Curse

Lishy · Aug 31, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I thought you cannot get a demonslayer mod in NF? Which means no spear/scythe mod?

Lishy · Aug 31, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I thought you cannot get a demonslayer mod in NF? Which means no spear/scythe mod?

petrorabbit · Sep 01, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

For Vamp vs Sundering, it boils down to this.

Vamp for constant damage, and Sundering for spike damage.

Vamp gets boosted from IAS, because faster attacks = more vamp triggers. This is why Vamp is good on daggers for their fast attacks and chance to double strike.

Sundering will get boosted by anything that modifies damage. This includes Aura of Holy Might, Asuran Scan, anything that will improve your crit percentage.

Since we're talking about a scythe here, which attacks slow compared to most other weapons, but has the highest top end damage of all weapons, I'm going to say sundering is better.

Bobby2 · Sep 01, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

...really? Vamp triggering on every target justifies itself pretty fast, even despite the Scythe's attack rate. Doesn't Sundering proc separately for each target hit?

Between AoHM and Scan though I can see why Vamp would matter little, and even rare Sunder procs stack up

petrorabbit · Sep 01, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

I guess you can look at it this way also.

Due to the nature of crit scythe builds, there should always be some kind of crit boosting skills on your bar(way of the master, critical eye). Because of the 20% armor penetration, sundering increases with effectiveness the higher your base damage is on your weapons. This is why Sundering is great on scythes, but not so great on daggers. On a critical hit, the bonus damage you get from armor penetration is also factored in. Add Aura of Holy Might, and Asuran Scan, suddenly you have a significant boost in damage. Also, with a 20/20 scythe, 20% is about 1 every 5 hits, which isn't that rare. The sweet spot is how often you will get that sunder proc to overlap your successful critical hits.

Vamp on the other hand is the same damage on every attack, regardless of your weapon's base damage. The damage from vamp is the same if you hit normally, or if you get a critical hit. Usually the faster your attacks(IAS, double strike) with vamp, the more vamp will trigger, and the more damage you will do. Even in your example, vamp hitting 3 targets will trigger.

If you have a dervish, you can test the difference in damage between a non-crit, and crit attack with sundering. Take a dervish/warrior, with Wild Blow (auto crit), Asuran Scan, and Aura of Holy might. Use a Sundering Scythe and you can compare your top end damage, dps, or whatever strikes your fancy. .

-Lotus- · Sep 02, 2008, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

For Vamp vs Sundering, it boils down to this.

Vamp for constant damage, and Sundering for spike damage.

Vamp gets boosted from IAS, because faster attacks = more vamp triggers. This is why Vamp is good on daggers for their fast attacks and chance to double strike.

Sundering will get boosted by anything that modifies damage. This includes Aura of Holy Might, Asuran Scan, anything that will improve your crit percentage.

Since we're talking about a scythe here, which attacks slow compared to most other weapons, but has the highest top end damage of all weapons, I'm going to say sundering is better.

vamp still adds more damage. on every weapon. the only reasonable circumstance for using sundering is during an axe/hammer/scythe spike when the extra few DPS dosnt make a big difference, but sundering kicking in could make or break the spike. there are no other situations in the game where sundering beats vamp.

petrorabbit · Sep 02, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

vamp still adds more damage. on every weapon. the only reasonable circumstance for using sundering is during an axe/hammer/scythe spike when the extra few DPS dosnt make a big difference, but sundering kicking in could make or break the spike. there are no other situations in the game where sundering beats vamp.

Considering most other weapons attack every 1.33 seconds, then yes, vamp does add more damage over hammers/scythes which attack at 1.75. I did say vamp is better for dps, which is what you aim for in pressure. That's why IAS will boost vamp triggers, while damage boosting(critical hits, AS, AoHM) better affects 20/20 sundering. 20% is 1 out of every 5 hits which is more often than you're implying.

As for "no other situations in game where sundering beats vamp", lets put this into perspective.

You only use vamp when you're doing attack damage.

You only use sundering when you're doing attack damage.

You mentioned sundering is better than vamp when spiking.

The only other situation really is pressure.

Is there another method of attack damage with vamp(other than spiking and pressure) that i'm not aware of that you can educate me on?

Tyla · Sep 02, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

You'll be critting on almost every hit with the scythe, and if that sundering mod kicks in you get one huge burst of damage. Plus the fact every swing of your scythe is almost the same as a spike without deep wound.

Steps_Descending · Sep 03, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

You'll be critting on almost every hit with the scythe

Sorry tyla but if Crit chances doesnt stack but combine (like block chances), I doubt you can get much highter than 70% (2/3 hit), which is indeed almost every hit.
But that is against a lv20. If you use that in PvE the chances will go down pretty fast.

-Lotus- · Sep 03, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Sorry tyla but if Crit chances doesnt stack but combine (like block chances), I doubt you can get much highter than 70% (2/3 hit), which is indeed almost every hit.
But that is against a lv20. If you use that in PvE the chances will go down pretty fast.

u r wrong.

dont argue with people that have actually tried something.

petrorabbit · Sep 03, 2008, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Sorry tyla but if Crit chances doesnt stack but combine (like block chances), I doubt you can get much highter than 70% (2/3 hit), which is indeed almost every hit.
But that is against a lv20. If you use that in PvE the chances will go down pretty fast.

It depends on the skill really. Way of the Assassin, Way of the Master, and Critical Eye do have "additional" or "+" in their wording, indicating an additive stacking. Critical Defense and Flashing Blades do not have "additional" or "+" in their wording, indicating multiplicative stacking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

u r wrong.

dont argue with people that have actually tried something.

Maybe you should show him proof that he's wrong instead of posting opinionated dribble that flushes your credibility down the toilet?

snaek · Sep 03, 2008, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Sorry tyla but if Crit chances doesnt stack but combine (like block chances), I doubt you can get much highter than 70% (2/3 hit), which is indeed almost every hit.
But that is against a lv20. If you use that in PvE the chances will go down pretty fast.

[way of the master] [critical eye]

if u read skill descriptions, it says "additional"

if u use concise, it will say "+3...27...33%"

so its adding, not multiplying

dam petro...beat me to it x__x

Turbobusa · Sep 03, 2008, 08:44 AM // 08:44

I'm not sure the wording is exact either.
By using the old WotA, WotM, critical eyes and ridiculous attributes in critical strikes and weaponmastery, you theorically go beyong 100%

But you do not crit all the time.

However the crit chances stay VERY high even facing lvl 30 mobs.

petrorabbit · Sep 03, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

I'm not sure the wording is exact either.
By using the old WotA, WotM, critical eyes and ridiculous attributes in critical strikes and weaponmastery, you theorically go beyong 100%

But you do not crit all the time.

However the crit chances stay VERY high even facing lvl 30 mobs.

One theory suggests there could be a cap on critical hit percentage, maybe somewhere around 80%-90%. It sounds plausible since there is a cap on IAS and IMS percentages, but there really is no official word on it.

illidan009 · Sep 03, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

quick go permasin and farm your ass off.