Curse

Tenebrae · Nov 05, 2009, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Quit trying to muddy the issue by redefining "auto attack." The second hit on an auto attack is not an independent "auto attack" any more than the second hit on DB is an independent dual attack. My point was that JS+FF+DB delivers hits faster than auto-attacking under LF (as does MS+DB). This is undeniable true. So stop trying to weasel around it by playing with the terminology.

Im not playing with nothing dude. The second hit on an autoattack wich double strikes is not an independent "auto attack" ? lol then what it is ? an attack skill ? a bonus damage ? a bonus attack ?. I know your point but here on earth autoattack = attack that character does when its on attack mode and therefore YES , 2 autoattacks with LF will be equal to 4 autoattacks due to doublestrikes 80% of the time. THAT is a FACT like 2+2=4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Your problem. You can't nitpick about a 0.125 sec delay (that doesn't exist) and then turn around and lazily round 80% up to 100%. An auto attack under LF with 14 mastery yields 1.8 hits, not 2. If you can't be assed to work with decimal points, you shouldn't even venture into this sort of conversation.

And yours like i showed above. Seriously 1.8 hits , not 2 ? what the hell is that ? in WHAT context does ANYONE hit 1.8 times ? lol . You stick to JS+FF to hell because you know that ANY other combo is slower so whats the point ? that theres 1 combo in a SEA of combos that can chain 0.09sec faster than a LF autoattack ? .
Woah want that cookie ? you can have it but that combo is about what % of sins combos used ? ALL the rest < LF hit speed .

Kaleban · Nov 18, 2009, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Easy Fix to Locust's Fury = Change it to Impossible Odds.

/fixed

syphonus · Nov 18, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Easy Fix to Locust's Fury = Change it to Impossible Odds.

/fixed

Easy breaking the entire game forever.

Oh, wait..

AtomicMew · Nov 18, 2009, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

Easy breaking the entire game forever.

Oh, wait..

That's actually a pretty neat idea. Of course it will need to be balanced though:

Locust's Fury: 15e 15r stance; For 1...11 seconds, your auto attacks hit adjacent foes and have +5...50% chance to double strike.

syphonus · Nov 18, 2009, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Locust's Fury: 15e 15r stance; For 1...11 seconds, your auto attacks hit adjacent foes and have +5...50% chance to double strike.

The idea of making auto-attacks AoE really, really terrifies me.

Darth The Xx · Nov 18, 2009, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Im not playing with nothing dude. The second hit on an autoattack wich double strikes is not an independent "auto attack" ? lol then what it is ? an attack skill ? a bonus damage ? a bonus attack ?. I know your point but here on earth autoattack = attack that character does when its on attack mode and therefore YES , 2 autoattacks with LF will be equal to 4 autoattacks due to doublestrikes 80% of the time. THAT is a FACT like 2+2=4.

And yours like i showed above. Seriously 1.8 hits , not 2 ? what the hell is that ? in WHAT context does ANYONE hit 1.8 times ? lol . You stick to JS+FF to hell because you know that ANY other combo is slower so whats the point ? that theres 1 combo in a SEA of combos that can chain 0.09sec faster than a LF autoattack ? .
Woah want that cookie ? you can have it but that combo is about what % of sins combos used ? ALL the rest < LF hit speed .

Ok so I don't play a sin in PvE/PvP at all but after reading this thread I just had to reply to this guy who doesn't understand simple maths.

The fact that it is impossible to hit 1.8 is irrelevant, it is a value used for calculations. Let me make it simpler.

You attack 100 times.

1.8 x 100 = 180 This means you get 80 bonus attacks or w/e you're talking about.

NOT

2 x 100 = 200. You can't just add in phantom numbers. you do NOT have a 100% chance to double so stop assuming you do.

In response to the DB chain giving 6 attacks this is also very simple. We will assume that the attack speed is the same, in the grand scheme of PvE 0.1 of a sec makes little to no diff.

JS+FF+DB is 6 attacks therefore it gives MoPx6 + DB AoE 100% of the time.

3 Auto Attacks =/= 6 hits.

Why? Simple!

3 x 1.8 = 5.4 last I checked 5.4 =/= 6

Now you can't have 5.4 attacks right? just multiply it all by 100 to make it easier for your mind to udnerstand

300 (ie 300 auto attacks) x 1.8 (dual strikes chance) = 540 Hits

6 x 100 = 600 Hits

600 Hits (DB) > 540 (LF) simple as that really.

Oh and in relation to that screenshot that puts LF and MS/DB close in dmg, remember this is an unarmoured (60al) target DB Dmg remains constant on a 100al target where as LF's dmg will be cut in half.

Have a nice day.

EDIT : The actual chance of getting 3 double strikes in a row is 0.8^3 = 0.512ie, this is far from 100%

Tenebrae · Nov 18, 2009, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth The Xx

Ok so I don't play a sin in PvE/PvP at all but after reading this thread I just had to reply to this guy who doesn't understand simple maths.

The fact that it is impossible to hit 1.8 is irrelevant, it is a value used for calculations. Let me make it simpler.

You got it wrong , i understand it so well that all explanation is not needed. The point is that theres some point that maths =\= real GW experience and thats it. The first bolded part is undeniable but if you wanna go with "mister maths player" ok , im right 80% of the time and wrong 20% .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth The Xx

Oh and in relation to that screenshot that puts LF and MS/DB close in dmg, remember this is an unarmoured (60al) target armor ignoring bonus DB Dmg remains constant on a 100al target where as LF's dmg will be cut in half.

Have a nice day.

EDIT : The actual chance of getting 3 double strikes in a row is 0.8^3 = 0.512ie, this is far from 100%

Fixed. Anyway non-stupid ppl will use weaken armor in curses hero for HM but thats another stuff. And btw , LF chance is a + , not a 50% more chance of the current doublestrikes chance you have with daggers ( wich is 30+2 % ) wich is about 82% . Test it and youll see that is closer to 80-85 than 45-50% .

PS: All guild still lol'ing about that "The second hit on an autoattack with double strikes is not an independent "auto attack" .

_Nihilist_ · Nov 18, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

PS: All guild still lol'ing about that "The second hit on an autoattack with double strikes is not an independent "auto attack".

It's not an independent auto-attack. If it were an independent auto-attack, it, too, would have a chance to double strike, which it does not. Semantics Wars can end now, thanks.

Nosam · Nov 23, 2009, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Hmm. Locust's Fury as along with Temple Strike are underrated Elite Assasin Skills. People don't like to use these skill because of either of these reasons:
1.)Don't understand the skill and it's capabilities.
2.)Don't know how to use it correctly and would rather use MS/DB or the overrated Assasin Elite Skill Palm Strike.
(Rarely do I use MS/DB don't even use Palm Strike period.) That is my debate on Locust's Fury.

BlackSephir · Nov 23, 2009, 06:21 PM // 18:21

And I bet you're going to help us understand LF's awesomeness and how to use them correctly.

Bobby2 · Nov 23, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

And I bet you're going to help us understand LF's awesomeness and how to use them correctly.

Quoted to enforce the point.

Flaming should be allowed in response to baseless statements.

Chthon · Nov 23, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

And I bet you're going to help us understand LF's awesomeness and how to use them correctly.

Yes, please help us understand LF's awesomeness. You get bonus points for including lots of unwarranted personal insults and brilliant calculations like 1.8 * 3 = 6.

Seriously, though, I'm open to the possibility that LF might be good for something in some context, even though I sure as hell can't imagine how. But you've got to show it. Unsubstantiated claims (and unwarranted personal insults and brilliant calculations like 1.8 * 3 = 6) don't convince anyone and just make you look like a fool. Or, to put my point more briefly: put up or shut up.

BlackSephir · Nov 24, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Yeah, so far so good with proving his points.
All talk, no shock.

Kaleban · Nov 29, 2009, 07:09 AM // 07:09

I still like my idea of changing LF to IO...

I've actually been using an LF build recently, using a simple attack chain along with it. Of course, without buffs, it doesn't hold a candle to MS/DB.

But what got me thinking was the difference in how the two builds work. DB spam is basically AoE armor ignoring damage (nice) and can get rediculous in a big group. Thing is, once you max out your DM, DB's damage can't increase any more. And while it does a lot of aggregate damage, it might not be as efficient at taking down a single target, which is what the Sin SHOULD be about lol.

The advantage to LF, at least theoretically, is that the second autoattack when it triggers can proc all sorts of benefits. From simple conjures to Rit weapon spells, which DB cannot. Does that outweigh DB's simply massive AoE ability? Perhaps not, but there have been times in PvE where I wish I hadn't relied on DB, such as using GPS and MS, and having either skill interrupted or disabled. Autoattacks can't be disabled, Rit spells and Paragon shouts can't be removed, etc.

Not that I'm arguing for either way, I use many different Sin builds in PvE, based around what area I'm in and what I feel like playing at the moment. I'm generally not a min/max type of player, so the math guts of these arguments don't interest me terribly.

It IS fun though playing a LF build, and not having to worry so much about timing attack skills, or hitting the same sequence of skills over and over again. And while it is extremely inefficient to do so, it is also fun to load up heros with a bunch of buffs like SoH and conjures, cast them all on the sin and see just how much damage it can rack up!

Dark Paladin X · Nov 29, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Comparing Locust's Fury to let say, Moebius Strike, Assassin's Promise, and Shadow Form, this elite skill isn't often used. And besides, assassins do have a high double strike rate in conjunction with an non-elite PvE skill, Critical Agility. However, like many pointed out, Locust's Fury can have some good synergy with Mark of Pain or Splinter Weapon. Besides, I did found a decent PvP build that can help maintain "Save Yourselves!" if Locust's Fury is used in conjunction with an IAS. However, compared to Imbagon, this build isn't as effective (since Paragons get more benefits from shouting).

Chthon · Nov 29, 2009, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

assassins do have a high double strike rate in conjunction with an non-elite PvE skill, Critical Agility.

You're confusing critical strikes with double strikes.

Quote:

However, like many pointed out, Locust's Fury can have some good synergy with Mark of Pain or Splinter Weapon.

A major point of this thread is that LF in fact does NOT have a good synergy with MoP. It is strictly worse for that role than any DB chain. Please reread earlier posts until you understand why that is.

Quote:

Besides, I did found a decent PvP build that can help maintain "Save Yourselves!" if Locust's Fury is used in conjunction with an IAS.

1. That's not a PvP build.

2. That's not a Locust Fury build. FL can only trigger on auto-attacks. How often should that build be auto attacking? Pretty much never. Even less if you bring MS for the elite like you should for most areas.

Malician · Nov 30, 2009, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Yes, please help us understand LF's awesomeness. You get bonus points for including lots of unwarranted personal insults and brilliant calculations like 1.8 * 3 = 6.

Seriously, though, I'm open to the possibility that LF might be good for something in some context, even though I sure as hell can't imagine how. But you've got to show it. Unsubstantiated claims (and unwarranted personal insults and brilliant calculations like 1.8 * 3 = 6) don't convince anyone and just make you look like a fool. Or, to put my point more briefly: put up or shut up.

A hero. They're too dumb to run attack chains. Properly buffed, they can do better autoattacking.

Presumably, the same would apply to a player with the intelligence of a hero.

Dark Paladin X · Nov 30, 2009, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. That's not a PvP build.

Whoops I meant to say "PvE build."

But still, I think it is completely worthless to waste an elite skill that increases the chances of double striking while you can have high attributes of Dagger Mastery and use the non-elite skill, Critical Agility to get the similar DPS results.

I did test Locust Fury earlier today in conjunction with Critical Agility and did around 20k damage to Master of Damage in the Isle of the Nameless. I will later this week would try without using Locust Fury and use a damage booster like Strength of Honor or one of the Conjure spells.

And yes I am aware that Critical Agility is related to critical strikes. However, the IAS of Critical Agility allows to get double strikes and critical hits more frequently (which is another reason why I kinda find Locust's Fury to be a bit useless).

Nechrond · Nov 30, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

1) Locust's Fury only does something when auto-attacking with daggers.
2) Auto-attacking with daggers is a bad idea because
2a) Dagger-attacks rule
2b) Daggers are really, really bad weapons. They're a 2-handed weapon that require 2 high attributes in order to deal almost as much damage as a 1-handed weapon.

So apart from a team build with a Barbs-spamming necro behind you, LF is never going to be good.

Chthon · Nov 30, 2009, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

A hero. They're too dumb to run attack chains. Properly buffed, they can do better autoattacking.

I gave up on hero sins long ago. Supposedly the last couple of AI updates improved their combo usage. I guess not....

Quote:

Presumably, the same would apply to a player with the intelligence of a hero.

I wonder if a hero can multiply 1.8 * 3...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

I think it is completely worthless to waste an elite skill that increases the chances of double striking while you can have high attributes of Dagger Mastery and use the non-elite skill, Critical Agility to get the similar DPS results.

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

1) Locust's Fury only does something when auto-attacking with daggers.
2) Auto-attacking with daggers is a bad idea because
2a) Dagger-attacks rule
2b) Daggers are really, really bad weapons. They're a 2-handed weapon that require 2 high attributes in order to deal almost as much damage as a 1-handed weapon.

Yes.

Quote:

So apart from a team build with a Barbs-spamming necro behind you, LF is never going to be good.

No. Not even good with Barbs. Same deal as MoP. LF is strictly inferior to any DB chain for that purpose.