Curse

Super Igor · May 19, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

For the most part, it's a pressure build. Yes, it has spiking capabilities, and spikes when necessary. But it's going to be pressuring more than spiking.

Actually it spikes and pressures inbetween that, the thing is it does both best.

Red Sand · May 19, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

The focus of those playing Assassin on dealing damage to the exclusion of survival/utility skills has also hurt the image of the class in the eyes of the community (the failure of Anet to give sins an alternative role is a significant contributor).

I think the role that assassins were given was that of a high DPS support role, but most sins don't do that. They overextend and get killed, unless they build for survival, then they last a while, but don't do the damage they can do.

This weekend, I was in an AB and I swear, there was this one assassin that killed me three or four times. He didn't really engage me in melee either. He'd kite off a squishy or kite me around a bit, but he must have toggled targets constantly, because if someone got down to 50 percent of their health bar, BAMF, another teammate down.

I was impressed, not with his ability to do so much damage, because that's what assassins were made for, but with his presence of mind and patience. He definately knew when to strike and make it count.

There are skilled assassins out there, but I gotta say I like them better when they are not ganking me.

Bobby2 · May 19, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Actually it spikes and pressures inbetween that, the thing is it does both best.

So here's why I said

"Shock Axe > Assassin class"

earlier. The spike is comparable in strength to that of a utility Sin (it'd be interesting to match up a Shock Axe's 'chain' DPS with that of a Shattersin).

Now... consider the package (I mean AL

)

Nowai Shock Axes are cool like me tho

moriz · May 19, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

a shock axe has a maximum sustained DPS of around 55-65. i'm quite sure a shatter sin, even without an IAS, can easily top that.

the whole assassin vs warrior debate got me thinking... while it's true that warriors are more dangerous overall than assassins in pvp, that isn't always the case.

the effectiveness of a warrior (for example, a shock axe) is variable. for the sake of clarity, let's rate the warrior's effectives between 30% to 100%. how a given warrior performs on the battlefield, if we assume the build is a shock axe, greatly depends on the player and the situation.

the effectiveness of an assassin (any assassin build) is constant. it can either perform at 0% (in the case it is completely shut down or not spiking) to about 80% of the warrior's effectiveness. this is caused by the rigid nature of assassin builds. unless the player is an absolute idiot, the assassin will perform roughly the same every time.

this leads to some pretty interesting applications. the assassin is great in the hands of an average player, because he's gonna get consistently good performance all the time. however, at 80% of a shock axe's maximum effectiveness, that may or may not be game breaking. in a critical situation, an assassin will rarely make the difference between a close call and a victory.

for the shock axe, it's best you stick your most skilled player on it, since he can potentially tap into the large maximum effectiveness and win games for you. however, if you stick any average joe onto a shock axe, he's probably gonna trudge along at 50% effectiveness, which is not what you want.

there's also the notion of threat level. a well-played shock axe is dangerous almost all the time. its strong KD ability makes for an unpredictable and nasty opponent even with no adrenaline.

the assassin, on the other hand, is only a threat some of the time. a typical spike assassin is only very dangerous 6 seconds out of every 30 seconds. if the combo is working, they are more dangerous than a shock axe. if the combo is recharging, you can almost completely ignore them.

Bobby2 · May 19, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

if the combo is recharging, you can almost completely ignore them.

Irrelevant for Shattersins... or any utility build (meaning: not just a rigid chain on a stick). The latter suffer in the power department but make up for it with innate resilience to common counters as there is no 'the' combo.

As for skill level, the best comparison imo is between
[skill]bull's strike[/skill] and [skill]leaping mantis sting[/skill]
Of course the lead usually comes right after a well-timed (!) Shadow Walk wheras the War has to perform this while playing pressure but I think they require the same form of anticipation.
Why [skill]shock[/skill] would take more skill than any other old interrupt is beyond me.

Shock Wars lack a certain luxury Assassins have - namely to read opponents while not being in the thick of the action. A Sin can lock on a target and wait for the exact right moment - a War has to anticipate on this while wailing and being wailed upon. Good Wars are harder to play than good Sins, but I believe this comes down more to positional awareness than anything else (eg somehow knowing when to switch targets).

Super Igor · May 20, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

"Shock Axe > Assassin class"

Although this comment is wrong I do agree with Bobbys idea...yes, Wariors, generally, in high end PvP are better then Assassins, by that i mean only GvG and HA though, why? Because although their spiking ability is considerebly lower to that of an Assassin, their DPS...no doubt is much higher, to deal good damage warriors dont rely on anything, DPS rom just swinging their wepon under IAS is good, they also have a high AL, very high AL that makes them rarely targeted unless they are being linebaked. Without considerring any skillsets, this is enough for a Warrior to be favored, why? Because those factors allow it to pressure, to pressure the opponent without worrying much about themselves, they also can spike, not as deadly, but still, shock axes are usually, used primerely for spiking and pressuring, pretty much like a hammer warrior, they are not 100% pressure though, imo, if we are talking pressure [dragon slash] spammer sword warrior is much better. Anyway, this why they are used over Assassin in the frontline...I think.

Though Assassins can spike, deal huge dps in low time, the also move fast and jump around, this why they are so beloved for ganking npc in ghs, they arent bashed by 5-8 players...in theory.... they just come and start silently killing, without being even targetted much. good exmple was the old recall gank and now the verulance/frag gank, they come, kill fast, and run away...basically.

It TA Shattersins are goooodly, exp Shattersin can do magic there. Generally, every pressureish Assassin bar needs strong man hands.

Tyla · May 20, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Why [skill]shock[/skill] would take more skill than any other old interrupt is beyond me.

It's because it's quite versatile, really. Not only for interrupting, but can be using for quarterknocking, spikes, interrupt and can shut someone down for 3 whole seconds!

And Igor, I wouldn't take a D-Slash spammer, as for the same reasons Assassin combos get screwed up. Blocks ruin it.

The ability to spike and pressure is boom.
A 'Sin can't pressure as good as a Warrior because 'Sins rely on chains to pressure, which can be D-Shotted and / or miss.
And a Warrior auto-attacks with free pressure.

GourangaPizza · May 20, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Assassins have better mobility; hence they are better spikers since they move instantaneous to desired target and unleash their chain. Also their spike comes with the option of a few seconds of immobility(crippled, knockdown) or handicapped(blind, dazed). Given that the assassin is the one of the few professions to be capable to apply all conditions available in GW except disease and crack armor, they can also adapt to the role of insta-disabling to make the target extra squishy for allies.

The only drawback to the assassin is similar to any spell-casting professions, if they are not unleashing their combos, they as good as useless.

Tyla · May 20, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

I herd Warriors, Dervs and any other melee can go /A and use a shadowstep aswell...

Super Igor · May 20, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

target switching ftw, D-Slash is kind of a pure pressure build, and they take it from time to time, if you see that something can block it, dont use it/switch targets. I do agree that if D-Slash is blocked it wont be very pleasant, on ther hand you still have [Shock]/[Bull's strike].

Also, quarterknocks, rememmbered the word finally.

Tyla · May 20, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

And when they get a sneaky Guardian, or have Aegis up and it isn't Mirrored?

40/20/20 staves.

GourangaPizza · May 20, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

And its always the same old Deaths Charge or AoD.
Assassins have the luxury of having access to better shadowsteps; Beguiling Haze, Shadow Prison.
Speaking of spiking, nobody cares to mention the dervish?

Super Igor · May 20, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And when they get a sneaky Guardian, or have Aegis up and it isn't Mirrored?

40/20/20 staves.

Esc, and you will see the animation too wont you, so just cancel you action, swtich targets.

Tyla · May 20, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

You can't cancel attack skills unless you open your inventory, and double click the weapon.

Even then, when you cancel it, your adrenaline goes boom.

Super Igor · May 20, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

osht...

/12 chars

Kaleban · May 20, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by GourangaPizza

And its always the same old Deaths Charge or AoD.
Assassins have the luxury of having access to better shadowsteps; Beguiling Haze, Shadow Prison.
Speaking of spiking, nobody cares to mention the dervish?

Hate to be a stickler but last I recalled, there are no shadowstep skills in Critical Strikes, which means ANY class whether A/x or x/A has access to all the different shadowsteps?

Tyla · May 20, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Well the only shadowsteps really used are: Death's Charge and Shadow Walk.

Shadowstepping is either used offensively or defensively, and doesn't need attribute points.

And when you can run a stronger elite, SP and BH are just redundant compared. In terms of energy efficiency and not being elite.

Krill · May 20, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

for the shock axe, it's best you stick your most skilled player on it, since he can potentially tap into the large maximum effectiveness and win games for you. however, if you stick any average joe onto a shock axe, he's probably gonna trudge along at 50% effectiveness, which is not what you want.

The only way to get better at warrior is to play it. Average Joe will always be average Joe if he runs lazy 1-2-3 sin builds night after night. It sucks to lose and feel like you let your team down, but that's the only way to improve at difficult positions.

Kaleban · May 20, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Well the only shadowsteps really used are: Death's Charge and Shadow Walk.

Shadowstepping is either used offensively or defensively, and doesn't need attribute points.

And when you can run a stronger elite, SP and BH are just redundant compared. In terms of energy efficiency and not being elite.

Well that's not the class or skills' fault is it? Nope, its player choice.

And really if you're going with a 12-12-3 split for your build, you could get a 2 second slowdown with Dark Prison to allow an easier spike, or a 92 point heal from Death's Charge, or an 8 second on revert Deep Wound from Shadow Fang, or a 10 second delayed KD from Scorpion Wire, etc., etc.

Of course, there's always the ubiquitous Shadow Walk-Dash combo, all I'm trying to point out is that even with bare minimal investment in the relevant tertiary attribute, the various shadowsteps have quite a decent utility, just depends on what effect you want.

Bobby2 · May 20, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Shadow Walk is only viable on Dervs besides Sins. Warriors need their stance for IAS (at least IMO)