Curse

Carinae · Sep 29, 2009, 01:13 AM // 01:13

@syphonus - one problem with MoD testing is that it's very hard to get a level playing field.

Does one test with buffs or without? I opted for no buffs just to see the raw numbers. The problem with this approach is that Asura Scan is a percentage damage increase, which means WOTA appears to benefit more than the other elites. (due to high damage crits) However, other buffs just offer a flat increase.

Without ANY buffs I got these scores:

WotA: 87 dps
LF: 93 dps
MS: 84 dps

Have you tested LF vs WotA?

Are you recasting AS every time the MoD dies, as you would have to in actual gameplay? Probably not.

Conversely, when testing MS does one just cycle DB/MS or restart the chain? If you restart, you won't get the second Deep Wound counted correctly. See what I mean?

Additionally, MoD doesn't report the effect of AoE, so even occasionally getting a second DB from MS is going to raise the effectiveness of MS in a difficult to measure way. One could easily see scenarios where MS more than makes up for the difference.

One thing is clear: None of the elites leaps out as clearly superior offensively. Flashing Blades offers the strongest effect at least when paired with JS+FF.

syphonus · Sep 29, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

One thing is clear: None of the elites leaps out as clearly superior offensively. Flashing Blades offers the strongest effect at least when paired with JS+FF.

I guess I can agree with that

Though, I've gotta say, I have been running into energy problems.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Sep 29, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

You know I love you, but sometimes...

WotA is superior to MS at single target DPS -when enemies die of 1 chain-. Makes sense, since it's a buff that applies to Lead-Offhand, marginal as it may be. So what you're saying is that MS doesn't do crap to boost your Lead+Offhand. Big deal?

Look, you can run almost any Blossom combo in PvE and have wimpy stuff dying within 1 chain. It's stuff that doesn't that warrant the usage of MS. Granted, now with Scan and SoH and whathaveyou those enemies have become increasingly rare, but at least MS has a function outside just letting you deal with trivial stuff a little bit faster.

tl;dr: To each his own.

Bobby, I never said what you quoted me for, it's not even my style. D: Ups.

Only thing I said in this thread is that taking LF is almost the same as taking WoTA (all buffs considered) only that WoTA benefits your lead/off-hand/dual better. Also that MS is somewhat better anyway.

Bobby2 · Sep 29, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Wait what? I still blame you for all of this!

Jaigoda · Sep 29, 2009, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Why is everyone arguing about which bad elite to take? Just grab Flashing Blades or Fox's Promise (ups, your blocking argument went out the window...) and be done with it. Or, you could be wierd and take something like "Coward!" or "Charge!" or even Shattering Assault.

And to the Moebius advocates, you do realize MS slows down your attack speed a good bit? Slower attack speed = less SY coverage. Less SY coverage (just for a tiny ounce of extra damage) = bad. And of course, everyone brings buffs in PvE, which means your DPS is going to go through the roof compared to any Moebius build. There is all this argument over DPS, yet if you just grab Barbs or SoH, JS>FF will surpass MS>DB in sustained single-target DPS, if lacking a bit in sustained AoE DPS.

Also, the cycle for MS>DB is off. There are two possibilities. One is that you hit with MS, then DB, cancel your autoattack, and start DB as soon as it recharges. This results in the cycle being every 2.8911 seconds. However, you only get 3 attacks per cycle. You get right around 1.03 attacks per second. If you let the autoattack in, you get a cycle every 3.5644 seconds, but ~4.2 attacks every cycle (taking into account the chance for double strike on the autoattack). This equates an attack speed of ~1.18 attacks per second.

JS>FF>DB, on the other hand, has a cycle every 3.33 seconds, constricted by Fox Fang's recharge. In this time period, you can chain the following: JS>FF>DB>JS>autoattack. This can be done just in time for the recharge of FF. So, now you have an attack speed of 6 attacks per cycle, or ~1.81 attacks per second. If you don't use the second JS in the cycle, you get an attack speed of ~1.5 seconds.

What does this mean? It means that every second, you get about 80% more out of damage buffs with JS>FF than with MS>DB. Barbs at 14 Curses is +14 damage per hit. 14 * .80 = 11.2. This means you're getting 11.2 more DPS out of Barbs than Moebius Strike would. Don't even get me started about SoH. Oh, and of course all of this is multiplied further out of proportion by Asuran Scan.

This is the reason why JS>FF feels so much stronger than MS>DB. It's not because it gets to DB faster, it's becuase it just attacks a lot faster, plain and simple.

Tenebrae · Sep 29, 2009, 08:42 PM // 20:42

I was reading the whole thread and i gotta say you guys gotta know the difference between playstyles. If this is a battle of "hey , look at my DPS , my e-peen is better than yours" while taking all aggro ( to count DB +dmg ) , ok , fine for me but there are other playstiles about MS/DB combo and with some elites around that do a good job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Flashing Blades would be better all-around. For the JS+FF combo, WoTA is a poor elite choice, period. So, is LF.

Woah no , really no. Flashing blades ? thats like a warrior with Gladiators Defense pal , its so lame and only works against phys attacks. Ok , stupid AI will auto attack you and you will still deal damage to the caster attacker but i wont draw all aggro on me to make a decent use of that elite.
And no , LF is bloody good. If you play like "hey guys , do your job and i will get some fast kills with your buffs" with SoH and GDW on you , this happens with the right combo :
- Select non-called target ( mostly those who run to your monks ) and asuran+combo+autoattack . Target drops fast.

And about the elites :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Temple Strike - (~EH) expensive, highly situational, doesn't bring much all-around. Poor use of elite skill.

Locust's Fury - (BAD) trivial single target damage boost. Poor use of elite skill.

WoTA - (BAD) trivial single target damage boost. Poor use of elite skill.

Flashing Blades - (GOOD) At last, a viable elite for JS+FF. Survivability is good. Deals some damage back.

Moebius - (DEPENDS) not needed for JS+FF, required for GFox. When paired with GFox is still best all-around option.

Coward! - (???) might be a useful choice for a JS+FF Sin. This might be better than TS (@traversc) provided you can kill the target before it gets up. Cheaper, better shutdown, works against any class. Also lets you keep /W for SY!

-Agree on Temple
-Hell no on Locusts
-Nerfed IAS not worth , agree.
-Disagree, dont find it worth .
-Moebius is awesome
-Coward , just dont see it

As for the MS/DB vs JS/FF/DB discussion im gonna go with the first one for cases with higher foe lvl , being main melee or first drawing aggro and/or places with good blocking spots ; otherwise the second option is better with buffs imo.

Jaigoda · Sep 29, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Woah no , really no. Flashing blades ? thats like a warrior with Gladiators Defense pal , its so lame and only works against phys attacks. Ok , stupid AI will auto attack you and you will still deal damage to the caster attacker but i wont draw all aggro on me to make a decent use of that elite.

Here's the difference: Warriors are defined by their elite skill. Taking a bad elite means having a bad build. This is a build that can run perfectly fine without an elite skill at all. Hence, elites should strictly be compared to the other viable elites, not to their overall usefulness. WotA and LF are both horrible, so even less-than-great elites such as FB and Fox's Promise actually become good options. And while trying to play the tanking role isn't desirable, if there's nothing better to do and it doesn't detract from the maximum DPS, there's no reason not to take it. Also, I still don't understand why everyone is ignoring Fox's Promise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

And no , LF is bloody good. If you play like "hey guys , do your job and i will get some fast kills with your buffs" with SoH and GDW on you , this happens with the right combo :
- Select non-called target ( mostly those who run to your monks ) and asuran+combo+autoattack . Target drops fast.

LF in this case (with only one autoattack per 3.33 sec cycle) is really not worthwhile. It provides around a 10% IAS on top of Critical Agility, or about 0.4 more attacks per cycle. IMO, you're going to be doing much more with a 75% maintainable block (FB) or anti-block (FP) elite than Locust's. However, if you are running with a ton of extra buffs, LF could be a pretty viable elite. I still wouldn't take it if I was H/H'ing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

As for the MS/DB vs JS/FF/DB discussion im gonna go with the first one for cases with higher foe lvl , being main melee or first drawing aggro and/or places with good blocking spots ; otherwise the second option is better with buffs imo.

I would really love to respond to this, but I'm really not sure what you're saying. There's just way too much grammarfail. It sounds like you're saying that MS>DB is somehow better against higher-level enemies.. Hmmm...

AtomicMew · Sep 29, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae

No. Daze is only truly useful against HM ele bosses, in which case you want BHA so you can apply it at range. You never want to run in against a ele boss, especially on a Sin, to apply Daze.

You're again forgetting the part where BHA requires replacing one of your heroes.

Quote:

Flashing Blades would generate more DPS boost than WoTA, and have and SOLID additional effect as well.

I never EVER said that WOTA was better than FB. In fact, FB being superior follows quite naturally from my arguments. It's like you want to argue with me just for arguing, even when we basically agree on this particular point. Let me quote myself several times so you don't forget:

The point isn't that WoTA is a great elite choice.
The point isn't that WoTA is a great elite choice.

Quote:

Flashing Blades would be better all-around. For the JS+FF combo, WoTA is a poor elite choice, period. So, is LF.

The point isn't that WoTA is a great elite choice.

Quote:

The strong takedown of GFox+GFang is most definitely missed when not there

You'll end up doing more DPS with JS+FF+WOTA, which was the biggest point of this entire discussion.

Carinae · Sep 30, 2009, 12:26 AM // 00:26

@traversc - Yea, I'm not looking to fight. Peace.

I played with JS+FF for two days and did several VQs with it, and I really felt GFox+GFang had better quick-takedown. However, talking with Chthon and retesting yet again, and now it seems JS+FF is just as strong, if not better.

I honestly don't know WHY the old bar feels so strong, maybe it's mental, but maybe it's the Deep Wound. As I pointed out to Chthon, a DW is not quite the same as a 100hp strike. It reduces their hp by 100...and you are not the only source of damage.

I dunno, just wondering out loud I guess.

Bobby2 · Sep 30, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

This is the reason why JS>FF feels so much stronger than MS>DB. It's not because it gets to DB faster, it's becuase it just attacks a lot faster, plain and simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Several people

Locust's Fury!!!11!! BUFFZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

Try Jagged-Exhausting-MS/DB for lols

Yes I know EA has the same recharge as GPS, but coming in right before MS this isn't a big deal.

EDIT: also, Fox's Promise is pretty good.

Tenebrae · Sep 30, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

WotA and LF are both horrible, so even less-than-great elites such as FB and Fox's Promise actually become good options. And while trying to play the tanking role isn't desirable, if there's nothing better to do and it doesn't detract from the maximum DPS, there's no reason not to take it. Also, I still don't understand why everyone is ignoring Fox's Promise.

Heres the thing , you could say SF is horrible for normal gameplay but for farming and SC ? its awesome. Same happens with playstyles , if you are mister DPS to kill calledtarget fast well , those elites might not be good for you but if you like to use them, know how to , and stack buffs with proper team sync , i can tell you LF is great. If you dont believe me ok , i have no interest in making you a LF user

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

LF in this case (with only one autoattack per 3.33 sec cycle) is really not worthwhile. It provides around a 10% IAS on top of Critical Agility, or about 0.4 more attacks per cycle. IMO, you're going to be doing much more with a 75% maintainable block (FB) or anti-block (FP) elite than Locust's. However, if you are running with a ton of extra buffs, LF could be a pretty viable elite. I still wouldn't take it if I was H/H'ing.

Thats what i said above , you are seeing LF as an elite to complete a "cycle" , wrong. With that elite you gotta focus in hitting as much as possible on a stationary target and using skills that are only worth using for good bonuses . Even not using skills you have an 83% percent chance of hitting twice in 0,94 sec ( attack speed with CA ) and if you have per-hit-bonuses like GDW , SOH and JI .Its a good damage, maybe not the best , but definately not bad.
Now think from the outside , what would happen if LF gets buffed and ads for example a bonus per hit if foe/you is enchanted or if foe is suffering from a condition ? it would be bloody overpowered. Imagine a sin with only 2 skills ( asuran/fast condition skill and LF ) doing +2....10 ( +buffs ) per attack every 0.42 sec.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

I would really love to respond to this, but I'm really not sure what you're saying. There's just way too much grammarfail. It sounds like you're saying that MS>DB is somehow better against higher-level enemies.. Hmmm...

MS>DB gets more AoE armor ignoring damage than the other combo and can be done more times on a non-called target that has higher level. If you do it on a lvl 17-21 .... a little luck with critical strikes and you will never reach second DB.
Talking about grammar , sorry for not being english or american but i think that you can still understand me. Feel free to pm me for an explanation in spanish if you like

.

zwei2stein · Sep 30, 2009, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Synophous, redo that test with Fertile Season spirit up.

Then redo it with Great Dwarf Armor affecting dps meter.

Then with both.

Scythe O F Glory · Sep 30, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Or you could take Ursan. Knock out critical agility (you don't even really need it) and throw in a res sig, and there you go, you're blowing up pve mobs like its nobody's business. Then again, blowing up pve mobs doesn't mean much...

Jaigoda · Sep 30, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Heres the thing , you could say SF is horrible for normal gameplay but for farming and SC ? its awesome. Same happens with playstyles , if you are mister DPS to kill calledtarget fast well , those elites might not be good for you but if you like to use them, know how to , and stack buffs with proper team sync , i can tell you LF is great. If you dont believe me ok , i have no interest in making you a LF user

.

Just so you know, before the dagger skill buffs, I was a huge advocate of LF and it was the main build I played. But I realize that in this build, it's just not worth it. However, I did say somewhere in my last post that LF could be useful if you had a bunch of buffs stacked. Otherwise, it's very mediocre and there are much better elite choices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Thats what i said above , you are seeing LF as an elite to complete a "cycle" , wrong. With that elite you gotta focus in hitting as much as possible on a stationary target and using skills that are only worth using for good bonuses . Even not using skills you have an 83% percent chance of hitting twice in 0,94 sec ( attack speed with CA ) and if you have per-hit-bonuses like GDW , SOH and JI .Its a good damage, maybe not the best , but definately not bad.

First off, the double strike chance is multiplied, not added. LF with 14 Dagger Mastery gives exactly a 59.8% chance of double strike (basically 60% for all intents and purposes. And in this case, autoattacking is the least optimal option. Jagged Strike and Fox Fangs will always be faster because of the .5sec activation (you'd have to have close to a 100% double strike chance to compete with them), and Death is just a double strike on crack. Thus, if you had a choice between an attack skill and an autoattack here, you'd always pick the attack skill. And there is only one point in the chain where you have no other option than to autoattack. That means that in the entire chain, LF has a chance to trigger only once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Now think from the outside , what would happen if LF gets buffed and ads for example a bonus per hit if foe/you is enchanted or if foe is suffering from a condition ? it would be bloody overpowered. Imagine a sin with only 2 skills ( asuran/fast condition skill and LF ) doing +2....10 ( +buffs ) per attack every 0.42 sec.

Of course that would be overpowered, but there's absolutely no point saying "oh, this elite would be great if they buffed it into heaven." Unless you know the buff's going to happen, that's an empty argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

MS>DB gets more AoE armor ignoring damage than the other combo and can be done more times on a non-called target that has higher level. If you do it on a lvl 17-21 .... a little luck with critical strikes and you will never reach second DB.
Talking about grammar , sorry for not being english or american but i think that you can still understand me. Feel free to pm me for an explanation in spanish if you like

.

While your argument is true, I don't think it's really a big enough point to warrant using MS>DB. JS>FF still does a good amount more damage (and WAY more with buffs), and really doesn't have much less DB spammage. If it kills single targets faster, that just means it gets to the next foe even faster, rendering DB's AoE damage less useful.

Hey, and no problem with the English. I'm trying to learn Spanish, and I can understand how hard learning a language is.

syphonus · Sep 30, 2009, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Synophous, redo that test with Fertile Season spirit up.

Then redo it with Great Dwarf Armor affecting dps meter.

Then with both.

Since I only have r1 Deldrimor, tests are inconclusive at best. Someone else would be better off doing this.

EDIT: Though with OotV and SoH on, I saw a much bigger margin. With GDA and Fertile up, I got:

162 DPS with MS
193 DPS with WotA
189 DPS with LF (though it expired after GDA, so the 1sec casting time didn't come into effect)
169 DPS with no elite.

These are probably off anyway, since GDA only lasts 23 seconds for me.

Tenebrae · Sep 30, 2009, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Just so you know, before the dagger skill buffs, I was a huge advocate of LF and it was the main build I played. But I realize that in this build, it's just not worth it. However, I did say somewhere in my last post that LF could be useful if you had a bunch of buffs stacked. Otherwise, it's very mediocre and there are much better elite choices.

Maybe , but im so sure that flashing blades and fox promise arent either. Again , i tell you it highly depends on zone/mission you are playing :
- Drawing all agro to make the whole mob attack you so Flashing blades do something noticeable ? no thanks , bad idea . It only protects from autoattacks and phys attacks.
- Using an elite for not being blocked ? yeah , good on the paper but the truth is that if you are not gonna face blocking stances ( 75% of cases imo ) that skill is redundant/useless. And if you are going to face it , just take an unblockable combo and thats it. Ofc it ends if you are blinded/hexed and fail a single attack. See my point ? i can say those elites are bad too , depends on how you look at them

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

First off, the double strike chance is multiplied, not added. LF with 14 Dagger Mastery gives exactly a 59.8% chance of double strike (basically 60% for all intents and purposes. Bla bla

I dont know where did you get that but the skill description clearly says an additional 50% . If it wasnt so , with 14 dagg you would have 28% chance and with "that" LF you say would be 42% ¿?¿? anyway , in my experience , pretty sure its around 80% .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

While your argument is true, I don't think it's really a big enough point to warrant using MS>DB. JS>FF still does a good amount more damage (and WAY more with buffs), and really doesn't have much less DB spammage. If it kills single targets faster, that just means it gets to the next foe even faster, rendering DB's AoE damage less useful.

Is not way way more with buffs , little more yes but as i said , depends on situation. Im not saying is better because is AoE armor ignoring damage like im a brainless kid , ofc if you are not going to take advantage of blocking foes path and attack a non called target to pump out more DB then is almost the same as the other combo.
I was just refering the higher enemy level because the MS/DB highly relies on repeating that chain and if the foe dies fast , that combo has no case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Hey, and no problem with the English. I'm trying to learn Spanish, and I can understand how hard learning a language is.

Great , i dont know in english but here in spain the word "fail" doesnt sound so good so if you notice some wrong grammar , that word doesnt help a lot . Now you know you can ask me for things in spanish if you like haha

.

RadaArashi · Sep 30, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

I'd take Coward off the elites list, it's pointless in PvE since targets won't kite unless they're under AoE damage most of the time, YMLaD is so much better.

Edit: Actually scratch that. 3 PvE skill limit

Jagged Strike, Fox Fangs, Death Blossom, Way of the Assassin, Critical Agility, Asuran Scan, "Save Yourselves", Distracting Blow/Assassin's Remedy.

IMO.

Bobby2 · Sep 30, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Traitor. You were the only other guy to argue in favour of Exhausting Assault. Now I'm a sad panda.

RadaArashi · Oct 01, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Exhausting Assault is to be used with Moebius Strike IMO, with Sneak Attack as lead you got pretty decent shutdown :3

AtomicMew · Oct 01, 2009, 04:11 AM // 04:11

I think WotA may actually end up being the best elite, actually. Used not as just a critical buffer, but also an IAS, Comparing Critical Agility to WotA (alone) I wasn't able to detect much of a difference on MoD, but maybe I'm just not doing the chain properly or maybe my reflexes suck. At any rate, using WotA as an IAS lets you use an aditional PvE skill. BuH! provides an average increase of 8.3% DPS. EBSoH or FH! look like decent options, too.

Of course the +24 armor from CA agility is a loss, but I don't know how much people actually care about that.

Anyway, I'd like to know if other people get similar results comparing CA to WotA or even with no IAS.