorpion to a IMS for sure >.>
Its not just about running from foe after activating.

Cast it on the foe...Iron palm them or something then FS, TF (just an example)
they start kiting, cast shameful fear... then you run away.
They end up on the floor and shameful fear had damaged em a bit.
finish em off and go home for cookies.

You don't need to cast then run >.>

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Well, I was thinking of adding another clause to Critical strikes, on the lines of having an extra 1% speed increase on IMS for each point.

Making Shadow steps 1/2 range would make most of them even more pointless.

I don't get why removing shadow steps is against the assassin theme, IMS makes more sense, Assassins are fast moving killers, not teleporters.

zknifeh · Nov 29, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

seems to me that you just dont like assassins and want to change them to warriors. guess what! my warrior can insta kill ppl too! and my bar doesnt require me to build adrenalin by whacking away on you, no, i have it all charged up and ready to go before i go into a fight... i think we should nerf that too no?
my point is that assassins are fine the way they are just like most other professions in this game... also with the changes that you are wanting, why not rename the whole profession from "Assassin" to "War-wannabe"

fireflyry · Nov 29, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I play essentially warrior, especially in GvG. While I like them a lot, I cannot fathom BS crap like "remove sins from the game". Sins are weak in flagstand situations, weak in 8v8 in general (non split GvG situation), and, since the last nerf, even weak for the so-called instagib (if there is a monk or even a WoR rit around, either in split or at flagstand, there's no way a sin can kill alone an ennemy). Most people here want sins to be weak, said bluntly. To be removed from the game, or be nerfed into such a uselessness no one will ever pick them up (which is the same thing than to remove them from the game).
The biggest argument is that sins take no skill to play. So it's a nub class. They shortcut positionning by Shadow stepping and shortcut spikes by instagibbing. The fact that their armor is crap, that their chains are frail, that their instagibs are every 20secs only and they can't do anything good in-between, is not even taken into account by these people. Sins never made the difference against retarded gimmicks like Tacticgons blockway, if I remember. Shadow stepping isn't reserved to them, hammer wars used Death Charge.
In addition, having played Melandrus, I don't even understand how Mels Wearying strikes spammers are considered like "balanced" and don't even receive critics from the same people. They are as skillless as sins.

But be quiet. A-Net won't overhaul the prof 'til GW2, they have largely other things to do. Thus this whole discussion about "fixing" sins is completely sterile.

Amen.

When reading these threads I tend to get the general feeling to many people are just grumpy at being killed by Sins hence the repetitive nature of the criticism from the same handful of posters who confess to bias and dislike against the class in general anyway.

It's all rather cyclic and predictable but I guess every game needs a scapegoat and every MMO I've ever played has one.

moriz · Nov 29, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Assassins are a gank character, a type of character that has been bad for PvP in every RPG it has existed in. Gank characters are bad because their defining features are some combination of the ability to create completely one-sided fights at will, the ability to avoid fights not in their favor completely, and the ability to deny their opponents the ability to prepare for them.

riotgear said it the best. for the sake of game balance, which GW is fundamentally based on, sins will have to be changed into a midline disruption character or nerfed into oblivion. either way works.

yum · Nov 29, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by zknifeh

seems to me that you just dont like assassins and want to change them to warriors. guess what! my warrior can insta kill ppl too! and my bar doesnt require me to build adrenalin by whacking away on you, no, i have it all charged up and ready to go before i go into a fight... i think we should nerf that too no?
my point is that assassins are fine the way they are just like most other professions in this game... also with the changes that you are wanting, why not rename the whole profession from "Assassin" to "War-wannabe"

U pak 8 attak skills???!!!Is power strike the key in your bar??

No we don't want to change them to warrior. We want assasin become a class that requires from players more than simply pressing 123456.

@X Cytherea X: who says that "trees" are balanced?

Ok IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KEEP THE NARAUTARD FEELING, how about this:

Keep the 1234567 as you like BUT while being target of any assasin's hostile skill, all hexes and conditions on that target end and the target cant not be target of skills and attack from any other source except from the first who uses those skills on.

You want a solo killer? You have it. Ye, it makes sins trash vs organized team while great vs idiots but hey, is that the way the class is designed?

zknifeh · Nov 29, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

^no i dont pack 8 attack skills... and no i dont use power attack
its more like 5 attack skills, snare, and 2 utulity skills and still kills targets as fast as an assassin
IMO in order for sins to stop being the 12345 prof and become wat you call more versatile, then yould have to remove the chains and make the skills without the lead/offhand requirements.
but then again that would make them more warrior dont u think?
therefore i think as long as the skill chains are a must, it will always be 1234

MercenaryK · Nov 29, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I play essentially warrior, especially in GvG. While I like them a lot, I cannot fathom BS crap like "remove sins from the game". Sins are weak in flagstand situations, weak in 8v8 in general (non split GvG situation), and, since the last nerf, even weak for the so-called instagib (if there is a monk or even a WoR rit around, either in split or at flagstand, there's no way a sin can kill alone an ennemy). Most people here want sins to be weak, said bluntly. To be removed from the game, or be nerfed into such a uselessness no one will ever pick them up (which is the same thing than to remove them from the game).
The biggest argument is that sins take no skill to play. So it's a nub class. They shortcut positionning by Shadow stepping and shortcut spikes by instagibbing. The fact that their armor is crap, that their chains are frail, that their instagibs are every 20secs only and they can't do anything good in-between, is not even taken into account by these people. Sins never made the difference against retarded gimmicks like Tacticgons blockway, if I remember. Shadow stepping isn't reserved to them, hammer wars used Death Charge.
In addition, having played Melandrus, I don't even understand how Mels Wearying strikes spammers are considered like "balanced" and don't even receive critics from the same people. They are as skillless as sins.

But be quiet. A-Net won't overhaul the prof 'til GW2, they have largely other things to do. Thus this whole discussion about "fixing" sins is completely sterile.

QFT

People pay the price for not paying attention to the Assassin and some one dies. People that pay attention and the Assassin kills. Assassin's can't solo kill much now with a good enemy monk. Nothing really needs to be changed except that when killing players (not npcs) the Sin needs to work with the team. Otherwise he's just applying pressure.

fireflyry · Nov 29, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by zknifeh

therefore i think as long as the skill chains are a must, it will always be 1234

So simple, yet so true.

Amazing people can't seem to get their head around this obvious class mechanic and instead repeat the mantra of 12345 Sin's being idiots or noobs when the class is designed for skills to be used in a consecutive manner.

Duh.

Blame the game design, not the player using it to it's highest potential in terms of DPS or effectiveness in game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

riotgear said it the best. for the sake of game balance, which GW is fundamentally based on, sins will have to be changed into a midline disruption character or nerfed into oblivion. either way works.

I actually really agree with that quote other than the fact it does'nt list the obvious negatives of playing the class but it's all past tense and impractical to suggest a class which has been around for over a year and attracted a fair portion of players and fans should now be nerfed into oblivion.

If it effects the meta to such a huge degree then maybe Sin's will be history come GW2 but you can't alter the whole play style and purpose of a class after this long just to please those that dislike it while using the cry of "imba" and "meta" to justify the logic.

The blame is in Anet's hands, not the players, and I'm pretty confident the last update and maybe an upcoming nerf to DP or AoD will be the end of skill changes for the Sin till GW is dead.

Time will tell I guess.

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by zknifeh

seems to me that you just dont like assassins and want to change them to warriors. guess what! my warrior can insta kill ppl too! and my bar doesnt require me to build adrenalin by whacking away on you, no, i have it all charged up and ready to go before i go into a fight... i think we should nerf that too no?
my point is that assassins are fine the way they are just like most other professions in this game... also with the changes that you are wanting, why not rename the whole profession from "Assassin" to "War-wannabe"

1) Warriors cannot insta kill, they must build up adrenaline.
2) Killing with warriors takes a greater degree of skill.
3) You must be running a sub bar build, since none of the good warrior builds have adren charged up before a fight (I speak of things such as the common Eviscerate axe war, Crip slash, Backbreaker, Dev hammer you may see in GvG) , I assume your using Rage of the Ntouka. Medicre for PvP use.
4) Yes, I hate assassin, if you ignore the fact I own one and have devoted much time to him, rewarded with shiny cool daggers and Vabbian armor. I simply want to make him better.
5) Denying the issue and saying sins are fine is foolish.

Here is a small change to my idea:

All stance which had more than 33% IMS will be reduced to 33%, and critical strikes will give you an extra 1% IMS for each point whiles in a stance. SO at 10 critical, a 33% IMS, would be 43%.

My changes, believe it or not, still fit in the the assassin/ninja sterotype, of being fast moving

zknifeh · Nov 29, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

1) Warriors cannot insta kill, they must build up adrenaline.
2) Killing with warriors takes a greater degree of skill.
3) You must be running a sub bar build, since none of the good warrior builds have adren charged up before a fight (I speak of things such as the common Eviscerate axe war, Crip slash, Backbreaker, Dev hammer you may see in GvG) , I assume your using Rage of the Ntouka. Medicre for PvP use.
4) Yes, I hate assassin, if you ignore the fact I own one and have devoted much time to him, rewarded with shiny cool daggers and Vabbian armor. I simply want to make him better.
5) Denying the issue and saying sins are fine is foolish.

Here is a small change to my idea:

All stance which had more than 33% IMS will be reduced to 33%, and critical strikes will give you an extra 1% IMS for each point whiles in a stance. SO at 10 critical, a 33% IMS, would be 43%.

My changes, believe it or not, still fit in the the assassin/ninja sterotype, of being fast moving

1 - yes they can... u just might not know it
2 - i never said it didnt take skill. due to the req'd positioning and other factors
3 - if my build can kill u in 1 combo doesnt mean its sub-par... at the same time its NOT for GvG... and no i dont waste my elite on rage of nkoua... its rather a dev hammer, sometimes changed to earth shaker
4 - woopty doo a vabbi armor and shiny daggers... i have those as well just like half of the other assassins as well. those things dont really make anything special in the way how assassin's skills work
5 - its not really denying... i personally dont see anything wrong with them
sure u get ganked if u dont pay attention. so u should do wat i do... pay attention to it. usually easy to spot a sin coming towards u before he shadow steps in and puts u on the floow... since it looks like ranger is ur primary, use whirling d!!!

or do wat a ranger should actually do and interupt the chain so they cant finish it

sins may have powerful chains but dont forget that it can be fragile if your enemy is smart

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by zknifeh

1 - yes they can... u just might not know it
2 - i never said it didnt take skill. due to the req'd positioning and other factors
3 - if my build can kill u in 1 combo doesnt mean its sub-par... at the same time its NOT for GvG... and no i dont waste my elite on rage of nkoua... its rather a dev hammer, sometimes changed to earth shaker
4 - woopty doo a vabbi armor and shiny daggers... i have those as well just like half of the other assassins as well. those things dont really make anything special in the way how assassin's skills work
5 - its not really denying... i personally dont see anything wrong with them
sure u get ganked if u dont pay attention. so u should do wat i do... pay attention to it. usually easy to spot a sin coming towards u before he shadow steps in and puts u on the floow... since it looks like ranger is ur primary, use whirling d!!!

or do wat a ranger should actually do and interupt the chain so they cant finish it

since may have powerful chains but dont forget that it can be fragile if your enemy is smart

1) You must be using Enraged with Mokele Smash inorder to get your adren charged before the fight as you say. Enraged is good, but Mokele Smash is far from needed.
2) Unless the person your killing is a total noob who has less than 600HP on a caster, the popular warrior combos are not likely to insta kill, by themselves, which is why GvG teams use two axe warrior, for twice the spike.
3)It's not about whether your build can kill me in one combo, can it kill in one combo in the context of team play?
4) The daggers I have can have effects on the way I place, so equipment matters
5) Your are either in denial, or blind if you think assassins have no issue.
6) I'd NEVER use whirling defence, Natural Stride is leagues better. the fact you suggest that skill over natural could be proof of you lack of exprience in high end PvP.

zknifeh · Nov 29, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

1) i dont use either and in order to get the adrenaline from those u have to be in the fight... they cant get u adrenaline BEFORE the fight... think about it
2) no matter wat HP they have, after my last attack skill they only really have enough hp for 1 more hit
3) i threw u an example that can kill a person in a few skills, once again i must repeat its not for GvG therefore its not for a team
4) the dagger mods matter, as u first posted u had "SHINY" daggers and all i said the "SHINY" doesnt matter... as in the skin itseld
5) i believe you are the one in denial and just want whatever is best for U
6) whirling D was the first skill that came to my mind and by saying u can use that i meant just use w/e block skill u want and no i dont GvG since its not my kind of play type
why must u look at everything from the "assassins are overpowered so lets neft them" point of view?

moriz · Nov 29, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

stop being stupid, and stop arguing about things you have no clue about.

narutards need not post. i was pretty clear on it, i believe.