Curse

Unreal Havoc · May 15, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

You dont need to spam finishing blows, things die nearly at once or take some time to die so your finishing blow rehcrges anyway, energy management doesnt take up amn extra slot as you main attribut is already an energy management, i agree that [twisting fangs] has a better synergy with you bar but its for that bar, generally [finish him] is a more powerfull skill and is better choice for other templates.

I disagree on some of this statement, but at least you now agree about the synergy of TF compared to FH on a MS/DB sin.

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You dont need to spam dw all the time, it helps but is not a complete must.

Already gone over this one, you don't need to, no one is saying to, but it helps to pack it and is very beneficial.

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Not praiseing it, rather defending it.

Why? No one is saying its a bad skill, just questioning its synergy on a MS/DB bar when you can use other skills that are far more benficial and synergise better.

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I said to use two offhands, taking gfs and wild, you strip enchies first, then apply dw, or apply it right away if there are none of the things that bock, they do it sometimes and it works, the combo is short anyway.

Pointless, you may aswell just take Impale or Finish Him to be honest rather than running two offhands. Finish Him would be a great compliment to a Shattersin in PvE imo, use it when you like at the same recharge time as Impale with more damage and no need to spec into Deadly Arts or sacrifice a skill slot to take another offhand. Everything you have said about this skill that IS good suits the Shattersin perfectly. Why? Because it aids the Shattersin in the job its brought along for... preparing a target to get smashed to bits!

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Cracked armor is used to nullify defensive sets in PvP.

Not PvP, this is a PvE discussion.

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In PvE mobs have high armor level, but itsa not the point, [finish him] if just another good way to apply dw, even for an assassin, this what i am talking about.

True I did completely disregard that point, but I still disagree with its synergies on a MS/DB chain due to the lack of recharge, etc. It would be better in a Shattersin or Fevered Dreams sin skillbar imo.

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Oh and Havoc, its turns out the same as the oooooold argument we had about resurrect being worst res ingame (you were saying it was good

), just before i was running you to sanctum cay rememmber?

Actually if you remember right, I said it was the best Res I had available. I normally always run Rebirth, Sunspear Rebirth Signet, or Flesh of my Flesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

YES! Someone agrees with me! /dance

/dance

Super Igor · May 15, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I disagree on some of this statement, but at least you now agree about the synergy of TF compared to FH on a MS/DB sin.

I have never disagreed on that it has synergy with MS/DB, i was doubting whether it is so much needed or if it is a best choice there is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreeeeeel Havuk

Already gone over this one, you don't need to, no one is saying to, but it helps to pack it and is very beneficial.

if you dont need to spam it all the time [finish him] would do good too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Why? No one is saying its a bad skill, just questioning its synergy on a MS/DB bar when you can use other skills that are far more benficial and synergise better.

It doesnt have as much synergy as dagger atack with MS/DB but it has some good points Ive gone over already. It is cool to shout such things as an Assassin too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal havoc

Pointless, you may aswell just take Impale or Finish Him to be honest rather than running two offhands. Finish Him would be a great compliment to a Shattersin in PvE imo, use it when you like at the same recharge time as Impale with more damage and no need to spec into Deadly Arts or sacrifice a skill slot to take another offhand. Everything you have said about this skill that IS good suits the Shattersin perfectly.

With exactly the same "Pointless" this current debate started, now you are saying it is after all not as pointless. GFS is decent on a Shattersin, this way you can apply dw faster and spam it more often if you want, you dont always have things blocking too, so it is a strong variant. You strip all of the defences and then applly dw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

True I did completely disregard that point, but I still disagree with its synergies on a MS/DB chain due to the lack of recharge, etc. It would be better in a Shattersin or Fevered Dreams sin skillbar imo.

Still decent, even good!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Actually if you remember right, I said it was the best Res I had available. I normally always run Rebirth, Sunspear Rebirth Signet, or Flesh of my Flesh.

You said FoMFs health loss was a killah for the party and ressing someone with 25% hp and no energy was better.

/dance

Unreal Havoc · May 15, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

With exactly the same "Pointless" this current debate started, now you are saying it is after all not as pointless. GFS is decent on a Shattersin, this way you can apply dw faster and spam it more often if you want, you dont always have things blocking too, so it is a strong variant. You strip all of the defences and then applly dw.

But with Finish Him you prepare the target with Deep Wound and Cracked Armour aswell as stripping all their defenses and having better damage, while keeping it all unblockable, no? As you said, spamming Deep Wound isn't nessacary just helpful (the tables can turn

). In this scenario I think that Finish Him would be more beneficial to a Shattersin that prepares targets for the party to kill.

However this debate is going nowhere and lets be straight, we wont agree because we both play differently and take different approachs to PvE. Now the debate is starting to get more about opinion than about fact which will just kill the debate. Agree to disagree?

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You said FoMFs health loss was a killah for the party and ressing someone with 25% hp and no energy was better.

Sarcasm Igor, sarcasm. Even I'm not that dumb. Lol. The best way to use Resurrect imo is for Death Levelling pets, other than that I wouldnt use it unless I had to (ie: newly rolled character I haven't bothered to buy skills for yet). However this isn't really about Assassins now so lets stay on topic.

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/dance

Kaleban · May 15, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

I have never disagreed on that it has synergy with MS/DB, i was doubting whether it is so much needed or if it is a best choice there is.

[skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] sucks on an Assassin, period. Why? Because it has no synergy with any build. A 10 energy shout cuts into your pool pretty decently number one, and since its a shout there's no recharge from zealous or a chance on critical hits. The assassin has many superior DW applicating skills, that can be used in both PvE and PvP.

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if you dont need to spam it all the time [finish him] would do good too.

No it would not. Impale doesn't need to be spammed, nor does Twisting Fangs, especially in Moebius builds with more than one dual attack. They are used situationally, and have better parity with the rest of the assassin skill set.

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It doesnt have as much synergy as dagger atack with MS/DB but it has some good points Ive gone over already. It is cool to shout such things as an Assassin too.

The "good points" you've gone over do not work on a sin. On a Paragon, who can actually benefit from the Shout e-management, yes, it has synergy, but the Assassin does not have Leadership. The only time I put [skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] on a sin skill bar is generally a solo farming build that doesn't even use dagger attacks!

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With exactly the same "Pointless" this current debate started, now you are saying it is after all not as pointless. GFS is decent on a Shattersin, this way you can apply dw faster and spam it more often if you want, you dont always have things blocking too, so it is a strong variant. You strip all of the defences and then applly dw.

Obviously, having the 4 second recharge and DW capability of [skill]Golden Fang Strike[/skill] is valuable to a Shattersin, but most Moebius builds which this thread is about profit more from Wild Strike to remove block stances, and while the lack of DW allows the target to live longer, it also allows for more [skill]Death Blossom[/skill] spammage.

In the final equation, [skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] is no bueno an any assassin build, shy of solo farming.

petrorabbit · May 15, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

[skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] sucks on an Assassin, period. Why? Because it has no synergy with any build. A 10 energy shout cuts into your pool pretty decently number one, and since its a shout there's no recharge from zealous or a chance on critical hits. The assassin has many superior DW applicating skills, that can be used in both PvE and PvP.

When it comes to [Finish Him] vs [Twisting Fangs], the energy return is neglegible, especially in a shattersin build with 13 CS, and zealous daggers. Finish Him does have a cool down, so 10 energy every 15 seconds is not going hurt you especially with the aforementioned stats and daggers.

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No it would not. Impale doesn't need to be spammed, nor does Twisting Fangs, especially in Moebius builds with more than one dual attack. They are used situationally, and have better parity with the rest of the assassin skill set.

Wouldn't Finish Him be used in this same regard? As of now, [Finish Him] is the superior choice to [Impale] in PvE because it doesn't not have a casting time, doesn't require points in DA to be effective, and also adds a cracked armor conditions. The benefits of cracked armor have already been covered so we won't need to repeat that here. Since [Impale] renerfing to 1 second activation time, [Finish Him] instant activation makes it more appealing.

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The "good points" you've gone over do not work on a sin. On a Paragon, who can actually benefit from the Shout e-management, yes, it has synergy, but the Assassin does not have Leadership. The only time I put [skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] on a sin skill bar is generally a solo farming build that doesn't even use dagger attacks!

Hmm, maybe you are unfamiliar with what Leadership does. The energy gain is only for shouts that affect allies. Finish Him does not affect allies in the same way [Go for the Eyes] does, so therefore does not back up your claim. I do agree, Finish him is great for sliver armor/shadowform farming.

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Obviously, having the 4 second recharge and DW capability of [skill]Golden Fang Strike[/skill] is valuable to a Shattersin, but most Moebius builds which this thread is about profit more from Wild Strike to remove block stances, and while the lack of DW allows the target to live longer, it also allows for more [skill]Death Blossom[/skill] spammage.

Although I agree that [Golden Fox Strike] > [Wild Strike] is more beneficial to a Moebius build, I still don't think you should let a target live longer just so your AoE effect from [Death Blossom] can be used for 1 more cycle.

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In the final equation, [skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] is no bueno an any assassin build, shy of solo farming.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think more players here will agree, that [Finish Him] has its place on a non Moebius bar. It works wonders with [Assassin's Promise] and [Signet of Deadly Corruption]. And as mentioned, is a very good DW option on a PvE Shattersin.

moriz · May 15, 2008, 10:39 PM // 22:39

[[finish him] is pretty good on an assassin, since it's the only way to apply a deep wound that won't interrupt the combo. obviously, twisting fangs does the same thing, but it doesn't fit very well on a moebius sin.

Super Igor · May 15, 2008, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

[[finish him] is pretty good on an assassin, since it's the only way to apply a deep wound that won't interrupt the combo. obviously, twisting fangs does the same thing, but it doesn't fit very well on a moebius sin.

Here!

Exactly what i was talking about earlyer in the thread, I can use the shout mid [death blossom] then interrupt my AoE damage to apply the finishing blow with [twisting fangs]. Thats why [finish him] is good, it is instant, very fast and ynavoidable, also ranged. And its synergy with MS/DB is that it doesnt interrupt the combo.

[finish him], [twisting fangs], [golden fang strike] are pretty much equal in my oppinion, every one of them is worthy to use having its own strong advantages on every daggerbased assassin build.

*Edit*

Wont even bother to comment on Kaleban's post as it is so...so much wrong and bad...

Bobby2 · May 15, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

OH please. Compare
[skill]finish him[/skill] and [skill]impale[/skill]
Impale is cheaper, just as unblockable, with the downside of having to follow up on a Dual (like Shattering isn't going to hit. srsly.) but it doesn't chew a PvE slot. My idea of playing a Shattersin:
[skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]shattering assault[/skill][skill]impale[/skill]TAB.
So imho it doesn't really matter if the DW could be applied at any moment between chain attacks.
btw: Impale doesn't ruin a MS-DB chain either.

RavagerOfDreams · May 15, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

for those of us with high norn

FH is a much better choice as 10 energy every 15 seconds is easy to manage. With a high rank FH outdamages gives another condition (both conditions also last longer) for another, and requires no point investment. 5 energy (more then worth it imo) so it really depends on your norn rank/ability to manage energy

isamu kurosawa · May 15, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

As stated by others [[finish him] has the huge advantage of not needing points in DA. This means you can confortably run 13 cs and 14 dagger mastery.

as usual it depends on your build, as well as the builds of your team.

read this however you want

[[impale|finish him] > [[finish him|impale]

Stormlord Alex · May 16, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

hai guyz wuts goin on in dis thred

btw
[finish him] is good on just about anyone (monks are excused, they need that energy/skill slot for t3h healz)
The assassin is no exception.

RavagerOfDreams · May 16, 2008, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

hai guyz wuts goin on in dis thred

btw
[finish him] is good on just about anyone (monks are excused, they need that energy/skill slot for t3h healz)
The assassin is no exception.

the lord of cats speaks the truth

petrorabbit · May 16, 2008, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

OH please. Compare
[skill]finish him[/skill] and [skill]impale[/skill]
Impale is cheaper, just as unblockable, with the downside of having to follow up on a Dual (like Shattering isn't going to hit. srsly.) but it doesn't chew a PvE slot. My idea of playing a Shattersin:
[skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]shattering assault[/skill][skill]impale[/skill]TAB.
So imho it doesn't really matter if the DW could be applied at any moment between chain attacks.
btw: Impale doesn't ruin a MS-DB chain either.

Prenerf Impale maybe, but that 1 second activation time makes that 5 extra energy on instant Finish Him worth it. Plus i like running 13 CS and 14DM. Besides, other than [Critical Agility] and [Save Yourselves], what other PvE skill would you run in a shattersin bar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Wont even bother to comment on Kaleban's post as it is so...so much wrong and bad...

Although another +1 of disproving Kaleban would have been nice =)

Bobby2 · May 16, 2008, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

Besides, other than [Critical Agility] and [Save Yourselves], what other PvE skill would you run in a shattersin bar?

[skill]you move like a dwarf[/skill] much needed, versatile interrupt
[skill]asuran scan[/skill] if you actually want to deal lethal damage someday
[skill]great dwarf weapon[/skill]/[skill]great dwarf armor[/skill] when feeling altruistic
[skill]sneak attack[/skill] for easy melee pwnage

...need I really go on?

All of these add a new, powerful element to the build, as opposed to [skill]finish him[/skill], which does a job already done well enough by several normal Sin skills.

petrorabbit · May 16, 2008, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

[skill]you move like a dwarf[/skill] much needed, versatile interrupt
[skill]asuran scan[/skill] if you actually want to deal lethal damage someday
[skill]great dwarf weapon[/skill]/[skill]great dwarf armor[/skill] when feeling altruistic
[skill]sneak attack[/skill] for easy melee pwnage

...need I really go on?

All of these add a new, powerful element to the build, as opposed to [skill]finish him[/skill], which does a job already done well enough by several normal Sin skills.

[You Move Like a Dwarf] is a strong skill that can be on a shattersin bar, but often times I find it unneccessary. Also, its annoying when you run into mobs that are immune to KD. Besides, i find [Disrupting Dagger] as a very good and reliable interupt even at 0 deadly arts.

[Asuran Scan] I don't know if i'd take this over [Finish Him] because of that 2 second casting time. The damage on the shattersin chain is not that bad, and it can indeed kill stuff, just not as quickly as a moebius bar. Finish Him still boosts damage since many high end mosters have over 60 AL armor, so i think i'd take the added DW also in 1 slot.

[Great Dwarf Weapon] is target other ally, but if you want to use your 3rd pve slot to boost another melee character, than by all means. Although i'd rather put this on a supporting character.

[Great Dwarf Armor] sounds like a good choice at first since it directly boosts your armor, but i dont' think i'd take that over Finish Him. For melee, you have [Critical Defense] as an option since you have so much room for utility on the shattersin bar. Maybe this would go well in a area with more magic damage than anything else.

[Sneak Attack] On a shattersin bar? Maybe, but I really don't see the point in bringing it when it can be blocked. Sure you can do it after the combo, but blinding a target that is almost dead doesn't seem efficient to me.

All in all, out of the options you mentioned, the only thing I would consider bringing instead of [Finish Him] is [You Move Like a Dwarf]. Even then, I think i'd rather take the DW and CA, since there are mobs in EotN especially, that can't be knocked down.

And if you have more PvE only skills that you think are more useful on the shattersin bar, then please do go on. =)

Bobby2 · May 16, 2008, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote Wars!

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

[You Move Like a Dwarf] is a strong skill that can be on a shattersin bar, but often times I find it unneccessary. Also, its annoying when you run into mobs that are immune to KD. Besides, i find [Disrupting Dagger] as a very good and reliable interupt even at 0 deadly arts. Shame it doesn't snare as well eh? I'd rather think of the number of foes not immune to KD.

[Asuran Scan] I don't know if i'd take this over [Finish Him] because of that 2 second casting time. The damage on the shattersin chain is not that bad, and it can indeed kill stuff, just not as quickly as a moebius bar. Finish Him still boosts damage since many high end mosters have over 60 AL armor, so i think i'd take the added DW also in 1 slot. Agree on casting time, but comparing its effect to Cracked Armour is just hilarious. At least, once you get Asura to a decent level.

[Great Dwarf Weapon] is target other ally, but if you want to use your 3rd pve slot to boost another melee character, than by all means. Although i'd rather put this on a supporting character. Meet random Derv when lfg for HM mission or sthing. You offer to bring GDW if he does so too - both of you smile wickedly. Hence altruistic.

Make friends.

[Great Dwarf Armor] sounds like a good choice at first since it directly boosts your armor, but i dont' think i'd take that over Finish Him. For melee, you have [Critical Defense] as an option since you have so much room for utility on the shattersin bar. Maybe this would go well in a area with more magic damage than anything else. Again, you self-centered little... lol. Was meant for others as well ('man I loooove having this Sin around'). Yes, it's worthless next to SY!, but I was just throwing out random ideas.

[Sneak Attack] On a shattersin bar? Maybe, but I really don't see the point in bringing it when it can be blocked. Sure you can do it after the combo, but blinding a target that is almost dead doesn't seem efficient to me. You can keep a target perma-Blind. Please tell me how this is not good.

All in all, out of the options you mentioned, the only thing I would consider bringing instead of [Finish Him] is [You Move Like a Dwarf]. Even then, I think i'd rather take the DW and CA, since there are mobs in EotN especially, that can't be knocked down. The vast (VAST!) majority of baddies are not immune, let's just assume KD's are good for a second. But why lose your DW over it? That's what Impale is for

12

petrorabbit · May 16, 2008, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Impale has a 1 second activation time, which is more than enough time for it to be interupted which. Finish him is instant can only by stopped by something like [Vocal Minority] or [Well of Silence] which is not so common among mobs.

And heres something cut and pasted from wiki for you:

Quote:

Creatures that cannot be knocked down
Certain creatures are simply too large for a tiny human player to knock off balance. These creatures are listed below. This list does not include creatures that use skills to temporarily protect themselves from knockdowns. The following are all giant creatures though not necessarily of the species "giant":

All Giants EXCEPT Awakened Gray Giants.
All Dolyak-riding Stone Summit units:
Dolyak Master
Dolyak Rider
Stone Summit Heretic
All beast-riding Stone Summit units:
Summit Beastmaster
Stone Summit Herder
The large- and medium-sized Titans:
Burning Titan
Frost Titan
Risen Ashen Hulk
Rotting Titan
Wild Growth
Some Trees.
All Wurms.
Dragon Liches.
Glint the dragon.
All Hydras
Siege Ice Golems
Stone Crushers
Zhu Hanuku
Shiro Tagachi
Sandstorm Crag
Shambling Mesa
Abaddon
Berserking Bison
All Jotun
Retrieved from "http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Knockdown"

Ok, so maybe you don't play in areas like Realm of Torment where you do run into titans, or maybe Shiverpeaks where you will run into Dolyaks, Seige Ice Golems or Wurms. Hydras in the desert? Maybe you don't run into Jotun or berserking bison in Norn territory that much, or farm norn points killing the dragon spirits in Path to Revalations. So maybe they're not as common compared to the whole GW beastiary but it affects areas that myself, and i'm sure others play in.

So far, your argument that there are other PvE skills better for a Shattersin bar than [Finish Him] isn't really convincing, only [You Move Like a Dwarf] can compare. Yes Impale can do DW, but Finish Him does it better without moving points around. If you need a KD and snare that bad, than bring YmlaD.

I guess at this point, its just back and forth opinions now. Either way, both [You move like a dwarf] and [Finish him] have their merits and we've gone over both. Players can decide for themselves what they want to use on their bar.

Unreal Havoc · May 16, 2008, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

[You Move Like a Dwarf] is a strong skill that can be on a shattersin bar, but often times I find it unneccessary. Also, its annoying when you run into mobs that are immune to KD. Besides, i find [Disrupting Dagger] as a very good and reliable interupt even at 0 deadly arts.

/Agree

Quote:

[Asuran Scan] I don't know if i'd take this over [Finish Him] because of that 2 second casting time. The damage on the shattersin chain is not that bad, and it can indeed kill stuff, just not as quickly as a moebius bar. Finish Him still boosts damage since many high end mosters have over 60 AL armor, so i think i'd take the added DW also in 1 slot.

This is a great skill for boosting damage dealt by an Assassin, I don't think it appiles to the AoE damage from Death Blossom though.

Quote:

][Great Dwarf Weapon] is target other ally, but if you want to use your 3rd pve slot to boost another melee character, than by all means. Although i'd rather put this on a supporting character.

Should already be running Save Yourselves as the ultimate party support skill, this is unnessacary on an Assassin.

Quote:

[Great Dwarf Armor] sounds like a good choice at first since it directly boosts your armor, but i dont' think i'd take that over Finish Him. For melee, you have [Critical Defense] as an option since you have so much room for utility on the shattersin bar. Maybe this would go well in a area with more magic damage than anything else.

Why would you run this on an Assassin when you have Critical Agility?

Quote:

[Sneak Attack] On a shattersin bar? Maybe, but I really don't see the point in bringing it when it can be blocked. Sure you can do it after the combo, but blinding a target that is almost dead doesn't seem efficient to me.

No point in runniing it on a Shattersin bar seems the rest of the attacks take 4 seconds to recharge anyway. Shattersins versatility is its unblockability, why sacrifice that for mediocre skills?

Quote:

All in all, out of the options you mentioned, the only thing I would consider bringing instead of [Finish Him] is [You Move Like a Dwarf]. Even then, I think i'd rather take the DW and CA, since there are mobs in EotN especially, that can't be knocked down.

On a Shattersin I'm going to agree.

Quote:

And if you have more PvE only skills that you think are more useful on the shattersin bar, then please do go on. =)

I think many more will be brought up by the end of today.

moriz · May 16, 2008, 01:03 PM // 13:03

on second thought, any deep wound on a moebius sin is quite bad. why? because that means 1 less death blossom, which means potentially a lot less aoe damage.

not to mention, the build certainly don't need a deep wound. it does enough damage to plow through most monsters in one go.

Unreal Havoc · May 16, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

on second thought, any deep wound on a moebius sin is quite bad. why? because that means 1 less death blossom, which means potentially a lot less aoe damage.

not to mention, the build certainly don't need a deep wound. it does enough damage to plow through most monsters in one go.

One extra skill to get into the chain. Golden Fang Strike if you're using Golden Phoenix as your lead, when switching targets under Critical Agility doesn't really going to make that much difference to be honest. Also in this case you could say one less Moebius Strike, which doesn't do AoE, in which case the Deep Wound would be beneficial.