Curse

moriz · Nov 23, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

this will be a more complete version of my suggestion here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=31

since the narutards have invaded the other thread and killed any meaningful discussion possible, i'm gonna move my thoughts and suggestions here.

the problem with assassins have been pointed out many times: if they can't instagib, they are useless. unfortunately, the only thing they CAN do with their current implementation is instagib. since everyone agrees (or at least those with a brain agrees) that such an ability is broken, the way to fix it is to nerf assassins until they can't do it... unfortunately such a fix will destroy them completely since they can't do anything else (other than teleport, but everyone can take /A and teleport just as well).

so i've been taking a look at the lead>offhand>dual attack system, i've found a way to improve upon it. instead of a strict system where you have to press the buttons in order for it to do anything, i believe the off-hand attacks can take on additional function outside of the chain. here are a few examples of what i mean:

falling spider
5e 8r
Must strike a knocked-down foe to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, Falling Spider strikes for +15...31 damage and target foe is Poisoned for 5...17 seconds. If it strikes a moving foe, this skill does not count as an off-hand attack, it does no damage, and target foe is knocked down for 3 seconds.

falling lotus strike
5e 12r
Must strike a knocked-down foe to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, you strike for +15...31 damage and gain 1...10 Energy. If it strike a moving foe, this skill does not count as an off-hand attack, it strikes for +1...10 damage, and you gain 0...8 Energy.

black spider strike
10e 12r
Must strike a Hexed foe to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5...17 damage and target foe is Poisoned for 5...17 seconds. If it does not strike a Hexed foe, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a non-moving foe, it does no damage, and target foe is Poisoned for 0...8 seconds.

jungle strike
10e .5c 10r
Must follow a Lead Attack to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...22 damage. If it hits a foe that was Crippled, it does +1...25 damage. If it does not follow a Lead Attack, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a moving foe with no allies nearby, it does no damage, and target foe is crippled for 5...12 seconds

temple strike
15e 20r
Must follow a Lead Attack to count as an off-hand attack. If this attack hits, target foe is Dazed and Blinded for 1...8 seconds, and if target foe is casting a Spell, that foe is interrupted. If it does not follow a Lead Attack, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a foe with no allies adjacent, it does no damage, and target foe is blinded for 5...12 seconds

i've bolded the changes i have in mind. i know the descriptions now look incredibly long-winded, but what i'm trying to propose should be clear: additional functionality for off-hands, outside of combos.

the benefits of such a change should be obvious. sins will gain additional utility at no cost to their skill slots. this change will put their utility up to the same level of warriors. at the same time, the "disable all other" condition prevents sins from loading up with a huge attack chain and mash them in order.

if this is implemented, we can safely take away the sin's instagib ability without destroying them completely.

thoughts/suggestions/critiques are welcome. narutards need not to post.

EDIT: removed the "disable all other" condition on leads, offhands, and duals.

moriz · Nov 24, 2007, 12:00 AM // 00:00

in case you are wondering: i am well aware that something like this is extremely difficult to implement and will likely never happen. however, this is the only way to fix assassins without erasing them completely and starting from scratch.

navymrgoodbar · Nov 24, 2007, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Too many nerfs = too many pissed off players. Take off the last bold statements in each to make the skills not completely useless. They might as well erase those skills if you want them THAT nerfed.

The first 2 bold statements I'm okay with.

/notsigned

moriz · Nov 24, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

you know, in the current system, if you do not use those skills in a chain, they do absolutely nothing. i'm suggesting that they SHOULD do something. this is a BUFF.

jaeharys targaryen · Nov 24, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

i like how you added offhand disabling to 3 offhands that are almost always used as the LAST offhand in the combo

offhand-trampling-FALLING X-duel

offhand-hoto-BLACK SPIDER-duel

gfg, tbh

theres absolutely no point to disabling those skills after the combo, all instagibs are confined by shadow pris'z recharge

/notsigned

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

I don't think your idea's are totally farfetch'd but some of them are a bit odd.

Temple strike disabling all off-hands for 20 second's is a bit step.
Also there is little reason to disable lead attacks, duals perhaps, but disabling lead attacks as they are now seems a tad foolish.

Your idea of having them work without having to follow the chain is something I've been pondering all day in school today. You probably don't want my feedback or anything so I will remain quiet for a bit, unless I strongly disagree with something.

Just go over your ideas a bit, I think you can improve on them a bit.
Another problem is that your suggestions destroys repeating Strike, which is something you should work around.

Coloneh · Nov 24, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

i believe the solution is shorter. it will, however make assassins very similar to warriors. give them a few high pressure options (we already have MS+DB), and spike chains. design the skills to function for shorter, faster recharging chains that do less damage. this makes the assassin more of a team player, if your warrior can pressure an enemy down to a little over half health your sin can step in and execute a quick spike. this spike would be recharged soon enough 7-12 seconds to be used quickly on another foe, but not so quick as to be broken.

Your offhand attack stsyem seems a bit complicated. I dont think the average GW player would be able to understand how to make an effective sin or even to defend against one.

moriz · Nov 24, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaeharys targaryen

i like how you added offhand disabling to 3 offhands that are almost always used as the LAST offhand in the combo

offhand-trampling-FALLING X-duel

offhand-hoto-BLACK SPIDER-duel

gfg, tbh

theres absolutely no point to disabling those skills after the combo, all instagibs are confined by shadow pris'z recharge

/notsigned

the point is to eliminate the offhand>dual>offhand>dual chains, so we can balance lead>offhand>dual without worrying about someone making a build that ignores the checks and balances. the ones i posted are examples only. if implemented, the same will be placed on all offhands.

and remember, it's "all OTHER offhands", so repeating strike will just keep recharging itself and continuously disables all other offhands.

Bobby2 · Nov 24, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Correct me if I'm wrong:

- Your suggestions turn Sins into Warriors with a lower Armour Value, but more general utility (mostly shutdown).

- If so, IYO which class should have highest DPS? Without the bonus damage of a chain, Sins' DPS drops to squat - and disabling for instance: all offhands on each offhands' secondary ability means it's impossible to chain after using even one of these. This seems quite harsh, so I'd rather see them implemented mostly on Dual Strikes (that leaves the option of, say, cycling Golden Fox Strike - Wild Strike for decent DPS).

Other than that, I can see the merit of such alterations. I could envision quite some uses as I read through your post, and I think it would promote intelligent skill synergy builds that are fun to abuse in their own right.
[skill]Palm Strike[/skill][skill]Blinding powder[/skill][skill]Unseen fury[/skill] gets old, and it's underpowered. Who runs high Shadow these days!

Having the Assassin remade in a more versatile way in GW2 is one of my greatest hopes.

moriz · Nov 24, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

For 1 your post makes no mention of Repeating strike.
Your post make it so that off-hands can be used without leads.

incorrect. i stated specifically that off-hands function as off-hands only if a condition was met, such as "must follow a lead attack", "must strike a knocked down foe". if that conditions was NOT met, and the secondary condition WAS met, then that off-hand performs its secondary function.

just pay attention to the bolded parts.

as for deadly arts spam: that should be nerfed to oblivion for obvious reasons, and shouldn't really factor into this particular discussion. also, instead of weakening the assassin, my ideas will STRENGTHEN them. instead of being buttonmashing spikers, assassins will be able to provide shutdown/condition utility. in a sense, they no longer NEED the instagib ability and still be viable characters.

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Ah I see what you mean now Moriz. However I do think the disability for Temple strike is a tad too high.
Although your most likely not interested, the idea I've been sitting on today for L-O-D. Is to create a new condition(although I was thinking it should create a blessing effect on them, so they can't remove it) called "Bad Form" Sin's would be able to activate skills out of chain, but doing so puts them in Bad form, which has its own penalty's (that I couldn't decide).

Anyhow, I was not talking about Deadly Paradox spam.
What I was saying is that if you recall before nightfall (before deadly paradox existed), Use of deadly arts was not high, infact most of the skill uses were vary narrow. Expose defenses and Siphon speed basically over shadowed everything, and if I remember Siphon strength was 15 energy sometime before nightfall.

The assassin's DPS most likely should not be as high as a warriors, do to shadow steps giving them a better range then them, and deadly arts giving them more utility.
The problem im trying to bring to light is that Shadow arts and Deadly arts, aren't great utility, and require a buff. This buff should happen after Deadly paradox is suitably nerfed.

Tyla · Nov 24, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

This buff should happen at the same time as Deadly paradox is suitably nerfed.

fixed imo

(12chars)

LightningHell · Nov 24, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

fixed imo

(12chars)

I'd go for "after", as it's better to observe what happens first and the power levels of each skill before adding a whole new lot of buffed skills.

Tyla · Nov 24, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I'd go for "after", as it's better to observe what happens first and the power levels of each skill before adding a whole new lot of buffed skills.

guess your right....SP sin is pretty much an instagib still.

moriz · Nov 24, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

deadly arts would've been a great support line, had the game been based on a 12 skill system. unfortunately, the game only allows 8 skills at a time, so whatever the deadly arts line provided was overshadowed by the more important attack chain.

that's also the fundamental reason why sins are so poorly balanced: it's as if it was designed for a game that allows 12 skills, instead of 8.

blakecraw · Nov 24, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

While I agree off>dual>off>dual is lame (I love your idea to recharge other offhands so that can't be used), I agree with navymrgoodbar that the "if not" clause on your fixes is bad news, since then you're left with a recharging offhand as opposed to an insta-recharged one for going out of sequence, no way to use a dual attack, and a very weak affect applied to your target. I like the idea of giving sins some use outside of combos, but I don't think your changes get the job done.

The only other problem I have is that it would kind of ruin moebius strike, seeing as you have to use an offhand to get to the dual which is of course needed to use moebius.

Poise · Nov 24, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

I need clarification. Are you proposing that each offhand has 2 possible functions, or 3?
1. As an offhand, meeting first req.
2. As a utility attack, meeting second req.
3. As a regular melee attack, meeting no req.

Example:

Quote:

falling spider
5e 8r
All your other off-hand attacks are disabled for 8 seconds. Must strike a knocked-down foe to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, Falling Spider strikes for +15...31 damage and target foe is Poisoned for 5...17 seconds. If it strikes a moving foe, this skill does not count as an off-hand attack, it does no damage, and target foe is knocked down for 3 seconds.

1. Hits KD'd foe. Deals +31 and poisons.
2. Hits moving foe. Does 0 damage and KD's.
3. Hits stationary, standing foe. Deals +31 and poisons.

Or does the skill miss if used without meeting either requirement?

moriz · Nov 24, 2007, 04:06 AM // 04:06

1: yes
2: yes
3: no. skill fails and behaves like a normal failed combo attack (that is, instant recharge and no effect).

btw, i'm toying with removing the "disable all other" condition. however, that's gonna promote people running the offhand>dual>offhand>dual attack chains, but now with additional utility ontop of the possible instagib.

LightningHell · Nov 24, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakecraw

While I agree off>dual>off>dual is lame (I love your idea to recharge other offhands so that can't be used), I agree with navymrgoodbar that the "if not" clause on your fixes is bad news, since then you're left with a recharging offhand as opposed to an insta-recharged one for going out of sequence, no way to use a dual attack, and a very weak affect applied to your target. I like the idea of giving sins some use outside of combos, but I don't think your changes get the job done.

The changes themselves are probably subject to further discussion and tweaking; it's probably the concept that's introduced that is important in this discussion.

Furthermore, knocking down someone for 3 seconds is something I hardly call "very weak".

Bobby2 · Nov 24, 2007, 05:16 AM // 05:16

You can't keep those traits apart when determining power level. It's the overall balance that we should be trying to better.