Curse

Warlord Xardas · Mar 13, 2010, 08:20 PM // 20:20

I would like you to tell me some things that I may have to change of my actual sin build which is:
[Jagged strike][Fox Fangs][Death Blossom][Palm Strike][Sharpen Daggers][Critical Eye][Death's Charge][Shadow Refuge]

Critical impacts 11
Shadow Arts 4
Dagger Mastery 12

Tenebrae · Mar 13, 2010, 09:16 PM // 21:16

You got a mix right there. If you are going to keep Palm Strike no matter what you should try
Palm Strike+Trampling Ox+Falling Spider+Blades of Steel/Any dual you like.
Apart from that , if you want to do damage and do it fast you should add Critical Agility and Asuran Scan ( Both PvE only ). You can use 2 slots for utility/shadowsteps/IMS skill .

Giro · Mar 13, 2010, 11:09 PM // 23:09

That build would only have 2 recharging dagger skills for Blades of Steel, so Death Blossom would be better imo.

I would run:

Palm Strike
Trampling Ox
Falling Spider
Death Blossom
Asuran Scan
Critical Agility
Critical Eye
"Save Yourselves!"

You shouldn't critical defenses if you have some good healers, and you can replace "Save Yourselves!" with Death's Charge or Sharpen Daggers.

EDIT: Blades of steel counts itself as one of the recharging attacks, so that would be a good alternative to death blossom in this build. At 13 Dagger Mastery, Blades of Steel would give +45 damage, but Death Blossom gives +42 and 42 damage to adjacent foes, though, so I still think DB is better.

Dzjudz · Mar 14, 2010, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Also, I would suggest you do the Attribute Point Quests for Factions characters to get 30 extra attribute points.

Bobby2 · Mar 14, 2010, 01:41 AM // 01:41

I'm thinking you only got Factions? It would help if you'd mention the campaigns you have available.

CritStrikes 12+1
Dagger 12+1+1 (like Dzjudz said, get the attribute quests)

- Jagged Strike
- Fox Fangs
- Death Blossom
- Critical Eye ------ this is good stuff.

If it's Factions only, I'd fill it out with:
- Critical Defenses --- you don't have Hero healers, this does more for survivablity than any crap Shadow Arts skill
- Dash
- Save Yourselves!
- Aura of Displacement (to keep that Shadow Stepping vibe you got going on)

I'm ashamed to be the first to tell you that Palm Strike is a crap Elite, especially for PvE.

Warlord Xardas · Mar 14, 2010, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Actually got all the campaigns :P
One question about the build you told me Bobby. I was using the Shadow Refuge only to heal myself mainly, also to step behind the enemy, so do you still recommend me the elite of Aura of Displacement? :S

Ty all for ur answers

Dzjudz · Mar 14, 2010, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Like Bobby2 said, I would try a different elite. Palm Strike in PvE is a bit ineffective.

The first four skills of Bobby's list are very good with anything. Jagged Strike, Fox Fangs, Death Blossom and Critical Eye are awesome DPS with very fast recharge times.

4 elites I think you should have a look at are Flashing Blades (Factions), Moebius Strike (Factions), Fox's Promise (Nightfall) and Way of the Assassin (Nightfall).

Flashing Blades is great defense and a little offense, you can use it instead of Critical Defenses.

Moebius Strike is very popular with assassins, but I don't think it's very effective with the attack chain above, because the chain recharges extremely fast already and won't benefit from Moebius Strike. But it's great in other builds.

Fox's Promise is very cool in stance/block heavy areas.

Way of the Assassin is for if you don't need any of the three other elites. It's not used for the IAS, since Critical Agility takes care of that, but for the increased critical hit rate, giving you more energy (and a little more damage).

If you have Nightfall and/or EotN, you should look at PvE skills. Save Yourselves, as bobby pointed out, is already available in Factions and very good on an assassin. Critical Agility should be on every assassin PvE bar. Asuran Scan is an incredible damage booster.

Chthon · Mar 14, 2010, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Nothing terribly new here, but it seems what I thought was common knowledge was not.

Basic sin build.
Scan, SY!, Jagged Strike, Fox Fangs, Death Blossom, Moebius Strike, Critical Eye, Critical Agility

Alterations:

If your party is using an Essence of Celerity, and your backline is reliable, swap CritAgility for Drunken Master
If your party does such high damage that things are usually dying before you can get a second Death Blossom on your target (usually a buff-heavy situation), then you can consider swapping out Moebius...
- ... and CritAgility for By Ural's Hammer and Way of the Assassin (I'm not personally too fond of this build, but some people swear by it)
- ... for Flashing Blades.
- ... for Fox's Promise if blocking is a major problem in that area.
If you really need a DW for some reason, you can swap Fox Fangs for Golden Fox Strike, though I wouldn't advise it.

Bobby2 · Mar 14, 2010, 10:53 PM // 22:53

If you have all the campaigns... just follow Chthon's advice. Critical Agility is made of pure win. Though keep in mind...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Moebius Strike is very popular with assassins, but I don't think it's very effective with the attack chain above, because the chain recharges extremely fast already and won't benefit from Moebius Strike.

...this is true to an extent.

Chthon · Mar 15, 2010, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Moebius Strike is very popular with assassins, but I don't think it's very effective with the [JS+FF+DB], because the chain recharges extremely fast already and won't benefit from Moebius Strike.

Kicking around this forum somewhere are calculations I did on this question. The short answer is that MS adds meaningful DPS if, on average, your foes survive long enough to land the second DB (JS-->FF-->DB-->MS-->DB); otherwise, it doesn't add much.

The other thing militating in favor of MS is the weakness of the other options. WotA basically trades the elite slot for a free PvE slot, but you've already got Scan and SY!. Flashing Blades is great blocking, but who needs blocking when you've got warrior-class armor (thanks to CritAgility) and an ER ele to back you up? Fox's Promise is only relevant to a few areas. Everything else is even less attractive.

Bobby2 · Mar 15, 2010, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Just as an aside: you tested vs. Jagged-Exhausting-Moebius-Blossom as well?

Dzjudz · Mar 15, 2010, 04:28 AM // 04:28

It's just that Moebius Strike barely adds DPS, and that is only without buffs (with buffs like SoH, JS/FF/DB has more attacks than DB/MS and thus more buff dmg). I would suggest MS only if you are running something else than JS/FF/DB.

WotA is good because it is a stance. Seeing as Critical Agility will almost always be on top because of it refreshing, it will get hit first by enchantment removal. You'll still have an IAS and critbooster in that case.

I just think that in PvE, with heroes equipped with buffs, Moebius Strike is inferior to any of the three other options listed.

But then again, this is about Warlord Xargas' build. I'd suggest you try all of them and see which one suits you best. I switch between them all the time.

The basic build probably looks like this (click for build) with 14 dagger mastery, 13 critical strikes and the optional elite.

Chthon · Mar 15, 2010, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Just as an aside: you tested vs. Jagged-Exhausting-Moebius-Blossom as well?

I tried it in-game and decided it wasn't worth doing calculations for. If you fail to recharge Exhausting, your DPS goes into the toilet. Either you must get the target under 50% with just JS-->ES (I'm pretty sure MS checks for 50% hp before it hits, not after), or the the target must survive long enough that you can get to the end of JS-->ES-->MS-->DB-->MS. The odds that, at some point in the battle, neither of those conditions are met are unacceptably high.

Bobby2 · Mar 15, 2010, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Unacceptable by YOUR standards maybe.

Sigh. Looks like I'll have to do it myself.

Chthon · Mar 15, 2010, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Unacceptable by YOUR standards maybe.

Sigh. Looks like I'll have to do it myself.

"Unacceptable" in the sense that the overall DPS drops below the other options. Even a modest fail rate can be "unacceptable" if the consequences of failure are too great. (And being forced to auto-attack with daggers for the rest of an 8-sec recharge is a pretty big drag on your DPS.)

Bobby2 · Mar 16, 2010, 02:39 AM // 02:39

You get a pretty good feel for it after a while. I'll be the first to admit that one needs to be more judicious in target selection, but at least it spices things up a bit...

(also it's fun to outshine Locust's sins in 'buff damage delivery')

Chthon · Mar 16, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

You get a pretty good feel for it after a while. I'll be the first to admit that one needs to be more judicious in target selection, but at least it spices things up a bit...

(also it's fun to outshine Locust's sins in 'buff damage delivery')

1. Standard build already outshines LF for buff damage delivery. LF can't make attack skills double-strike, only auto attacks. Between the fast activation time on JS+FF and the guaranteed double-strike on DB, you already get more hits/sec than with LF.

Hits/sec with JS+FF+DB+auto+auto (the auto are there to give FF time to recharge) under 33% IAS @ 14 mastery:
(1 + 1 + 2 + (.7 * 1) + (.3 * 2) + (.7 * 1) + (.3 * 2)) / ((.5 * .67) + (.5 * .67) + (1.33 * .67) + .125 + (.7 * 1.33 * .67) + (.3 * ((1.33 * .67) + .125)) + (.7 * 1.33 * .67) + (.3 * ((1.33 * .67) + .125))) = 1.86267039.

(JS+FF+DB+MS is going to be a little higher, but I can't be arsed to calculate it.)

By comparison, hits/sec on LF with only auto attacks under 33%IAS @ 14 mastery:
((.2*1)+(.8*2))/((.2*1.33*.67)+(.8*(1.33*.67 + .125))) = 1.81616386.

Then, just to add insult to injury, the attack skills add considerable damage on their own.

2. Being judicious in target selection means holding back your damage when there isn't a good target. Voluntarily restricting yourself to auto attacks is just as bad for your DPS as being force into auto-attacking because ES didn't get recharged.

Bobby2 · Mar 16, 2010, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. /snip

Thanks calc guy. Good to know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. Being judicious in target selection means holding back your damage when there isn't a good target. Voluntarily restricting yourself to auto attacks is just as bad for your DPS as being force into auto-attacking because ES didn't get recharged.

Wasn't talking about holding back attack skills, just target swapping.