Curse

petrorabbit · May 16, 2008, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

One extra skill to get into the chain. Golden Fang Strike if you're not using Golden Phoenix as your lead, when switching targets under Critical Agility doesn't really going to make that much difference to be honest. Also in this case you could say one less Moebius Strike, which doesn't do AoE, in which case the Deep Wound would be beneficial.

fixed maybe?

moriz · May 16, 2008, 02:20 PM // 14:20

there isn't enough room to fit another offhand in the build, so golden fang strike is out.

also, if a moebius strike is all it takes to kill the target, then that's good. i'll have a fully charged combo ready for the next target, and it doesn't eat up a skill slot.

either way, a deep wound skill is not needed in the build.

petrorabbit · May 16, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

There probably is no need for DW if your goal is to Death Blossom spam. But vs single targets, the DW does speed up the kill significantly. Maybe let a derv or war in the group be the DW spammer, if you want an extra slot for utility.

dicecube · May 16, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

deep wound in pve is unnecessary on a DB/MS bar. On the otherhand, it's extremely viable on a AP bar.

shru · May 16, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Wouldn't deepwound actualy hurt your damage ouput?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the goal of a MS/DB build to spam DB as much as possible? So if you're killing your target faster through higher single target dps (deepwound) you're spending more time restarting your chain, and effectively hurting the dps DB could be producing (with proper positioning)
ofc this is different verse high priority targets (healers and bosses)

Unreal Havoc · May 16, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

fixed maybe?

No the assumption aas made that the player was using Golden Phoenix to get straight into the AoE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Wouldn't deepwound actualy hurt your damage ouput?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the goal of a MS/DB build to spam DB as much as possible? So if you're killing your target faster through higher single target dps (deepwound) you're spending more time restarting your chain, and effectively hurting the dps DB could be producing (with proper positioning)
ofc this is different verse high priority targets (healers and bosses)

This is assuming your tanking and holding aggro for the whole team. For that straight into MS/DB is far more beneficial. Personally I just use it to spam double strikes on my target, the AoE is just a bonus to me. Hence why I pack Deep Wound, because it suits my playing style.

petrorabbit · May 16, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

No the assumption aas made that the player was using Golden Phoenix to get straight into the AoE.

Odd, the way i read it, it sounds like you recommend bringing [Golden Fang Strike] when [Golden Phoenix Strike] is your lead. Problem is, GPS is an offhand, so what lead attack is going to trigger GFS? If you're assuming to bring GFS with a lead, you weren't very clear on that, considering you said to bring "one extra skill".

Not trying to bash your typos and whatever, just pointing out the lack of clarity.

moriz · May 16, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

he probably meant [golden fox strike] instead.

petrorabbit · May 16, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

^ maybe, hence why i said not using [Golden Phoenix Strike].

Unreal Havoc · May 16, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Basically as used in the following build over taking just Golden Phoenix Strike.

[build prof=A/any name="Death Blossom" dag=12+1 cri=12+1+1][Critical Agility][Critical Eye][Unsuspecting Strike][Golden Fang Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Save Yourselves][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Which is a common MS/DB build run nowadays.

dicecube · May 16, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

This is assuming your tanking and holding aggro for the whole team.

do you recommend a sin to be tanking for the entire team? (excluding shadowform tank)

Unreal Havoc · May 16, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

[QUOTE=dicecube]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

This is assuming your tanking and holding aggro for the whole team.QUOTE]

do you recommend a sin to be tanking for the entire team? (excluding shadowform tank)

Excluding a Shadow Form Tank? Not in the slightest, hence my point.

Super Igor · May 16, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

you never, ever, EVUR tank as an Assassin!

Niether Crit Agility or crit Defences give you tanking power, you deal damage, lots of it, so protect you Assassin ass till aggro is settled then kill everything, and dont rush into the mobs without flat/longbow aggroing and sending you minion wall in first and die...

Super Igor · May 16, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

OH please. Compare
[skill]finish him[/skill] and [skill]impale[/skill]
Impale is cheaper, just as unblockable, with the downside of having to follow up on a Dual (like Shattering isn't going to hit. srsly.) but it doesn't chew a PvE slot. My idea of playing a Shattersin:
[skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]shattering assault[/skill][skill]impale[/skill]TAB.
So imho it doesn't really matter if the DW could be applied at any moment between chain attacks.
btw: Impale doesn't ruin a MS-DB chain either.

Oh lease Bobee!!!

Dont be funneh, [finish him] is DEFO better then Impale.

You dont need dw much untill the thing you are bashing is about to die soon anyway, in this case, sheer damage and activation time matters.

How come you say that and Instant, HUGE armor ingoring damage, unblockable, uninterruptable skill that can be used in the middle of any action is inferior to some crappy long casting low elemental damage skill that gets interrupted and can only be used after a dual?? You are so...so...so much wrong mate, terribly, terribly wrong. You also boast about [finish him] costing ~6 more energy, I tell you mate, if you, as an Assassin expirience any energy problems then sorry, you are bad at the profession and need to reconsider something. I dont care about the pve slot, if I take the shout it means I need a good finishing blow,a dn it does the job good, especially on a shattersin, I will not waste a slot on my bar for some crap like [Impale] on max 6-7 DA that wont do a damn to anything on HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

on second thought, any deep wound on a moebius sin is quite bad. why? because that means 1 less death blossom, which means potentially a lot less aoe damage.

not to mention, the build certainly don't need a deep wound. it does enough damage to plow through most monsters in one go.

<3 to you moriz. (not rrrly but you get the point)

Exactly..again...the same thing i was saying about earlyer, dw makes the thing you bash with MS?DB die faster, you need everything to die pretty much at once without swapping targets much.

dicecube · May 16, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

you never, ever, EVUR tank as an Assassin!

Niether Crit Agility or crit Defences give you tanking power, you deal damage, lots of it, so protect you Assassin ass till aggro is settled then kill everything, and dont rush into the mobs without flat/longbow aggroing and sending you minion wall in first and die...

my thoughts exactly.. I didn't get why he put assassin and tanking together in the same sentence

Super Igor · May 16, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicecube

I didn't get why he put assassin and tanking together in the same sentence

Theorycrafting went too far maybe?

Bobby2 · May 16, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

You are so...so...so much wrong mate, terribly, terribly wrong.

'I'm never wrong, people just misunderstand.'

I never, ever said [skill]finish him[/skill] was inferior to [skill]impale[/skill]. My argument against FH! was that it is only a tiny bit more powerful than a skill we DON'T have to spend a PvE slot on. And Impale isn't crap - DW for 5 energy = good, the short duration at low DA doesn't really matter as it should be about a finishing skill anyway.

Super Igor · May 16, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

'I'm never wrong, people just misunderstand.'

I never, ever said [skill]finish him[/skill] was inferior to [skill]impale[/skill]. My argument against FH! was that it is only a tiny bit more powerful than a skill we DON'T have to spend a PvE slot on.

You infact were and is and can be wrong mate, terribly....wrong.

By saying that FH! is not worth taking over Impale you have said that it is infact highly inferior to it, It was wrong, wilst you are clearly not knowing something and should fix it.

FH! is infact highly.....highly superior to Impale.....the armor ignoring instant damage it deals is far greater then elemental damage Impale can deal at a such low DA level you can afford to use it at, it is also...i will say it again not armor ignoring which will render it even less powerfull. casting time, FH! doesnt have one, Impale is one second cast, it is long, it will be interrupted if something is able to do it in pve it will take long to apply dw with it and it will interrupt you chain, in that perior a lot of things could be done by fast paced mobs on hard mode. energy difference, meh, there isnt one, for assassiun who never has energy problems there is no difference at whether the skill he uses is 4 or 10 energy.

So you see, no matter how you put it, no matter how you will turn inside out in front of this debate, you still cant prove FH! to be inferior to Impale. Lets just compare:

There is no energy issues for a sin this way there is no matter about whever the skill is 4 or 10 energy.

this way, for a same recharge time skill you get more damage, faster activation, more conditions, no risks which makes FH! a MUCH greater finishing move to use, and it is worth spoending a pve skill slot for such a finishing move if I would need such rather then wasting a skill slot for Impale that clearly wont do its job well, and if you dont have a free pve slot to use for FH! then you shouldnt take any of such skills at all OR take [Twisting Fangs] which will again, do a better job then Impale.

Kaleban · May 16, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

There's an exceedingly simple reason why [skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] is inferior to [skill]Impale[/skill], and that is FH! has the condition that the target be under 50% health.

Since we're talking Shattersin atm and its use of DW when compared to a MS-DB sin who gets more mileage by forgoing DW, it can be safely assumed that after the first combo, an enemy may not be under 50% health. However, using Impale, you get unconditional damage and DW, which makes the next use of the combo a possible killer.

You also don't take into account the possibility that a monk is healing the target, keeping you from getting it under 50% health, making FH! completely and utterly useless. However, with Impale, you get the condition and damage at any point after you fire off Shatter.

The difference between FH! and Impale is similar to the difference between MS-DB and Shatter. On one hand, you get great damage and can steamroll enemies when conditions are met, on the other you get versatility and reliability. In fact, since the "under 50% health" condition is ALSO found on [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] its obvious that FH! has more parity with that build than a Shattersin. In fact, FH! can be useful on a MS-DB sin who's facing boss packs, using the boss to kill off adjacent minions from DB AoE, then hitting the boss with FH! to, well, finish him.

petrorabbit · May 16, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

...snip
There's an exceedingly simple reason why [skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] is inferior to [skill]Impale[/skill], and that is FH! has the condition that the target be under 50% health.

The condition is easily met especially with a party of 8, and a target being beaten down by another warrior or getting blasted by a nuker. As said before, Shattersin DPS is not garbage, but for some reason many people think it is because it has inferior dps to MS/DB. In fact, most assassin builds have inferior DPS to MS/DB. The 50% health condition is very easily met, especially with a shattersin that is capable of removing prots and stances.

As said before, Impale's damage can be mitigated because its elemental damage. It's 1 second activation time makes it susceptable to interupts, and yes it is likely to happen since many ranger and warrior mobs do have interrupts and knockdowns. Lastly, to make Impale be anywhere near effective to Finish Him, you need to invest points into deadly arts, which means you have 1 less rank in Dagger Mastery.