Curse

maxxfury · Apr 26, 2010, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Tbh, if there weren't so much drama around it, I could see it vetted right now.

This, there was some pretty good points made by both 'sides', mostly hidden in the ego's & posturing and refusal to give any leeway for variations in playstyles hence the lack of a happy ending.

Essence Snow · Apr 26, 2010, 06:03 PM // 18:03

LoL~I just went and saw what has been going on with this on PvX.....I can only laugh...I mean WOW. My 2 cents~who cares if it is on PvX~their loss~not ours on Guru. Some of us know how effective it is and if others don't benefit from it.....it's no sweat off our backs....I say abandon posting it on PvX ,not worth the hassel trying to help others if met with such opposition.

Reformed · Apr 26, 2010, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

It could have gone through the normal procedures of PvX and possibly even done well, but there was just too much bandwaggoning on either side.

Tbh, if there weren't so much drama around it, I could see it vetted right now.

Here's the thing KJ--I never knew any of these people before random chance got me into a group sometime this past September. When I first saw the build I thought it looked extremely sloppy, viable sure, but sloppy. I've been playing with most of the people in this thread since and can say beyond any shadow of a doubt this is extremely sturdy for something PuGs can use. Like many others I was a huge skeptic but over a very large amount of trial and error they made a believer out of me. All of the drama you are talking about was completely avoidable if site administrators were forced to either pick at the build or play moderator but not both. The previous analogy describing it as allowing a boxer to simultaneously be the referee is exactly right. I'd also point out the notion of 'sides' is laughably absurd. Armed with only fact and opinion when the 'opposition' can whip out bureaucratic procedure simply because they don't like a style of play isn't exactly fair.

Karate Jesus · Apr 26, 2010, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Here's the thing KJ--I never knew any of these people before random chance got me into a group sometime this past September. When I first saw the build I thought it looked extremely sloppy, viable sure, but sloppy. I've been playing with most of the people in this thread since and can say beyond any shadow of a doubt this is extremely sturdy for something PuGs can use. Like many others I was a huge skeptic but over a very large amount of trial and error they made a believer out of me. All of the drama you are talking about was completely avoidable if site administrators were forced to either pick at the build or play moderator but not both. The previous analogy describing it as allowing a boxer to simultaneously be the referee is exactly right. I'd also point out the notion of 'sides' is laughably absurd. Armed with only fact and opinion when the 'opposition' can whip out bureaucratic procedure simply because they don't like a style of play isn't exactly fair.

The drama could have been avoided by either group. Granted, Athrun shouldn't have gotten involved, but the rest of the admins stayed out of it and just tried to help clean up votes on the build and prevent conflict.

Either side of this issue could have grown a pair and ended the drama, but neither did. That's the truth.

From the outside, it all looked very childish (but what can you expect from gamers?).

Reformed, you are looking at this from your perspective and it is very, very subjective. So are Minion's, Arrogant's, Life's, Athrun's, etc. Neither side listened to the other and claiming that one was in any way more "fair" than the other is asinine. It was a clusterfck either way.

HigherMinion · Apr 26, 2010, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

The drama could have been avoided by either group. Granted, Athrun shouldn't have gotten involved, but the rest of the admins stayed out of it and just tried to help clean up votes on the build and prevent conflict.

Either side of this issue could have grown a pair and ended the drama, but neither did. That's the truth.

From the outside, it all looked very childish (but what can you expect from gamers?).

Reformed, you are looking at this from your perspective and it is very, very subjective. So are Minion's, Arrogant's, Life's, Athrun's, etc. Neither side listened to the other and claiming that one was in any way more "fair" than the other is asinine. It was a clusterfck either way.

How is one NOT subjective when arguing for what they think? It's just like atheism vs theism; pointless because theists aren't going to look at the evidence.

Also the only way we could avoid it is by taking it down and not responding; but that would have defeated the object of the game. We did listen to criticism when it wasn't "it dun work". We tried splinter, we tried hammer wars, etc. But we still lost.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 26, 2010, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

The drama could have been avoided by either group. Granted, Athrun shouldn't have gotten involved, but the rest of the admins stayed out of it and just tried to help clean up votes on the build and prevent conflict.

Either side of this issue could have grown a pair and ended the drama, but neither did. That's the truth.

From the outside, it all looked very childish (but what can you expect from gamers?).

Reformed, you are looking at this from your perspective and it is very, very subjective. So are Minion's, Arrogant's, Life's, Athrun's, etc. Neither side listened to the other and claiming that one was in any way more "fair" than the other is asinine. It was a clusterfck either way.

When someone made a valid point, I looked into it.

Specifically, the Orders bars and Splinter were what I was able to find a "conclusion" for.

Interestingly enough, the people who said (and I'm paraphrasing) "the build looks OK but the Orders bar and lack of Splinter = fail" quickly shifted to "LOL who plays 8-player teams when you can SC or h/h" once I put out some more info.

It seems as though their actual goal was just to prevent the build from getting vetted properly regardless of its merits.

Reformed · Apr 26, 2010, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Reformed, you are looking at this from your perspective and it is very, very subjective. So are Minion's, Arrogant's, Life's, Athrun's, etc. Neither side listened to the other and claiming that one was in any way more "fair" than the other is asinine. It was a clusterfck either way.

I wasn't involved in any of the drama I am telling you exactly what I see.

It was noted several times by several people that this build was not meant to do X or Y but Z instead and was written expressly for that purpose. An admin jumped in and said 'To hell with all that it's doing X and Y because I said so and don't touch it or it's 1RV'. The rest is history.

Karate Jesus · Apr 26, 2010, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Well, all of you that have talked to me on MSN know what I've suggested for this. Wait a few weeks, get the build some attention in-game and on here, and then re-submit the build.

Or you could just keep fighting each other. Either way....

Life Bringing · Apr 26, 2010, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

When someone made a valid point, I looked into it.

Specifically, the Orders bars and Splinter were what I was able to find a "conclusion" for.

Interestingly enough, the people who said (and I'm paraphrasing) "the build looks OK but the Orders bar and lack of Splinter = fail" quickly shifted to "LOL who plays 8-player teams when you can SC or h/h" once I put out some more info.

It seems as though their actual goal was just to prevent the build from getting vetted properly regardless of its merits.

Tbh, I saw my points addressed and voted a 4.8 :>

Life Bringing · Apr 27, 2010, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolarBear

? Oh wait, now I remember, my team build got sslashed by the same moderator gods at guru: KJ, Athrun, etc.

Question: What build did you submit?

Karate Jesus · Apr 27, 2010, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolarBear

Oh wait, now I remember, my team build got sslashed by the same moderator gods at guru: KJ, Athrun, etc.

Wait....I'm a moderator on Guru? News to me.

Oh, and I'm anything but a god....except maybe in bed. I'm glad that you think of me as a god though. It's nice to be appreciated.

On a more serious note, and I've said this countless times, PvX is a tool to host the most commonly used or overpowered builds. Often, non-meta builds have a harder time getting vetted based solely on that. That's why we have places like Guru for people to discuss builds, make them meta, and then get them on PvX.

Athrun Feya · Apr 27, 2010, 09:17 AM // 09:17

The point I made from the start and have made subsequently on guru and pvx, was it was unsuitable for pvx because it was a general optionals nightmare. I said earlier that if a group of people, say, wanted to use this "pug friendly" build in DoA but didn't actually have much experience there, they'd have no idea if significant hex/cond removal is needed or not, so no idea what to take for half the builds on the original version of the build. this is really the reason why we wanted something slightly more specced out (saying what you absolutely MUST take but still flexible, since it's a pug build) for certain areas.

The solution is far from hard. make a few specific variants for the build (for doa, urgoz, etc) with detailed usages (like the rest of the team builds on pvx) so people actually know what they're doing when they land in doa with a load of pugs. Then make a guide build for people trying to take it through areas that don't have more specific builds (like miscellaneous dungeons/mission/vanq/whatever else it can do.

I've said this multiple times there's a way but been selectively ignored, people prefer drama over solution. If you look into a lot of the pvx drama on comparing to "speed clears" you'll see my name doesn't appear there at all (my edits were attempting to make it more pvx-friendly so it -COULD- get vetted), so the premises for most your arguments against me are simply untrue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

It was noted several times by several people that this build was not meant to do X or Y but Z instead and was written expressly for that purpose. An admin jumped in and said 'To hell with all that it's doing X and Y because I said so and don't touch it or it's 1RV'. The rest is history.

We were told it was a very pug-safe build from the start (which i'd agree with) and we were told it could do everything (which was then changed later to exclusively elite areas and harder dungeons, for some reason). Comparing to SC's actually came much later on, after the ban in fact, from a regular member of pvx. The whole idea guru'ers are trying to get across about what happened on pvx is a very, very skew and falsified version of the truth.

HigherMinion · Apr 27, 2010, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

The point I made from the start and have made subsequently on guru and pvx, was it was unsuitable for pvx because it was a general optionals nightmare. I said earlier that if a group of people, say, wanted to use this "pug friendly" build in DoA but didn't actually have much experience there, they'd have no idea if significant hex/cond removal is needed or not, so no idea what to take for half the builds on the original version of the build. this is really the reason why we wanted something slightly more specced out (saying what you absolutely MUST take but still flexible, since it's a pug build) for certain areas.
.

Well there was a simple solution to that; where I had put instructions to hex,enchant-strip,condition heavy areas; simply list the main areas these occur. Easy fix.

The build is AS flexible as all your builds with a shit-ton of variants and "Optional slots" for each secondary profession. And if we were to do a guide for each type of area, the builds would look identical apart from two skills. So what's the point? We atleast want PUGs to think a *little* bit.

You don't need detailed usage for every area. Again, this would be pointless and seem like page-filling. Wherever you go the tactic is the same, and only changed in two situations. Pop Essence-Bond everyone- Keep everyone alive-c-space and finish the mission. There's really no reason to add a usage apart from "don't go and be dead."

Hatchet Child · Apr 27, 2010, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Okay......Derail this thread anymore why don't you?

Okay you got pissy at PvX, but as i stated before PvX is not the judge on a team build.

Guru has a lot more users that have a brain cell and can look at your team build and think about it and if they choose to look through the 7 pages of QQ and hear say They'll totally forget about the original idea about the thread; Constructive input of the team build.

/end

TalanRoarer · Apr 27, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

When someone made a valid point, I looked into it.

Specifically, the Orders bars and Splinter were what I was able to find a "conclusion" for.

Interestingly enough, the people who said (and I'm paraphrasing) "the build looks OK but the Orders bar and lack of Splinter = fail" quickly shifted to "LOL who plays 8-player teams when you can SC or h/h" once I put out some more info.

It seems as though their actual goal was just to prevent the build from getting vetted properly regardless of its merits.

Agreed. Me and Tom took splinter with us, we took shadowsteps. We didn't see the same results. We bring up the stats on a situation like Splinter vs GDW or BuH vs IATS!, people change their arguments. I feel we aren't going to win with PvX, so I'm not paying as much attention to the arguments anymore.

This is why its funny (I'll be honest, it doesn't annoy me anymore) when we're called stubborn or told that we don't listen to others suggestions for the team. I mean hell, I changed my opinion on OoV through discussions on wiki and have now decided that OoP/DF is superior in some situations.

We've done our testing, we've shown our stats. These people need to go out and try things and come back with a counter-argument. Because i feel we're happy to address any stats and/or arguments, instead of changing the subject.

HigherMinion · Apr 28, 2010, 03:02 AM // 03:02

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Excluded/DeepPhysway

Gogo Area-specific build with detailed usage!111elevenone11

PUGs are slow compared to the speed that Physway allows you to go. The Physicals were idling, not attacking more than half the time... Finished with a good enough time though.

Hatchet Child · Apr 28, 2010, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Working link

I'd say it safe to remove Rigor Mortis from the build for an Extra Cover hex.

The cover hex can be anything of 10e< 15e causes a lot of problems. Something like this is fine; Build Template.
Yes there is Displacement, but you wouldn't even know it was there with the amount of people and Friendly spirits. The cover hex is kinda vital in parts.

HigherMinion · Apr 28, 2010, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatchet Child

I'd say it safe to remove Rigor Mortis from the build for an Extra Cover hex.

The cover hex can be anything of 10e< 15e causes a lot of problems. Something like this is fine; Build Template.
Yes there is Displacement, but you wouldn't even know it was there with the amount of people and Friendly spirits. The cover hex is kinda vital in parts.

yeah you're right; and Displacement isn't exactly going to last 4 seconds VS the attack speed of the assassins. Updated.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 30, 2010, 03:57 AM // 03:57

New meta for non-pug team should be all wars and MoP (not minion).

HigherMinion · Apr 30, 2010, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

New meta for non-pug team should be all wars and MoP (not minion).

I'm too impatient to wait for things to bawwwwwl.But most things balled themselves last run; and the damage from the sins was fine. I could spam AP and MoP on each foe. I prefer the big single-target damage with only one or two 100lolz wars. Wouldn't consider dropping all of the sins, atleast.