Curse

-Lotus- · Sep 10, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

if targets are dying so fast that you dont get to use MS you should be using AP. that's the situation the skill was designed for...

petrorabbit · Sep 11, 2008, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

Then vamp would be your best bet? Honestly sundering is bad leave it for scythes and hammers.

Hmm, maybe if you read the rest of the thread, you would know i'm responding to those who think sundering is bad period, when in fact it's great on hammers and scythes. I'm assuming people here are smart enough to know the difference between pressure and spike damage, and which weapons are more suited to them. Apparently, some people can't tell the difference.

-Lotus- · Sep 11, 2008, 03:48 AM // 03:48

sundering is bad in every situation other than a axe/scythe/hammer spike in pvp. no reason to use it in PvE, where you know your target isnt going to get spike healed and you wouldnt bother with a spike unless it was going to kill your target. theres no reason to use a spike that relies on random chance.

petrorabbit · Sep 11, 2008, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Again, please education me on every other situation?

So far the only other situation, if you're not spiking, is applying pressure through constant dps for damage output. So yes, it is bad in every other situation when there really is only one other situation. Do you count healing? Because I agree, sundering is terrible at healing, so is zealous, and elemental damage. But hey, vamp can heal you, it just won't keep you alive when you need it to. Are you also counting AoE? Because AoE still comes in either spike or pressure form. Or how about just walking? Yes, sundering is useless in that situation, at least with vamp you can degen yourself right?

As for no reason to use it in PvE? I guess you don't realize that people do use critical scythe for PvE also, for their very large chance to critical hit with the high base damage weapons. I mean, zomg I can also use [Aura of Holy Might], [Critical Agility], and/or [Asuran Scan]. That by itself makes it a viable alternative to MS/DB spam for those of us with imagination.

But that's not what this thread is about. It was already established that sundering is bad for daggers, but it has uses with scythes and hammers, especially in spiking. You're sweeping generalization that "sundering is bad" without listing the reasons why, or evidence to back up your claim, just doesn't give your opinion any support or credibility.

Didn't we go over this already?

Turbobusa · Sep 11, 2008, 07:04 AM // 07:04

There is no such thing as pressure in PvE.

petrorabbit · Sep 11, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

There is no such thing as pressure in PvE.

If MS/DB isn't a spike build, what would you call it?

faraaz · Sep 11, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Use scan with MS/DB and it becomes a spike...lol jk.

petrorabbit · Sep 11, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Game update: Asuran Scan is know called Spike Converter.

Turbobusa · Sep 11, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

MS/DB is both pressure and "fast kill"
There is not just pressure and spike. There is PvE where you kill, as fast as possible.

Try DPSing when everything is dead within seconds. You might be able to, which means you're not killing, or killing to slow, but then I can't help you if you don't deal damage with a scythe.
You just don't have time to pressure.

petrorabbit · Sep 11, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Ok, once again, Pressure relies on DPS, while Spike relies on burst damage. Both goals are still the same, apply damage quickly to bring down your target.

Spike damage is meant to do as much damage as possible in big spurts.

Pressure damage relies on a rate of damage that can be held consistently. Hence DPS or Damage Per Second.

So in essence, if your target is big enough to survive your [Unsuspecting Strike] followed by [Golden Fang Strike] which most dungeon bosses, and mission bosses do, you rely on MS/DB to dps them down via pressure.

You also sound like your talking about PvE Normal (read: Easy) Mode, where you kill most mobs within 5 hits, hence why the "fast kill".

-Lotus- · Sep 11, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by petrorabbit

babble babble

please stop wasting space. you didnt say a single thing that had to do with sundering mods.

sundering is good in spikes when you are going against heavy healing and you need a little something to kick up the damage. this is not the case in PvE and you are much, much better adding a guarnteed damage that adds up to be quite a bit more.

petrorabbit · Sep 11, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

please stop wasting space. you didnt say a single thing that had to do with sundering mods.

and i'm still avoiding responses

I did in the other thread which you dodged after my last post.

I'm still waiting on you to back up your claim on "every other situation".

So until then please take your own advice and stop wasting space.

Turbobusa · Sep 11, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Extra damage you get from sundering is boosted by asura scan and aura of holy might.
I'm pretty sure you can out DPS vamp with that.

As soon as I get a vamp scythe for my sin, I'll master of damage it with both scythes, same build and all.

EDIT: just out of curiosity I tried to see how much damage I get for my

[wounding strike][malicious strike][aura of holy might]@r6[asura scan]@57% damage increase
15% enchanted, evil sundering (boooooooooo)
No mod of wooden suit hunting, I promess.
not customised (Heh why is it not? time to remedy)

the numbers given are those given by malicious strike, condition met by wounding strike. AoHM up.

60AL
no Asura scan, no sundering: 135
no Asura scan, sundering: 159 (+24, 5 vamp hits, rounded up)
Asura scan, no sundering: 212
Asura scan, sundering: 250 (+38, 7 vamp hits rounded down)

100AL
no Asura scan, no sundering: 82
no Asura scan, sundering: 104 (+22, 4 vamp hits rounded down)
Asura scan, no sundering: 129
Asura scan, sundering: 163 (+34, 7 vamp hits rounded up)

+38. Per sundercrit. Ofc, it's not going to be a critical hit all the time, but we're talking critscythe here, it is like 70% criticals.
Ill try the DPS test later. But hey, +38.
Ho and I usually run around with a smiter, that's +14damage more, and 20%penetration ,not to mention that holy damage ignores inherent armor bonusses from warriors. That makes the differenceeven more noticable.

Quote:

You also sound like your talking about PvE Normal (read: Easy) Mode, where you kill most mobs within 5 hits, hence why the "fast kill".

No I'm talking everything. NM is more like 2-3hits max.
And "most" is the point. If MOSTLY you get more damage out of sundering, but in 1, maybe 2 situations vamp is better, does that make it better overall?

petrorabbit · Sep 11, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

Extra damage you get from sundering is boosted by asura scan and aura of holy might.
I'm pretty sure you can out DPS vamp with that.

As soon as I get a vamp scythe for my sin, I'll master of damage it with both scythes, same build and all.

EDIT: just out of curiosity I tried to see how much damage I get for my

[wounding strike][malicious strike][aura of holy might]@r6[asura scan]@57% damage increase
15% enchanted, evil sundering (boooooooooo)
No mod of wooden suit hunting, I promess.
not customised (Heh why is it not? time to remedy)

the numbers given are those given by malicious strike, condition met by wounding strike. AoHM up.

60AL
no Asura scan, no sundering: 135
no Asura scan, sundering: 159 (+24, 5 vamp hits, rounded up)
Asura scan, no sundering: 212
Asura scan, sundering: 250 (+38, 7 vamp hits rounded down)

100AL
no Asura scan, no sundering: 82
no Asura scan, sundering: 104 (+22, 4 vamp hits rounded down)
Asura scan, no sundering: 129
Asura scan, sundering: 163 (+34, 7 vamp hits rounded up)

+38. Per sundercrit. Ofc, it's not going to be a critical hit all the time, but we're talking critscythe here, it is like 70% criticals.
Ill try the DPS test later. But hey, +38.
Ho and I usually run around with a smiter, that's +14damage more, and 20%penetration ,not to mention that holy damage ignores inherent armor bonusses from warriors. That makes the differenceeven more noticable.

No I'm talking everything. NM is more like 2-3hits max.
And "most" is the point. If MOSTLY you get more damage out of sundering, but in 1, maybe 2 situations vamp is better, does that make it better overall?

For one, I'm a supporter of sundering on the right weapons. I'm against those who discount its usefulness with biased opinions.

First of all, thanks for taking the time to test and post your numbers.

Your numbers supports what I've said before, that sundering scales better with high damage weapons, and anything that will boost your damage including critical hits, asuran scan, AoHM.

So if sundering procs at 20%, which is 1 out of 5 hits, it can pretty much stay close to pace with vampiric without AS. With the AS, it can convincingly outpace vamp.

Of course, critical hits will be a factor, but critscythe builds can push that pace with WotM and CE, 12 scythe, and 13+ critical strike.

But lets be honest here. Zealous and Furious mods will be more of the primary mod for melee weapons. Elemental damage will be secondary, but can be primary for conjure builds or things builds like Grenths Grasp. Vamp/Sundering is usually your third option as a mod for your primary melee weapon. The only time I see vamp used as a primary mod is for dagger spike builds. The only time I see sundering used as a primary mod is for Scythes and Hammers because of their top end damage.

I look forward to your dps test.