Curse

Bobby2 · Oct 20, 2009, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Sephir, don't bother. Tenebrae is very versed in the skill of ignoring rational arguments. Just leave in the knowledge that you are right.

_Nihilist_ · Oct 20, 2009, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Comparing Shadow Form to any other single skill is folly in and of itself if you are trying to prove that it is not broken.

You can't compare Shadow Form to Obsidian Flesh in any equal light because they aren't equal.

1) SF prevents targeted spells and causes all attacks to miss, OF only prevents targeted spells

2) SF being permanently maintained has no drawbacks whatsoever, as the "you lose all but 5...50 health" clause won't kick in, maintaining OF means that you move 75% slower, you can't circumvent/ignore the downside of the skill

Bobby2 · Oct 20, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33

You may deem it broken but evidently it is allowed to exist. Why get so worked up? It's only PvE.

BlackSephir · Oct 20, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Nihilist_

Comparing Shadow Form to any other single skill is folly in and of itself if you are trying to prove that it is not broken.

Can't read, can you?
I specifically said

Quote:

SF is broken, but your "IT SHOULDNT BE MAINTANABLE BECAUSE THIS WAY YOU CAN MAINTAIN IT" is idiotic, stupid and moronic.

but I guess expecting something from guru users was my mistake.

Lieutenant Banana · Oct 20, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04

...Really? What part of "I don't want this to devolve into a flame war" DON'T people get?

Quote:

Also, my assassin is my main. He is in no way shape or form my "perma," he's my assassin. Yes most of the things I tend to do nowadays usually involve the use of SF, but be honest with yourself, 58 day old man. What else is there to do? Just because the skill is good is no reason to hate on it. Just because it works well enough to make it "dominate" a class, as you say, is no reason to bash on it. It should just inspire you to make one yourself, stop crying about everyone else doing it, and stop making ridiculous flame-bait threads.

I'm glad to see someone doesn't view the Assassin as purely a vehicle for running permaform. But again, you--and as far as I can tell, everyone else who's been criticizing me--haven't really read the actual content of my original post, and my subsequent rebuttals. I'm NOT complaining about the mere fact of SF's existence. What I'm COMPLAINING about is the fact that it's turned an entire class into a niche build, and the mentality that that's created--the instant tendency to dismiss any Assassin that doesn't run permaform as somehow lacking. And like I've said from the beginning, I fully acknowledge the limitations of my knowledge...which makes it hard for me to see how this is flame-bait. If others choose to only read a few words from my posts and assume I'm just QQ'ing about SF itself, that's their problem.

Quote:

And with regards to all those who posted saying there are very effective builds for sin for pve besides SF(Crit Scythe, MS/DB, JS etc). Yes you are correct, but how many groups (beginner areas maybe, but High End?) will actually accept you running those builds?

I suppose we should just be glad that our heros cant say: NO! IM NOT PARTYING WITH YOU, YOUR NOT SF!

THANK YOU. You've just backed up what I've been trying (and apparently failing) to get across all along--the hypothetical existence of other viable sin builds doesn't address my complaint at all, since almost none of those builds are utilized in regular gameplay anymore, particularly in high-end areas but also in many low-end ones...note the impromptu survey of sins I took in Ran Musu a week or so ago. As I've said all along, if anyone can show me concrete evidence that the Assassin is thriving in PvE as a diverse melee class is welcome to, and I'll readily acknowledge that I'm wrong at that point. But since out of the myriad of people who have been bashing me thus far, only ONE has actually stated that he runs an Assassin with more than one build, my thesis stands.

ogre_jd · Oct 20, 2009, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Well, I run a Critical Barrage build, 3 or 4 different Dagger builds (trying to wean myself off of Death Blossom; the main problem in that seems to be the excessive recharge times of many Dagger attacks

and, yes, have even been messing with Shadow Form builds in the last two weeks or so attempting to find one that works for me (that 3 second window between SF's recharge and it's duration is easy to miss when you're slow-reflexed and have a crappy connection) to perhaps attempt to farm a little extra cash now that I've seen just how expensive Vabbian armor can be. :P

Still, I'm sure there's plenty of other actual Assassin players out there (including a few in this thread) - it's just that we're mostly quiet types who have actually been playing our Assassins because we like them rather than having jumped on the bandwagon once they became the farming profession of choice.

Bobby2 · Oct 20, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Blossom spammers will always have a use. At least the people I play with seem to think so. Lucky me, I guess.

Lieutenant Banana · Oct 22, 2009, 01:57 PM // 13:57

...and finally, I get what I was hoping for: the acknowledgment of the existence of melee sins by virtue of real fact rather than hypotheticals. I'm all too happy at this point to admit that in light of the last two posts, I may have been wrong about the complete downfall of the Assassin as a melee class...although I kinda wish there were more than two replies

Quote:

Blossom spammers will always have a use. At least the people I play with seem to think so. Lucky me, I guess.

Lucky you indeed. I've had the good fortune to recently fall in with a guild that also appreciates the value of the premier physical DPS class in the game, although as a compensatory measure I've had to learn a thing or two about dungeon running using the loathsome SF itself. (No, the irony does not escape me.)

Quote:

Well, I run a Critical Barrage build, 3 or 4 different Dagger builds (trying to wean myself off of Death Blossom; the main problem in that seems to be the excessive recharge times of many Dagger attacks and, yes, have even been messing with Shadow Form builds in the last two weeks or so attempting to find one that works for me (that 3 second window between SF's recharge and it's duration is easy to miss when you're slow-reflexed and have a crappy connection) to perhaps attempt to farm a little extra cash now that I've seen just how expensive Vabbian armor can be. :P

Still, I'm sure there's plenty of other actual Assassin players out there (including a few in this thread) - it's just that we're mostly quiet types who have actually been playing our Assassins because we like them rather than having jumped on the bandwagon once they became the farming profession of choice.

Interesting. I've always wanted to try Crit Barrage, but never seemed to get around to it--maybe I'll try that next. I, too, am trying to find a replacement for DB, but it's difficult--my favorite thus far is an AP build that uses powerful but long-recharge chains (I'm currently experimenting with Iron Palm-Falling Spider-AP-Twisting Fangs-SoTS if necessary. Energy-intensive, but works fairly well against single targets). And as you say, I'm sure that there are indeed others who continue to play the Assassin as a melee DPS class as opposed to or in addition to an invincible super-farmer...and having now actually heard from a couple of them, I'm perfectly willing to concede that point.

Bobby2 · Oct 22, 2009, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lieutenant Banana

...and finally, I get what I was hoping for: the acknowledgment of the existence of melee sins by virtue of real fact rather than hypotheticals. I'm all too happy at this point to admit that in light of the last two posts, I may have been wrong about the complete downfall of the Assassin as a melee class...although I kinda wish there were more than two replies

Check the threads on here mate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lieutenant Banana

Lucky you indeed. I've had the good fortune to recently fall in with a guild that also appreciates the value of the premier physical DPS class in the game, although as a compensatory measure I've had to learn a thing or two about dungeon running using the loathsome SF itself. (No, the irony does not escape me.)

The fate of all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lieutenant Banana

Interesting. I've always wanted to try Crit Barrage, but never seemed to get around to it--maybe I'll try that next. I, too, am trying to find a replacement for DB, but it's difficult--my favorite thus far is an AP build that uses powerful but long-recharge chains (I'm currently experimenting with Iron Palm-Falling Spider-AP-Twisting Fangs-SoTS if necessary. Energy-intensive, but works fairly well against single targets). And as you say, I'm sure that there are indeed others who continue to play the Assassin as a melee DPS class as opposed to or in addition to an invincible super-farmer...and having now actually heard from a couple of them, I'm perfectly willing to concede that point.

Crit Barrage sucks. AP daggers can be awesome.

A/W
CritStrikes 8+, whatever
Dagger 12+1+1
DArts: the rest

Black Mantis Thrust
Golden Fang Strike/Jungle Strike
Wild Blow/Malicious Strike
Blades of Steel/Death Blossom
Assassin's Promise
I Am the Strongest!
Critical Agility
Asuran Scan

RadaArashi · Oct 23, 2009, 06:30 AM // 06:30

I prefer

DM: 12
DA 10
CS 13

Assassin's Promise
Shadow Fang
You Move Like a Dwarf!
Falling Lotus Strike
Twisting Fangs
Golden Phoenix Strike
Blades of Steel
Critical Agility

Dobermann · Oct 24, 2009, 09:02 AM // 09:02

/topic

RadaArashi · Oct 24, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

I used PermaForm like once because my guild needed someone to volunteer for balling up the mobs and tanking. I haven't played with them, or GW itself, in a while but they always let me run whatever I wanted because they trusted me I wouldn't be a headache.

I'd either run caster or Death Blossom spam. I dislike farming so I haven't tried it, when I do farm I go to plains of Jarin and DB/MS there or try to find new ways to use 105 sin

CagedinSanity · Oct 24, 2009, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I love my assassin. Her build isn't meta, though admittedly she's primarily PvE. I do run meta in PvP but otherwise, she's not always a permasin.

Darkwolfhall · Oct 31, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

I personally have only used perma for farming purposes. I beat all campaigns with a 1on1 attack chain (that i made based on my playing style)and it still performs very well for me. As long as you make sure you are in a balanced group, you should have no problem making it through anything in pve. Therefor the Assassin shall never die......

My Inner Ninja · Nov 16, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

The perma-sin has not "killed" the assassin class any more than lung cancer has killed smoking. As far as I know there are well over 100 skills defined to the Assassin class that do not include the 2 skills required to maintain Shadow Form. Indeed the reputation of the legend of the Assassin is quite misunderstood in the GW community but that is not the fault of the game developers, I refer you to the plethora of usable skills for Assassins, of which some of the most fearsome are Assassin only Critical Arts skills.

I must say, I find your romantic idea of the Assassin quite misleading. Assassins, famous for their ability to dispose of a target with overwhelming suppressive lethal power and retreating from the scene is well known, however, this is usually accomplished in complete stealth. The game mechanics of PvE erases any possibility for an Assassin to penetrate an enemy group and dispatch of a target with such impunity. Any PvE mob will instantly respond to an Assassin's presence as soon as it enters their Aggro range and it will be very, very difficult for that Sin to carry out his/her action unscathed, if at all. Alas, unlike your charming though pervasive epitaph of the great Assassin, GW has more than one dimension.

Enter PvP. In PvP the Assassin's traditional roles are applicable with great success. Lest you forget Assassins take advantage of blind spots in human senses and perception. A mob of NPC foes does not succumb to these sensory shortcomings. In PvE the fight is between robots and humans. If an assassin is able to penetrate a Robot Mob and take out the Monk, for example, he will not do so unnoticed and will probably not be able to avoid pursuit effectively, considering the bar restrictions which limits his ability to balance defense with the offensive prowess necessary to achieve a quick kill. Put this scenario against strict interpretations of the role of an assassin and you do not have an assassin. What you have is a medium armor specialized infantry unit, which is basically what assassins are in PvE. In contrast, all the failings of human senses and perception are exploitable in PvP. Sin spikes are infamous in some PvP conditions because of this fact. And they are effective because it is here that the traditional Assassin is in his element. Able to sneak up on a target without 'instantly' alerting its allies, dispatch that target, and retreat before its allies react with force, the GW Sin finds his true 'Shadow Form' in PvP scenarios.

I do most of my playing as an Assassin in Shadow Form. I am quite reluctant to use daggers in PvE because Assassins inherently lack the necessary balance between defense and offense to face up a large mob effectively. Certainly not in the same way that a Warrior or Dervish can. The role of the assassin in PvE is quite limited beyond the PermaForm or some secondary class hybridization; and that is mainly because the same 'target elimination' job can be accomplished by Warriors, Dervishes, or even Pet Rangers and with smaller risk. On the other hand, I get great joy from using a dagger assassin in RA, HA, and AB, where I normally run an all assassin skills bar.

I appreciate your attempt to shed light on an obvious contradiction about the Assassin in PvE, however, I hope you understand that there is more to the game than PvE, namely PvP, and it is inevitable that a class will be more suited to one over the other.

Kaleban · Nov 18, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

While the Assassin class is nowhere near as cool as its movie counterpart (the upcoming Ninja Assassin lol) and GW does suffer from some degree of narutardness, I find that playing a Sin is an exercise in patience.

The main problem, and it will always be so, is human nature itself. Most people are lazy by nature, and are more likely to base their build strategies (both solo and team) by what is posted as the "meta" on PvX Wiki. Throughout the years GW has been running, all builds have been subject to meta issues, from the humble Wammos, to the Mesmer class entirely. When was the last time you saw a group calling for any type of Mesmer that WASN'T a CoP nuker in PvE? I don't think most PvE players even know that a Mesmer can interrupt, or depend on the insta-reflexes of Hero Mesmers.

The point is, the Assassin, just like all the other classes have certain things they're good at, and usually revolve around either a single attribute exculsivley or a couple of different builds centered around a few specific Elite skills. This is only likely to change when ANet does a rebalance. And when that happens, a few new skills will be in vogue, and skills like SF or CoP may fall out of favor.

Besides, everyone thought the damage nerf to SF (33% reduction) would kill it, but the community realized they just had to get creative with aggro and PvE skills such as EBSoH and BUH.

Fate Crusher · Nov 18, 2009, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by My Inner Ninja

The perma-sin has not "killed" the assassin class any more than lung cancer has killed smoking. As far as I know there are well over 100 skills defined to the Assassin class that do not include the 2 skills required to maintain Shadow Form. Indeed the reputation of the legend of the Assassin is quite misunderstood in the GW community but that is not the fault of the game developers, I refer you to the plethora of usable skills for Assassins, of which some of the most fearsome are Assassin only Critical Arts skills.

I must say, I find your romantic idea of the Assassin quite misleading. Assassins, famous for their ability to dispose of a target with overwhelming suppressive lethal power and retreating from the scene is well known, however, this is usually accomplished in complete stealth. The game mechanics of PvE erases any possibility for an Assassin to penetrate an enemy group and dispatch of a target with such impunity. Any PvE mob will instantly respond to an Assassin's presence as soon as it enters their Aggro range and it will be very, very difficult for that Sin to carry out his/her action unscathed, if at all. Alas, unlike your charming though pervasive epitaph of the great Assassin, GW has more than one dimension.

Enter PvP. In PvP the Assassin's traditional roles are applicable with great success. Lest you forget Assassins take advantage of blind spots in human senses and perception. A mob of NPC foes does not succumb to these sensory shortcomings. In PvE the fight is between robots and humans. If an assassin is able to penetrate a Robot Mob and take out the Monk, for example, he will not do so unnoticed and will probably not be able to avoid pursuit effectively, considering the bar restrictions which limits his ability to balance defense with the offensive prowess necessary to achieve a quick kill. Put this scenario against strict interpretations of the role of an assassin and you do not have an assassin. What you have is a medium armor specialized infantry unit, which is basically what assassins are in PvE. In contrast, all the failings of human senses and perception are exploitable in PvP. Sin spikes are infamous in some PvP conditions because of this fact. And they are effective because it is here that the traditional Assassin is in his element. Able to sneak up on a target without 'instantly' alerting its allies, dispatch that target, and retreat before its allies react with force, the GW Sin finds his true 'Shadow Form' in PvP scenarios.

I do most of my playing as an Assassin in Shadow Form. I am quite reluctant to use daggers in PvE because Assassins inherently lack the necessary balance between defense and offense to face up a large mob effectively. Certainly not in the same way that a Warrior or Dervish can. The role of the assassin in PvE is quite limited beyond the PermaForm or some secondary class hybridization; and that is mainly because the same 'target elimination' job can be accomplished by Warriors, Dervishes, or even Pet Rangers and with smaller risk. On the other hand, I get great joy from using a dagger assassin in RA, HA, and AB, where I normally run an all assassin skills bar.

I appreciate your attempt to shed light on an obvious contradiction about the Assassin in PvE, however, I hope you understand that there is more to the game than PvE, namely PvP, and it is inevitable that a class will be more suited to one over the other.

Completely Agree. You're trying to explain how an easy build has "tarnished" the look of the Assassin Class.

If people had the option to easily get past areas, quickly and with great rewards at the end, of course they will take that route. You're going to have to find the many few pious people in this world who would INITIALLY choose to make everything challenging.

Everyone has a Sin. Much like how everyone had a 55 monk in Prophecies. Did the 55 build tarnish the monk profession? the 55 build and the Perma sin have essentially done the same thing, making cash a lot easier to obtain.
But of course monks are an integral part of a team across all competitive and PvE play... Sins had that love too. Anet had a wonderful idea to create a great splitter of the group, to integrate new strategies and tactics to the PvP world.

Everyone's reaction to a Sin was that it was great for PvP, you unload your combo and someone's dead, but they're horrible in PvE because once you've completed your combo, you probably have to wait 20 seconds simply to kill 1 other target. Not exactly fun.
Anet fixed this.

So to be frank, a farm build has not caused the demise of a profession.

PvP is rife with what remains of the broken shadowstepping and many other builds that make Assassins still fun to play. they provide the surprise element that tests if a player really is keeping an eye on the game (Wastrels Collapse builds are a good example).

Tenebrae · Nov 18, 2009, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

So to be frank, a farm build has not caused the demise of a profession.

Lets see what happens IF sf gets nerfed or changed/reworked. A prof its made of more things than its skills only , also made of ppl that play it and the way they do. I dont think that "demise" exists but SF farm changed a lot of things about sins , ppl they play it , the way they play it and skill bars used and saying otherwise would be a plain lie.

PS: I bet that SF rework will never come .

Fate Crusher · Nov 18, 2009, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Lets see what happens IF sf gets nerfed or changed/reworked. A prof its made of more things than its skills only , also made of ppl that play it and the way they do. I dont think that "demise" exists but SF farm changed a lot of things about sins , ppl they play it , the way they play it and skill bars used and saying otherwise would be a plain lie.

PS: I bet that SF rework will never come .

I see what you mean. You're right, many of the assassin players you see are simply using their characters as a farming tool. It was very much the same for me when i was pretty much pressured into getting a monk because everyone was benefitting from 55ing so much.

If the nerf did happen, you will be seeing a lot of assassins disappear. But you could also see them take on a better role in PvP because they are no longer assimilated towards the Perma build.

It's like the opposite for mesmers. They are the best shutdown profession, against anything, they can shut it down no problem. But they've been so effective at competitive where it is 4v4 or 8v8, they don't get the love they deserve in PvE where you really don't need tactics. And so they are mostly overlooked and thought of as a "PvP only" profession (apart from fast cast nukers of course).

Neverending Silence · Nov 19, 2009, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

It wasn't possible until nightfall (deadly paradox), and it wasn't stupid easy until pve split + eotn Glyph of Swiftness.

Your forgetting the old school mimicry sins A/Me :P