Curse

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Maybe, NOT buff sins since they're already retardedly powerful?

Dude, I missed it. Darn! Sins were overpowered and I missed it. Maybe not.

Let's look at it this way.

Name *one* class that cannot counter assassins. Go ahead. I dare ya.

Saying sins are imba would be like saying the War backbreaker spike is imba. Why aren't people complaining about that? I mean, they charge adrenaline *and* are doing pressure damage at the same time, then *whammo* and you're stuck on your behind for *4* seconds doing, rather literally, squat. Generally speaking a little ias on the wars part, and he can kill you before you stand up. Gee that's so imba. No, it's not. There are readily available blocks, blinds, interrupts, insidious parasite what have you to stop it. So could someone please explain why sins are overpowered, but wars who can kill you with backbreaker (and have more armor) are not?

Sigh, you just don't get it do you, just stop, no one wants to have to explain it over and over and OVER AND OVER again, so please. Go read posts about sin in the gladiator forum, there you will find your answer.

Sniffy · Nov 29, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

No I don't get it. I have read the gladiator forum. No one, anywhere I have searched, you or anyone else, has explained satisfactorily how sins are overpowered. I mean, if you or someone else can refute my argument, I'll shut up. Not only that, but I'll join your side for the progressive nerfing of assassins into oblivion. After that, how about we move on to Rangers?

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

No I don't get it. I have read the gladiator forum. No one, anywhere I have searched, you or anyone else, has explained satisfactorily how sins are overpowered. I mean, if you or someone else can refute my argument, I'll shut up. Not only that, but I'll join your side for the progressive nerfing of assassins into oblivion. After that, how about we move on to Rangers?

I didn't think assassins were IMBA, until I tried an IAS on one.

Once I put the IAS on 1 I went wow >.>.

Take the IAS from the sin, one less thing to complain about.
A sin with an IAS, hits extremely fast since assassin's pretty much have the fastest naturally attack speed in the game. This is harder for monks to prot/defend against because they see him come to them, the sin has already activated his Off-hand a split second after the warp, due to human reflex's the monk is now going to press RoF/guardian/Prot spirit... boom its on the floor because the assassin's hitting faster, Falling Spider or BSS, and then... BoS and Impale. They are dead.
Lets see the skills the assassin has used

O-D-O-D and impale, 5 skills for the killing, IAS, that he will not use in any way other than that spike >.> Thus a 1 trick pony >.> since once he's done that spike he goes away contributing nothing else to the game until his spike is ready.
Shadow Prison, not only did he jump from caster range to Melee in a split second.
He's snared you at the potency of a water snare, the best snares in the game.

That's really piss ass annoying/

If
1. Assassin's had no access to a IAS except Locust fury (which doesnt work on skills so not a problem) and critical agility (Pve only) Theres 1 problem dead.
2. If SP wasn't the potency of a water snare...another problem dead.
3. If the assassin wasn't solely using 5 skills all for 1 target and then slinks off because he knows he's now useless... another problem dead.

The assassin comes in, your dead, leaves and does nothing else for 17 seconds (it took 2.8 or so seconds to kill you)

SoJ sins.
Cannot be blocked, Knocks you on the floor about twice/more.
Degens you with poison, Armor ignoring spike (signet of toxic shock)
Deep wound from augury of death.
Armor ignoring from Signet of Judgement and KD.
about 80/90 damage to 60 AL target from DD spammed with very little interrupt time.
Deadly paradox.

Deadly paradox dies, this entire combo becomes Inferior.
Entangling Asp, common knowledge, its crap without paradox.
DD common knowledge, its not IMBA without paradox.
Signet of toxic shock common knowledge, its not imba without paradox.

Caster sin's with paradox have caused a problem as long as DP has existed.

Blinding surge Sins with BSurge Signet of shadows (more armor ignoring) and DW and! KD's (1 less) and armor ignoring spike from Toxic shock.

Lets look at the damage.

100 armor ignoring damage from Toxic Shock. -4 life degen (8 hp a second) from poison. 90 damage from DD. 35 damage from Blinding surge (and armor penetration, and possible AOE blind) and 90 damage spike from signet of shadows.
So far thats 300+ damage. Then we have Augury of death = DW thats another 100 damage. So thats 400 damage.
Then we have the fact that Entangling is a KD.

So for 2 seconds they are on their ass unable to do absolutely anything but a stance. Which are generally ineffective as its a spell and signet.
DP was 50% activation and recharge at that time so DD was already recharged.
so another 90 Damage. + in the 4/5 seconds this combo took you took 32/40 damage from Poison.

so with that thats 523/533 damage from the entire combo in which will recharge in about 5 seconds >.> So you can spike em again if they live.

THIS IS not counting that they could have iron palm..which will KD you again.

BSurge is dead now, but now there is SoJ, another KD and damage.

Notice how thats 523 damage in 4-5 seconds not counting iron palm which would make it about 562 damage?

Todays sin is pretty much JUST as potent.

The base hp you get is 480, this can be increased to 600, but sometimes people run 1 major a simple -35 hp loss so 565 hp.

Your combo kills them the SECOND it is done from entanglings poison....even less time.

Most of the time they were on their ass and could do absolutely nothing to stop you.
Thats why caster sins are imba.

Dagger sins....pretty much just as bad but no KD hell, and blockable and affected by blind.
Or they are blockable without Expose Defenses.
Then its just they can be blinded >.> 1 counter.
Other is prot...but they warped to you ... you had little time to see them, unless you were scanning the field...but your busy protting your team mates.

If your not a monk ....you won't heal that.

First IAS and DP die. Then we both sin utility.

Sniffy · Nov 29, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

It is not the assassin class that is broken. It is the assassin overabuse of other classes iass. All that would have to be done is make the speed dagger attack skills not affected by speed buffs (like I've said before), *not* a major nerf of the assassin class to compensate for those builds which use IAS. So, I guess yes, I was wrong, assassins are overpowered in that respect, but all that requires to fix is my suggestion or someone else's. The assassin class is not overpowered, in and of itself, it is it's combination with other classes IASs. Other than SoJ sins which I have already spoken against.
So are win in agreement or did I miss something? That basically everyone mainly thinks assassins are overpowered when combined with IAS, or do people actually think that assassins in general are overpowered?

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

It is not the assassin class that is broken. It is the assassin overabuse of other classes iass. All that would have to be done is make the speed dagger attack skills not affected by speed buffs (like I've said before), *not* a major nerf of the assassin class to compensate for those builds which use IAS. So, I guess yes, I was wrong, assassins are overpowered in that respect, but all that requires to fix is my suggestion or someone else's. The assassin class is not overpowered, in and of itself, it is it's combination with other classes IASs. Other than SoJ sins which I have already spoken against.
So are win in agreement or did I miss something? That basically everyone mainly thinks assassins are overpowered when combined with IAS, or do people actually think that assassins in general are overpowered?

I believe its the IAS and Deadly paradox that makes them IMBA.

Others say its all that AND shadow steps.

I don't think shadow steps other than shadow prison are truly dangerous.
Shadow prison being the strength of a water snare and teleportation is frightening.

Some say its the sin in general, which makes their points pointless since in general the sin has alot of useless skills and line.

Wastrels collapse is the worst elite in the game.
Mirror'd defence is a gamble thats not truly worth it.
etc.
Cept for Critical strikes/dagger mastery sin is pretty lame (save siphon speed)
If it wasn;t for IAS, DP and shadow steps.
The sin has nothing, IAS and DP we can live without, shadow steps too.
No reason to remove the ShaSte though.

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I'd like to make a few big changes to my Suggestions.

1) All IMS than are more than 33% will be reduced to 33% Apart from Dash.
2) Critical strikes will give an extra 1% IMS to all these stances for every point in the attribute (eg, at 12 CS, you get an extra 12%, fo all 33% become 45%, a 25% becomes 37% etc)

-This is mainly to preven abuse by secondary proffessions, and buff it up further for assassins. And give CS something that isn't Luck based.

3) Shadow Prison now interrupts and cripples, the recharge is 10 seconds.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

>.> no.

Shadow prison interrupt and cripple >.>

Just make it a longer duration version of Dark prison with less recharge.

Ergo 20 recharge 25% snare probably last for like 16 seconds at 12 Deadly arts =P

If I cannot escape from using Dash on any skill that is not from Ice mastery. Im pissed.

Shuuda · Nov 29, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

>.> no.

Shadow prison interrupt and cripple >.>

Just make it a longer duration version of Dark prison with less recharge.

Ergo 20 recharge 25% snare probably last for like 16 seconds at 12 Deadly arts =P

If I cannot escape from using Dash on any skill that is not from Ice mastery. Im pissed.

Well, the interruption is just to make it on bar with other elite crippling skills. Remember than under my suggestion it is an IMS.

In fact, with an interrupt, in theory it could be a great skill for splits. It interrupts troll, gets you places fast, stop people going fast.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Well, the interruption is just to make it on bar with other elite crippling skills.

You mean like YAA

LightningHell · Nov 29, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

I don't think shadow steps other than shadow prison are truly dangerous.
Shadow prison being the strength of a water snare and teleportation is frightening.

Shadow steps, while not being "imba", remove the positioning aspect from melee.

Hence.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Shadow steps, while not being "imba", remove the positioning aspect from melee.

Hence.

to an extent.
Shadow steps do have their limitations however, while that probably means nothing to you guys. Im just stating that.
If its not imba >.> then lets salsa (god im random)

Bobby2 · Nov 30, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

IAS after teleporting AND snaring is overpowered considering the dmg and speed of Sin chains. But without even one element, I think not.

Just disable stances on SP (DP too, taking Black Mantis Thrust into account) and it's fixed.

LightningHell · Nov 30, 2007, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

to an extent.
Shadow steps do have their limitations however, while that probably means nothing to you guys. Im just stating that.

To such an extent that most shadow steps are pretty gimped, and the ones that are used are omgimba.

ensoriki · Nov 30, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

To such an extent that most shadow steps are pretty gimped, and the ones that are used are omgimba.

Most people also don't realize shadow shadowsteps ARE affected by body blocking.
Shadow steps only work if the person can actually walk to that location, if something is blocking him from getting there, he cannot shadow step there, under any circumstances. Or at least thats how it has been for me.

I dont think many are imba except for perhaps Shadow Prison.

And my distaste for that skill derives from the potency of the snare.

MercenaryK · Nov 30, 2007, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Shadow Steps allow me to by pass the angry frontliners, typically the warriors and dervishes, and any other obstacle that may hinder my task of pressuring/killing my target.

Please, don't make me run through them. My only survivability is my 70AL armor and a monk behind me that I hope doesn't get interrupted.

Ditch the IMS, and Critical Strikes makes me run faster? While we're at it, let's give Shadow Arts the passive ability that per attribute there's a .5% chance per attribute of a hack deleting the Sin character, and Deadly Arts a 2% chance per attribute of changing our account passwords.

And ensoriki, is that true? I mean, it seems like it isn't right, not to my experience, or what I've seen. I've watched Sins teleport through walls to get to their target... O-O

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 30, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

I think Shadow Prison should heal you as well. Then you can have a snare, a hex, a step, and a heal all in one! Since 5 seconds were added onto the recharge, completely ruining the skill and making it unusable, it should also give you a 33% IAS enchantment as well. Then you don't have to worry about a secondary profession, AND you can use all those silly Lotus skills too!

/end sarcasm

No, seriously, it's the bar compression that breaks that stupid skill. More specifically, the snare part.

Every sin bar has to start with either a knockdown or a snare just to get the target to sit still for you. Otherwise, you get kited into a failed gib.

At this point, I would almost rather have the skill knockdown instead of adding a hex snare.

Bobby2 · Nov 30, 2007, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Almost? I'd die for that. KD is snaring AND interrupting, gimme dat.

Shuuda · Nov 30, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

You mean like YAA

I was thinking more on the lines of Crippling Shot, but YAA comes into this aswell.

Quote:

Please, don't make me run through them. My only survivability is my 70AL armor and a monk behind me that I hope doesn't get interrupted.

Ditch the IMS, and Critical Strikes makes me run faster? While we're at it, let's give Shadow Arts the passive ability that per attribute there's a .5% chance per attribute of a hack deleting the Sin character, and Deadly Arts a 2% chance per attribute of changing our account passwords.

My whole idea helps assassins self survive better, with a little something called KITING. Giving the effect to shadow arts would make it rather imba, there is a good reason why only Primary attributes get the effects like that.

LightningHell · Nov 30, 2007, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Almost? I'd die for that. KD is snaring AND interrupting, gimme dat.

Replace "interrupting" with "not being able to do anything", and that's pretty accurate.

Quote:

And ensoriki, is that true? I mean, it seems like it isn't right, not to my experience, or what I've seen. I've watched Sins teleport through walls to get to their target... O-O

As long as the gate is open.

Which hardly matters if you're talking about usual flagstands since you don't get lots of body walls anyway. It's more relevant in ganking.

Quote:

I dont think many are imba except for perhaps Shadow Prison.

I should rephrase; I don't mean imba, but gimmick.

Shadow stepping gives a melee character the ability to bypass much of the positioning needed for melee, a major part of playing a melee character. Hence, most of them are gimped enough that they're unplayable, and the few ones that are playable are imba (i.e. Shadow Prison).

Red_Dragon56 · Nov 30, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

I don't see why Shadow Prison HAS to be a shadow step AND a snare. Why not just make it a snare that gives you speed. Oh wait, we have that, Siphon Speed. Well make it an Elite Siphon speed then. It's really the fact that not only does it snare but it doesn't allow even nearby monk to remove it. Either that or give it some sort of condition first. (ex. If target is above 75% health he/she moves whatever% slower.)

However since it hasn't been fixed I always bring [skill]hex breaker[/skill] if I have a Mesmer secondary/primary and know I am going into assassin territory.