Curse

jsn · Sep 26, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

looking for some opinions on running 16 dagger master(0.99 attack rate with lvl 16 dagger mastery)

i wasnt sure if there was a increased attack speed cap for assassins or not

any tips would be great

there is a noticable difference from 1.33>>0.99

but can really see a difference with lvl 16 DM +33% ias from critical agility

im sure about 30 ppl will chime in that sup runes are a *noob* move.

please read the facts before writing something idiotic please(research before you flame)

anyone with assassin exp in this area please reply or pm

ign-Bunny Quickness

legacyofkain85 · Sep 27, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

16 dagger mastery=superior rune=bad,go for 12+1+1 cause 14 is enough and u cant compare 16 dagger mastery to critical agility(its to good to be true tbh),i would chose 14 dagger mastery +critical agility over 16 dagger mastery anyday

EDIT: yes there is a IAS(increased atack speed)cap and its 33% unless coming from a single skill,altho assassins atack faster due to the fact that daggers have a chance of double strike with atacks which increases with every rank in dagger mastery i belive

Lyynyyrd · Sep 27, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Double strikes are not an IAS - With 16 Dagger Mastery, you have 0.99 attack rate, you can still reduce that time further by using an IAS.

Bobby2 · Sep 27, 2008, 01:15 AM // 01:15

IAS and the double strike effect stack. Superior runs are baed (run 14).

Attack skills are ALWAYS single-strike, unless they're Dual Attacks in which case they always double strike.

....double strike is overrated

FlamingMetroid · Sep 27, 2008, 02:09 AM // 02:09

+1 for sup runes are bad

go
12+1+1 dagger
12 + 1 crit

majikmajikmajik · Sep 27, 2008, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

+1 for sup runes are bad

i aggreeeeeeee

Luminarus · Sep 29, 2008, 04:57 AM // 04:57

A sup rune costs u 75hp for 2 attribute ranks. Whilst 0.99 is a great difference compared to 1.33, compare 0.99 to whatever 14 is, and then see if thats worth the 75hp...

Also as others said dual attacks =/= IAS. They dont make ur attack skills any faster. If ur trying to kill something with auto attacking on daggers... i have one thing to say:

LOL

odly · Sep 29, 2008, 05:29 AM // 05:29

If you decide to go with 16 dagger mastery, then I'd recommend using critical agility as well. Remember it also gives you permanent >+20 armor. Somthing an assassin can certainlly use, being mellee...

Sup runes can be used in PvE most of the time. And if you start dying you can allways switch armor sets for a minor rune ...

laylife0890 · Sep 30, 2008, 02:03 PM // 14:03

I'm inclined to agree with the general consensus of replies here. The way I think of it is there is no substitute for health, because although your attacks hit for greater amounts, you'd be withdrawing from battle more often than at 14 DM. At 14 DM you'd have the health plus whatever IAS you choose, and additional armor you get from skill/spell/armor, ergo you'd stay in battle and be more efficient at striking, pressuring and killing your opponent(s).
As tempting as 16 DM may seem, it is not a substitute for staying alive. If you can't keep yourself up, (and it would be quite tricky being a frontline with -75 health), you put strain on your party, because your health bar would be flactuating from the highs to lows as monks frantically try to protect and heal you (plus, not every monk has ideal skill bars). Your frontline won't be as strong if you keep moving backwards and forwards, which aggravates the warriors and any other frontline melee you have in your team.
In any case like legacyofkain85 said, 14 DM is quite substantial, even more so having an IAS on your bar etc.

Hope I didn't blabble on too much there, but hope it helps.

odly · Oct 01, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

If I'm monking I'll ask you to take 2 sup runes

. I'll be keeping a prot spirit on you all the time anyway and that's 15 less damage you're taking and I need to heal.

Balky · Oct 17, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I`m running 2 supe runes, dagger and crit, those skills are set at 14, allowing me to set shadow arts at 10 , combine that with crit eye and way of perfection, along with unsuspecting, wild, critical strike and mobius , i actually self heal quite well, ( 60 hp back using the critical strike skill + the energy recharge which amounts to 14 ) mobius allows crit to recharge quickly meaning crit then gets me another 60 back in seconds.

As for the ability to double strike even for a few points of damage, it`s amazing how many times with a 28% chance to crit i do so, 1 in 3 attacks essentially , throw in great dwarf armour or critical defences ( which recharges on every crit ) and a set of vamp daggers, hell even with a set of 20/20 sunds, i can hold my own quite well without relying too much on monks.

Don`t forget nightstalkers insignia gives you a +15 armour boost on parts of your armour while attacking, lowering damage taken as well.

Like anything its down to how you adapt your skillset, some assis like shadow form, i can see the advantage of not getting hit by spells and attacks, but even if you`re not running supe runes, that still leaves you at risk of a massive hp drop, and if you get smacked at the precise instant it ends, you`re toast! ( Dependant obviously on second profession and skills )

Striken7 · Oct 17, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

I`m running 2 supe runes, dagger and crit, those skills are set at 14, allowing me to set shadow arts at 10 , combine that with crit eye and way of perfection, along with unsuspecting, wild, critical strike and mobius , i actually self heal quite well, ( 60 hp back using the critical strike skill + the energy recharge which amounts to 14 ) mobius allows crit to recharge quickly meaning crit then gets me another 60 back in seconds.

2 sup runes is even worse then 1, which is bad enough.

Quote:

As for the ability to double strike even for a few points of damage, it`s amazing how many times with a 28% chance to crit i do so, 1 in 3 attacks essentially , throw in great dwarf armour or critical defences ( which recharges on every crit ) and a set of vamp daggers, hell even with a set of 20/20 sunds, i can hold my own quite well without relying too much on monks.

Until you get your enchants stripped, or you are blinded, or hexed, or snared. Your basically a Monks worst nightmare waiting to happen if any multiple number of things affect your ability to attack and/or hit.

Quote:

Don`t forget nightstalkers insignia gives you a +15 armour boost on parts of your armour while attacking, lowering damage taken as well.

The one thing you don't want to do when taking a lot of damage is stand there and keep attacking. Stop attacking and get away from the enemies - you are not a Warrior, so don't act like one. Give your Monks a fighting chance at least.

Quote:

Like anything its down to how you adapt your skillset, some assis like shadow form, i can see the advantage of not getting hit by spells and attacks, but even if you`re not running supe runes, that still leaves you at risk of a massive hp drop, and if you get smacked at the precise instant it ends, you`re toast! ( Dependant obviously on second profession and skills )

No (good) assassin uses SF in actual PvE, it's for farming and farming only.

Like anything, it's down to using a smart skill set, with smart equipment, and a smart playstyle. Trying to stand there and tank out massive damage with two superior runes, low armor, and your entire self-sustainability dependent on nothing bad happening to you is none of the above.

FlamingMetroid · Oct 17, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

I approve of the above post

lord_shar · Oct 17, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsn

looking for some opinions on running 16 dagger master(0.99 attack rate with lvl 16 dagger mastery)

i wasnt sure if there was a increased attack speed cap for assassins or not

any tips would be great

there is a noticable difference from 1.33>>0.99

but can really see a difference with lvl 16 DM +33% ias from critical agility

im sure about 30 ppl will chime in that sup runes are a *noob* move.

please read the facts before writing something idiotic please(research before you flame)

anyone with assassin exp in this area please reply or pm

ign-Bunny Quickness

Here is the answer (from http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/IAS):

"Changes in attack speeds are capped at 133% total for IAS (increased attack speed, 100% being your normal attack speed) and 50% total for DAS (decreased attack speed) from normal."

Regarding Superior Runes: I keep multiple sin masks with different superior runes depending on the required build. If I go UW-soloing, VS-farming, DoA tanking, or anything requiring 15-16 shadow, I'm definitely taking Superior Shadow. However, I do agree with previous posts stating that one superior rune should be the limit if you want to optimize your assassin's survival.

PS: Were you in the LaZy guild? Your ID is an older entry on my friends list.

EDIT: Higher DM will improve double strike percentages in auto-attack mode and add slightly more damage to DM-attack skills. However, I just usually run my sin's DM at 12 since this seems to optimize damage vs. points invested.

The Meth · Oct 17, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

The problem is you ONLY get the .99 attack rate when you aren't using skills. So, although it stacks with critical agility, you only get it when using pitiful 7-17 damage daggers. Its much better to use assassin skills that take off 75-150 health per hit then to get in one extra attack.

The only time the double strikes from high dagger mastery would come into play is if you get a massive amount of +damage buffs (I am the strongest, Great Dwarf Weapon, the vanguard wards, Asuran scan and such). Even then the difference between a 1.03 attack time at 14 dagger mastery and a .99 attack time at 16 dagger mastery is almost nothing, so there isn't much use for the sup rune (especially since you can't use dagger skills, or it would mess up your damage).

snaek · Oct 18, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

even tho double strikes is similar to an ias...
it shouldnt be treated teh same

i.e. it should not be 0.99 attack speed @ 16 dagger mastery
it should read 1.33 attack speed w/ 34% chance to double strike @ 16 dagger mastery

Bobby2 · Oct 18, 2008, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Even then the difference between a 1.03 attack time at 14 dagger mastery and a .99 attack time at 16 dagger mastery is almost nothing

This.

I'm just going to say 'no, period' to sup dagger runes unless you're 1337 enough to swap back to minor runed mask if you get in trouble. Frontliners need the HP, especially if there's a puny 70AL hidden under Agility.

Tom Swift · Oct 18, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Couple of things

1: Increased dagger mastery does not only increase the speed of attack by supplying dual strikes. It also increases the chance of a critical hit at a higher rate/rank than critical strikes does. It also increases the damage done above the 7-17 (I believe the amount at level 16 is an extra 15% dmg). And the critical hits themselves also ensure a maximum hit plus a small amount of added damage. So we are not really talking about 7-17 per hit as a high number of hits will be guaranteed to be above the max. (with critical eye and way of the assassin a huge number of hits are critical)

That being said, the damage from daggers even on a critical hit is still pitiful. you can take down a stone elemental in hm but not much else.

However, damage is not the only consideration. You also have to think about...

2: The skills you are likely to choose with 16 dagger are going to be in the dagger mastery line and, of course, their effectiveness is higher as you raise dagger mastery. (Balky has a good point too. Sup runes aren't always used merely to reach maximum attribute. In order raise another skill high enough, you may need to use a sup dagger rune to reach 14 dagger - the benefit breaking point of number of skills)

3: Energy gain is a consideration. With zealous daggers giving you energy on every hit (plus the extra energy on critical hits if you have points in critical strikes) the extra attack speed and the extra chance to land critical hits by putting points into dagger mastery might be something to think about.

4: Health gain is also something to consider. Enchantments like live vicariously and vigorous spirit trigger trigger on hits (lv) and attacks (vs) so the extra speed from dagger mastery might be something you need. Is the extra healing from the bonus speed enough to overcome the 75 point health hit for a superior rune?

5: Where are you and what are you doing? No sin build is optimal for every situation in every place. Know what you are going to face and then decide whether high health or fast energy/healing is better for what you want to do.

In other words, it's not a straight forward consideration of 7-17 dagger dmg vs maximum health. There are other benefits that also have to be considered.

Given all that, I don't have an answer for you other than ignore those who give you hard and fast rules - they are the real noobs. In general I don't use superior runes but there are other times they are very helpful.

If you want a suggestion I'd say test and see how the attributes work with each other vs energy/health. Goo to sardalac with things like critical eye, critical agility, vigorous spirit, live vicariously, way of the assassin and critical defense (no attack skills) and then go out and attack cobble poundstone in hm. Without attack skills you will not be able to kill him but it is very easy to watch the numbers and observe critical hits/health/and energy gain. Then mess around with the attributes and see what differences they make and if those differences may or may not be worth the health loss to you.

The Meth · Oct 18, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Swift

Couple of things

1: Increased dagger mastery does not only increase the speed of attack by supplying dual strikes. It also increases the chance of a critical hit at a higher rate/rank than critical strikes does. It also increases the damage done above the 7-17 (I believe the amount at level 16 is an extra 15% dmg). And the critical hits themselves also ensure a maximum hit plus a small amount of added damage. So we are not really talking about 7-17 per hit as a high number of hits will be guaranteed to be above the max. (with critical eye and way of the assassin a huge number of hits are critical)

That being said, the damage from daggers even on a critical hit is still pitiful. you can take down a stone elemental in hm but not much else.

However, damage is not the only consideration. You also have to think about...

2: The skills you are likely to choose with 16 dagger are going to be in the dagger mastery line and, of course, their effectiveness is higher as you raise dagger mastery. (Balky has a good point too. Sup runes aren't always used merely to reach maximum attribute. In order raise another skill high enough, you may need to use a sup dagger rune to reach 14 dagger - the benefit breaking point of number of skills)

3: Energy gain is a consideration. With zealous daggers giving you energy on every hit (plus the extra energy on critical hits if you have points in critical strikes) the extra attack speed and the extra chance to land critical hits by putting points into dagger mastery might be something to think about.

4: Health gain is also something to consider. Enchantments like live vicariously and vigorous spirit trigger trigger on hits (lv) and attacks (vs) so the extra speed from dagger mastery might be something you need. Is the extra healing from the bonus speed enough to overcome the 75 point health hit for a superior rune?

5: Where are you and what are you doing? No sin build is optimal for every situation in every place. Know what you are going to face and then decide whether high health or fast energy/healing is better for what you want to do.

In other words, it's not a straight forward consideration of 7-17 dagger dmg vs maximum health. There are other benefits that also have to be considered.

Given all that, I don't have an answer for you other than ignore those who give you hard and fast rules - they are the real noobs. In general I don't use superior runes but there are other times they are very helpful.

If you want a suggestion I'd say test and see how the attributes work with each other vs energy/health. Goo to sardalac with things like critical eye, critical agility, vigorous spirit, live vicariously, way of the assassin and critical defense (no attack skills) and then go out and attack cobble poundstone in hm. Without attack skills you will not be able to kill him but it is very easy to watch the numbers and observe critical hits/health/and energy gain. Then mess around with the attributes and see what differences they make and if those differences may or may not be worth the health loss to you.

A few problems with that though:

1. Critical hits and the +damage from higher dagger mastery is pretty much useless. Why? Base dagger damage is useless. You'll get about 3% more critical hits and the base damage difference from 14 to 16 dagger mastery is only 7% (remember that you although you negate 5 armor per mastery up to rank 12, past that you only negate 2 per rank.) Lets be _very_ generous and say you get a 10% damage increase on a 7-17 damage weapon. Congratulations, that's +1 damage. Keeping in mind that with GDW you will get +20 damage per hit and with asuran scan you can get +75% damage per hit, you can see how the increase is nothing.

2. Using skills means you don't get the double strike increase benefit. Obviously if you were making a dagger chain + dagger mastery could be useful, but were talking about straight out no-skills damage here, so the skills benefit is irrelevant.

3. Almost no effect again. The difference between a .99 attack rate and 1.03 attack rate means you will get an average of 1 extra attack every 25 seconds. So, if you use absolutely no skills at all and just c-space for the entire battle, you MIGHT get 1 or 2 more attacks in. As far as energy is concerned you should be swimming in it anyway, so even if you get 3% more critical strikes you aren't going to need it.

4. Yeah... would you rather trigger live vicariously and vigorous spirit one more time per battle to heal for 15 health, or would you rather just have +75 health? Not to mention all those points you would have to sink in just to get the mediocre heal. Those are horrible skills, let healers heal kthx.

5. I can agree with this.

Here's a hard and fast rule: if you have 70 armor and are going to be staying in melee for an entire fight, giving up 75 health for +1 damage and an extra attack that will happen once in a blue moon is stupid unless the enemies are incredibly weak and have no chance of killing you.

Tom Swift · Oct 20, 2008, 05:10 AM // 05:10

lol

Hard and fast rules do not begin with the word "if," that's why they are hard and fast.

The problem is, we don't know if he fits under your rule because we do not know what kind of playing the OP is looking at.

Everyone is assuming he means for general play. But, he did not specify.

Is he shadow form farming? Is he taking a bonder monk where low health might actually be a benefit? Is he looking at a build for general game play? (If so, i already gave my opinion that sup dm runes are "generally" not a good idea - you are, of course, correct that in general the small benefits from a sup dm would not be worth it)

But, without more information we just don't know if general play in the usual style is really what he is looking at. So just saying "Sup runes are bad" without mentioning all factors seemed rather unhelpful.