Curse

Um Yeah · Jan 09, 2009, 04:01 AM // 04:01

I can't believe the people saying Anet/Izzy didn't intend for this to happen. Even if he somehow couldn't foresee it when they released factions, he reverted the nerf for pve when pvp/pve split was made. He knew that people could and would maintain it permanently because people did just that before its original nerf. I doubt that he didn't foresee people maintaining it permanently after the pvp/pve split buff, but idk, maybe he really is that retarded.

Productivity · Jan 09, 2009, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Tanks are bad in Guild Wars. If you play, play with or see a need for tanks you are bad at Guild Wars.

bungusmaximus · Jan 09, 2009, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Tank = character with an over-defensive build that doesn't kill and is therefore baed.

Tanking = a technique used to bodyblock baddies so they can't reach your backline and AoE kills them more easily. This technique can be performed by any warrior that is protted well and is therefore good.

Hell I completed Stygian Veil in a PUG while the tank dropped, we just snared the baddies and danced around them while we nuked them. Tanks are a nice foolproof way to PUG hard areas, and if it works for people just stick with it, but there's much much more ways to do things, faster, better and more fun ways.

pumpkin pie · Jan 09, 2009, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Don't understand what you guys mean by tanks are bad? and tanks are not needed?

What happens to all the tank class/profession? aren't those class/profession also fun to play as well?

and no, I doubt very much that Arena Net would choose one class over another, I basically tank with whatever class/profession that i am playing, I actually mobs everything lol, unless i am playing my survivor character (challenge reach GWAMM with 0 deaths)

btw, imho, off course Shadow Form is meant to be maintain if you can, idefinitely, otherwise, how do you explain the part, when it ends you have 51 or 45 (can't remember) health left part of the skill, so that you maintain it or else you die.

tasha · Jan 09, 2009, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Tank = character with an over-defensive build that doesn't kill and is therefore baed.

Tanking = a technique used to bodyblock baddies so they can't reach your backline and AoE kills them more easily. This technique can be performed by any warrior that is protted well and is therefore good.

^ This. Playing pure tank is so boring it makes me want to go outside again - its slow, repetative and boring. Far more entertaining to switch a couple of buff skills for more defensive ones and use the skills of rest of your team to get better, faster results. Oh and you can do it with pretty much any profession, I regularly end up taking up the Tanking role on my Ranger as we often lack a more traditional frontline character.

blood4blood · Jan 09, 2009, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Invinci-farmer != tank. To be a "good" tank requires a player who understands the AI well, knows how to draw & keep aggro. It's boring and unnecessary in GW, I agree, but just about any class can do it if the player knows how. I prefer hero MM/MB for meatshields.

Coraline Jones · Jan 09, 2009, 05:08 PM // 17:08

I will agree that, generally speaking, a "tank" build in Guild Wars is pretty useless because of the way the game works. There's no need to tank because there's better ways to play, like using your melee characters to do damage and apply pressure, and expecting your healers to run a decent protection game.

However, I will totally disagree that "tank profession" in general is bad, because that's just ridiculous. If the game is built right, then it works out and it's a highly useful profession. The next NCSoft game is Aion: Tower of Destiny, and there's a tank profession in that game. Just about every MMO out there has some semblance of a party tank, and people pay real money every month to keep playing them. So if they were such a bad idea and lame, then people sure don't mind paying a monthly fee to keep punishing themselves.

As for the opening question to this thread, I think the short of it is that Guild Wars has lots of design problems. Without the shadow magic, the Assassin basically becomes a joke profession and nobody will play it. But when you make shadow magic useful, then it gets exploited to death.

This is a little off the subject, but I think that this is why there's so little commentary about Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars 1 has tons of cracks in the model, but now they are stuck with a huge player base that has gotten used to it. GW2 is expected to fix all the design issues, but retain the so-called look-and-feel of the original game. Both of these conflict with each other.

MirkoTeran · Jan 09, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

I see 2 fails in this.
a) Using tanks in GW.
b) Random use of caps-lock and lack of spellchecker.

Bug John · Jan 09, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

It seems almost as absurd as picking the mesmer...

one would think that the sin was intended to be a class to "get in - kill - & get out". Of course with the emergence of perma, this role isn't even possible in PvE. some ones mindset at ANET changed when ppl started to delete thier sins a year ago...

I can't help but wonder why a different melee class like the war or derv weren't chosen to B the best tank...

dude, don't try to apply your biased logic to a video game, shut down your computer and go outside to breathe some fresh air

and of course, the whole "nerf sf QQ" crowd is here

seriously, there's no such thing as "balance" or "skill" in gw pve, with a decent build and some knowledge about monsters behavior in the area, pve is easy, with or without tanking / perma sf

Painbringer · Jan 09, 2009, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Because when the sin first came out it was a minion fodder support

They have buffed many things to get them to where they are. Be happy they did otherwise no one would ever want you in a group

Vazze · Jan 09, 2009, 07:11 PM // 19:11

as someone has said before: to sell factions.

Abedeus · Jan 09, 2009, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasha_darke

^ This. Playing pure tank is so boring it makes me want to go outside again - its slow, repetative and boring. Far more entertaining to switch a couple of buff skills for more defensive ones and use the skills of rest of your team to get better, faster results. Oh and you can do it with pretty much any profession, I regularly end up taking up the Tanking role on my Ranger as we often lack a more traditional frontline character.

That's why my Brute in City of Heroes is so awesome. Or Mastermind is more enjoyable than Minion Master. Or Gravity Controller better than Mesmer at Crowd Control. Or Defender on protting than Monk... And so on.

Skyy High · Jan 09, 2009, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coraline Jones

However, I will totally disagree that "tank profession" in general is bad, because that's just ridiculous. If the game is built right, then it works out and it's a highly useful profession. The next NCSoft game is Aion: Tower of Destiny, and there's a tank profession in that game. Just about every MMO out there has some semblance of a party tank, and people pay real money every month to keep playing them. So if they were such a bad idea and lame, then people sure don't mind paying a monthly fee to keep punishing themselves.

Plea to the majority is fallacious. In other words: Britney Spears selling albums doesn't make her a good singer.

Quote:

As for the opening question to this thread, I think the short of it is that the expansion professions have lots of design problems. Without the shadow magic, the Assassin basically becomes a joke profession and nobody will play it. But when you make shadow magic useful, then it gets exploited to death.

Fixed that for you.

Abedeus: does not compute? You're responding to someone who says that it's more fun to not be forced to just tank and to do some actual damage, and that it's perfectly possible to do that in GW, and you respond with "That's why CoH is more awesome"? How does that make any sense?

Abedeus · Jan 09, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Abedeus: does not compute? You're responding to someone who says that it's more fun to not be forced to just tank and to do some actual damage, and that it's perfectly possible to do that in GW, and you respond with "That's why CoH is more awesome"? How does that make any sense?

Can you do that with PuGs? No. Mentality is tank and spank.

In CoV/CoH, people don't want passive tanks. Tanks have to deal damage and be aggro magnets. Because in GW, usually tank doesn't have to worry about "threat" or whatever it's called. In CoX you have to watch it and deal a lot of damage as a tank.

Because if your Corruptor or Blaster deal 200 damage to all mobs around you, and if you managed to deal only 100... It's more than sure mobs will run at your squishies.

That's why in GW it's not hard to tank. And it's faster without tanking. But pugs don't believe it.

Fay Vert · Jan 10, 2009, 02:24 AM // 02:24

SF was a god mode skill balanced with a severe drawback. When players figured out how to have the god mode without the drawback the skill was broke, but ANet fiddled while Rome burned and now its too late as a nerf back to original intent would cause more QQ than its worth. Plus, they ultimate nerfed all farming with the rate of kill throttle so they figure it really doesn't matter.

Once upon a time they cared enough to put another mob in the raptor cave, now its just help yourself to event items.

cthulhu reborn · Jan 10, 2009, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Warriors are still the best tanks in the game - thanks to their 96/116 armour they are able they have enough defense to bodyblock without needing waste a single skill on self healing or protection which leaves the you 8 skills for killing.

I'm sorry but that is the biggest load of crap I've heard/seen in a long time. In PvE where you have monsters that are level 28 or higher 116 armour is not even close to what you need to prevent damage. Also you complete forget that life stealing, conditions and life degen in general completely bypass that armour. The only good warrior tank is the terratank who uses obsidian flesh to make sure spells fail against the warrior and usually the dolyak signet is used to make sure that the armour value is finally enough to reduce direct damage enough that the warrior can last.

No the warrior cannot survive at all with just the armour. And since players are generally not smart enough to understand things like aggro circles and why ranger enemies with longbows have a bigger aggro circle, the warrior's aggro is often doomed to fail.

In the end the warrior still needs support to stay alive for extend periods of time and he/she can only last a while by dedicating the whole skill bar to tanking and then needs a healer at some point to keep it up which is where the aggro thing is a pain.

Since there is no warrior skill that can influence aggro it's always going to be very hit and miss. Hell, an earth ele only needs one skill to have a better armour rating than any warrior. Try armour of earth, stoneflesh aura and obsidian flesh as basis for an ele tank and you'll see you basically take no damage. Add stone striker and mantra of earth and your energy is great (not to mention giving your off-hand +10 vs earth damage mod) and a ward of stability against knockdown.

It's just that the warrior cannot do this well without support. Even the ele build is not invincible (for example some dervish or spirit attacks that remove enchants) but it just goes to show that the warrior really isn't the best tank. There are too many damage sources that bypass armour and it's a simple fact that you need to be able to maintain obsidian flesh or shadow form to be able to tank well in this game and ele's and sins can do that better.

Div · Jan 10, 2009, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Or you could run better monk bars and free up the slot for more damage and faster clearing!

Daenara · Jan 10, 2009, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Because they didn't want to deal with the collective QQ from farmers by nerfing Shadow Form into a non permanent enchantment? Pretty sure they didn't sit down and decide to make assassin's into tanks.

daze · Jan 11, 2009, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Tank = character with an over-defensive build that doesn't kill and is therefore baed.

Tanking = a technique used to bodyblock baddies so they can't reach your backline and AoE kills them more easily. This technique can be performed by any warrior that is protted well and is therefore good.

Hell I completed Stygian Veil in a PUG while the tank dropped, we just snared the baddies and danced around them while we nuked them. Tanks are a nice foolproof way to PUG hard areas, and if it works for people just stick with it, but there's much much more ways to do things, faster, better and more fun ways.

I agree with most of this. I never understood why most GWGuru "know it all's" are all singing the "tanking is the devil" song.

I agree that running pure tank builds are boring, but so is bonding, and so is Human MM IMHO.

The tried and true "tank and spank" method seems to be still an effective way to beat the hardest of areas (DoA HM) with no trouble.

Maybe people are so against tanking because of the retarded wammos out there who dont know how to maintain aggro and pull to a wall/corner. Or maybe most of the GWGuru "Know it all's" jump on the "tanking is the devil" bandwagon simply because they have read it in these threads countless times and feel safer to regurgitate other peoples ideas than to develop their own.

IMO tanking is not bad, its just slower and more steady and more idiot friendly. (im not saying idiot proof)

Arkantos · Jan 11, 2009, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

I agree with most of this. I never understood why most GWGuru "know it all's" are all singing the "tanking is the devil" song.

I agree that running pure tank builds are boring, but so is bonding, and so is Human MM IMHO.

The tried and true "tank and spank" method seems to be still an effective way to beat the hardest of areas (DoA HM) with no trouble.

Maybe people are so against tanking because of the retarded wammos out there who dont know how to maintain aggro and pull to a wall/corner. Or maybe most of the GWGuru "Know it all's" jump on the "tanking is the devil" bandwagon simply because they have read it in these threads countless times and feel safer to regurgitate other peoples ideas than to develop their own.

IMO tanking is not bad, its just slower and more steady and more idiot friendly. (im not saying idiot proof)

Tanking is not bad. Tanking is one of the smartest tactics in PvE. However, pure tanks are bad. If your team needs someone who is dedicated to tank, your team doing something wrong. Maybe people are calling tanks bad because, well, they're bad. I don't understand why you have to call someone a know it all simply because they're saying tanks are bad.