Curse

Tyla · Oct 23, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

I've played an Assassin for about a year (he's been around for 2 years, my PvP one 1 year) now, and I can assure you that Warriors and Dervs are alot stronger. Plus, "skillless nubs" shouldn't be said to someone unless you know their skill level personally. There have already been reasons, and if you really want to emphasise your point please bring up your argument instead of saying "skillless nubs" and not leaving any explanation of their power (lol) whatsoever.

Stealth Bomberman · Oct 23, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Plus, "skillless nubs" shouldn't be said to someone unless you know their skill level personally. There have already been reasons, and if you really want to emphasise your point please bring up your argument instead of saying "skillless nubs" and not leaving any explanation of their power (lol) whatsoever.

to me a "skilless nub" is a player with no knowledge of the prof (as it appears). whats to bring up? they have no skill with the prof. and if for any reason their skill lvl "personally" just isnt cutting it, obviously theres work to be done on how they can improve. ive never used "skilless nub" before in general chat, it was the only thing i could think of atm. sometimes though it feels that way. sins just not playing to their full potential rushing mobbs and praying they dont die while having one hand over their eyes and getting lucky killing unprotted monks or any softie at that.

Tyla · Oct 23, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Rushing mobs is fun. Grab a shit ton of aggro and grab a shit ton of prot and MS/DB.

Issac · Oct 23, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

People complain about them because sometimes sins kill them before they can even react. With the right build and stuff their a really good profession.

gremlin · Oct 23, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Its a little pointless imo to say that class A is better than class B or C what matters is how well they can work in a team.

The assassin in pve has the ability to cross an area quickly to get to a target and kill.
So in a pve team I would expect the enemy spellcasters to start dying a few seconds into a fight.

I would also expect them to be a main line of defence in case something nasty got to my back line.
As someone already said they need to be aware of the changing battlefield situation.

Limited use as a hero even if micromanaged, afraid assassins need a functioning human brain behind their actions which rules out some players.

insidious420 · Oct 23, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Tyla: Regarding our exchanges, the OP titled the thread "Assassin's Underatted?". I think you took some of my points out of that context, such as the conditions argument. I was comparing an Assassin directly to a Warrior, with no outside influences or assistance from other players (such as an RC monk, as you said). My point was that 'sins have tools at their disposal that synergize well with each other to acheive offensive & defensive results that another class (Warrior, in this example) cannot achieve ON THEIR OWN.

My point about condition & stance removal was that if the situation REQUIRED constant condition & stance removal provided by the damage dealer (Assassin or Warrior) in order for them to even touch the target, a 'sin could cure itself & strip enemy defenses & still use attack skills for damage with no hinderence. A Warrior would lose all adrenaline every time they hit Wild Blow & probably would not be able to charge up enough attacks to kill a target before they activated their block stance upon recharge. This is completely aside from the fact that a Warrior couldn't remove blind from himself. That is partly why I agree they are *somewhat* underrated.

Tyla · Oct 23, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by insidious420

Tyla: Regarding our exchanges, the OP titled the thread "Assassin's Underatted?". I think you took some of my points out of that context, such as the conditions argument. I was comparing an Assassin directly to a Warrior, with no outside influences or assistance from other players (such as an RC monk, as you said). My point was that 'sins have tools at their disposal that synergize well with each other to acheive offensive & defensive results that another class (Warrior, in this example) cannot achieve ON THEIR OWN.

And without using what you can bring as an example you're not exactly looking at the situation in full. Even then, if you really want to achieve it "on your own", /Mo and Mending Touch etc...

Quote:

My point about condition & stance removal was that if the situation REQUIRED constant condition & stance removal provided by the damage dealer (Assassin or Warrior) in order for them to even touch the target, a 'sin could cure itself & strip enemy defenses & still use attack skills for damage with no hinderence. A Warrior would lose all adrenaline every time they hit Wild Blow & probably would not be able to charge up enough attacks to kill a target before they activated their block stance upon recharge. This is completely aside from the fact that a Warrior couldn't remove blind from himself. That is partly why I agree they are *somewhat* underrated.

And anybody smart would simply leave the protted target, or in the instance of alot of protted targets (i.e Aegis), search for the best one to build adrenaline on or pressure in the process in terms of distance and damage efficiency. As for blind, that's pretty much out of the meta these days as a standalone condition; with Immo / Steam, you'd probably catch out the Burning first, and even then you could always use your secondary to your advantage as a Warrior, such as Conjure Frost and Armour of Frost.

Super Igor · Oct 23, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Sins suck???!!! Omigash /stalkez /facepalm, srsly...

I played sin for like...since the beggining, since start of factions as my MAIN character and the prof I pretty much only played with (everything else was theorycrafting ;o), yea yea, it had hard times, before ms/db and nightfall, but something made me keep this charatcer, and like it no matter the flaming! And look at them now...

In PvE: THEY ARE DAMN DAMAGE POWEHOWSES! can easily beat some eles in afarming and warriors in damage infact what they can do is amazing, a lot of team prefer a sin both as a damage dealer and a tank now (tanks to permaform...). They also look very saxayyyyy. <33333

In PvP: Imba Imba Imba, how can something insanely Imba be weak? O__o

Stealth Bomberman · Oct 23, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

I would also expect them to be a main line of defence in case something nasty got to my back line.
As someone already said they need to be aware of the changing battlefield situation.

"save yourselves" makes sins a great party support player to. with the fast atk speed (crit agility) they build it up quick giving the monks a extra party prot to work with.

I know warriors can use "save yourselves" too with the dragon slash build, but sins dont have to dedicated 75% of their bar to build up adrenaline.

Bobby2 · Oct 23, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

PvE: MS/DB raaawr

PvP: you -are- a Shadowstepping Deep Wound spike. The rest is just filler.

btw +1 for obv troll thread

Tyla · Oct 23, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

"save yourselves" makes sins a great party support player to. with the fast atk speed (crit agility) they build it up quick giving the monks a extra party prot to work with.

I know warriors can use "save yourselves" too with the dragon slash build, but sins dont have to dedicated 75% of their bar to build up adrenaline.

Errr... what?

You do know that "SY!" isn't the only skill on that bar that has a meaning, right?

Stealth Bomberman · Oct 23, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Errr... what?

You do know that "SY!" isn't the only skill on that bar that has a meaning, right?

as a matter of fact i do. i wasnt refering to the skill that way. im saying warriors have pretty much a set build they have to use in order for "SY!" to be even remotely useful, whereas, sins auto atking makes it go up fast enough giving them more choices to play around with instead of falling into 1-2 set builds.

MS/DB spam is one of those builds sins use well with "SY!" but thats not all were inclined to use to make it effective all while being able to explore more builds.

Paddatoochie · Oct 23, 2008, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Sins are basically a caster but in melee range, as they cannot have a shield and do damage as well.

They have hardly any pressure unless running a mobius chain, in which case it can easily get diverted or d shotted because it's a spam spam build.

If you want pressure on a sin you could also run Shattering Assault, however this has hardly any spike potential.

The advantage of warriors over assassins is that they have higher damage weapons, and a reliable permanent IAS if you chose.

In addition, warriors can still be useful if one of the pieces of their "chain" get's diverted, d shot, or shield bashed. Assassins cannot.

Damian979 · Oct 24, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Underrated in PvE? Yes. Poorly played by 95% of the people who play them? Yes. Supposed to be trying to spike out high armor targets in PvP? Huh?

Stealth Bomberman · Oct 25, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian979

Underrated in PvE? Yes. Poorly played by 95% of the people who play them? Yes. Supposed to be trying to spike out high armor targets in PvP? Huh?

not spiking high armor prof in pvp, more like shutting down i.e temple strike/ siphon strength

lord_shar · Oct 25, 2008, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Sins were quite weak when Factions initially hit the market. Given their melee attack skills combined with caster-grade armor and Afflicted corpse explosions, it was little wonder that they gained a glass-cannon reputation. Their best elite available at that time: Flourish, since Moebius Strike was still an 8-sec cooldown skill with a hit requirement. Perma-Shadow was still non-existent.

Fast-forward a few skill rebalances. Moebius strike and Death Blossom now have 2-sec recharge lengths. Aftercast still didn't exist. The Shadow-Burst build was very strong. It wasn't long before "nerf the sin" became a regular mantra from many non-sin players. This was eventually done to maintain game balance.

The present-day sin isn't the consistent 1-combo killer that it used to be, but it's still fun to play regardless. Yes, it was poorly implemented from the start, but that doesn't mean that it should be forgotten altogether, especially in GW2. It is strange how the sin started as a suicidal ninja, then transitioned to a pvp spike monster, and finally the current king of hard-mode solo-farming. It's been a long trip.

Stealth Bomberman · Oct 26, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Sins were quite weak when Factions initially hit the market. Given their melee attack skills combined with caster-grade armor and Afflicted corpse explosions, it was little wonder that they gained a glass-cannon reputation. Their best elite available at that time: Flourish, since Moebius Strike was still an 8-sec cooldown skill with a hit requirement. Perma-Shadow was still non-existent.

Fast-forward a few skill rebalances. Moebius strike and Death Blossom now have 2-sec recharge lengths. Aftercast still didn't exist. The Shadow-Burst build was very strong. It wasn't long before "nerf the sin" became a regular mantra from many non-sin players. This was eventually done to maintain game balance.

The present-day sin isn't the consistent 1-combo killer that it used to be, but it's still fun to play regardless. Yes, it was poorly implemented from the start, but that doesn't mean that it should be forgotten altogether, especially in GW2. It is strange how the sin started as a suicidal ninja, then transitioned to a pvp spike monster, and finally the current king of hard-mode solo-farming. It's been a long trip.

hit it right on the nail with this one.

when fact came out, sins were the last prof i thought i would try out. but by the time nf and eotn came(not including nerf city's new residents), the assassin gameplay styles started opening my eyes.

its true ppl that suck with them want em nerfed b/c face it, they suck. but the fact of the matter is, sins play a crucial role in gw ive learned. able to kill ANYONE within secs has made game balance more difficult to achieve, besides the fact mesmers never get nerfed only buffed which is fucn stupid.

I KNOW in gw2 sins will still be here bc they bring a diff msg to gw. the sin class will live forever so long ppl like me give them hope.

Rick Thene · Oct 26, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

I'm not too sure about people's attitudes to Sins in PvE, as I almost never PuG with mine. H/H has gotten me through every campaign already, why should I? However, in the times that I have PuGd I have played with some very bad Sins, but also some very good ones, same as every other profession.

In PvP I think bad players overrate Sins, while good players justifiably see them as being inferior in the current metagame. I'm not going to waffle on the reasons for this, as others have summed them up already.

As for GW2, well, I hope Sins make it, but I also hope for changes with them. Better class mechanics, a clearer battlefield role and maybe even a clearer distinction between PvP and PvE Sins. eg. PvP Sins focus on mobility, positioning, striking weak points, disabling key enemies (not necessarily through killing), and striking hard and fast to sow confusion. PvE Sins focus on tackling multiple enemies at a time, dealing damage to groups with short-recharge attack chains similar to DB/MS now, while dodging and parrying enemy attacks.
If all this goes through, they may even need a name change, the most drastic of changes! How's "Mercenary" sound for a name?

Sorry about that bit of off-topic. I'm just looking forward to making an Asura Sin.

Cammy · Oct 29, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

In PvP:

Deadly arts hex nerfs (Shadow Prison, Siphon Speed, Dark Prison, Expose Defenses) and shadowstep aftercasts pretty much made gank sins infeasible since:

1) They have to wait forever between spikes.
2) It is either difficult or energy intensive to apply cover hexes to ensure that hex based attack skills (namely Black Mantis and its cripple condition) will go through.

Horns of the Ox nerf hurt just about every sin build type since:

1) The two 'falling' attacks are some of the most useful b/c of the extra damage they provide and most importantly as enablers for 2x dual attack chains. Using Trampling Ox, the only feasible way to accomplish 2x dual attacks is through the 5 skill chain (Black Mantis/Leaping Mantis -> X Offhand -> Trampling Ox -> X Falling -> Twisting Fangs).

With a 5 attack skill chain you reduce your damage, since you can't have Blades of Steel + Deep Wound and must use Twisting Fangs, which does decent damage but not nearly as much as Blades of Steel + Impale.

This is compared to a HotO bar that used 4 attack skills (incl. Blades of Steel) + Impale. The bar still works but with the reduced HoTO +dmg, it can't really kill anything reliably.

2) Moebius pressure bars don't work nearly as well. Whereas the previous Moebius pressure bar consisted of spamming Horns<->Moebius<->Twisting Fangs, doing chain knockdowns and significant damage, the only option now is Twisting<->Moebius<->Death Blossom or Moebius<->Death Blossom + Impale. Chain KDs are significantly more pressure than Death Blossom spam, and used correctly, the Moebius<->Horns bar could easily solo nearly any profession. Of course it still works in theory, but the damage just isn't there. Good luck getting someone below 50% health with the nerfed Horns.

WotA briefly revived burst sins but the IAS feature that made it so powerful was nerfed.

TL;DR

Use Assacasters, Scythe sins, BB sins, shattering assault sins, and maybe GG sins.

Super Igor · Oct 29, 2008, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Well, in PvE, sins rock possibly more than any other melee class, you cant neglect that.