Curse

Chthon · Apr 21, 2010, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

On a serious note, there is actually a legitimate question about this build on PvX:

How does the OotV build maintain orders and SoH while using hex/condition removal given that there is a cap on SR?

I never heard a necro complain about energy while running this build, but it is apparently a huge problem.

TBH, I've never really thought about it. The couple times I've run the bitch bar for UW, I've been swimming in so much energy I gave the ER's each a SoH to help out with their energy.

Decent SR rank plus SoLS just works.

I have seen hero builds powered by Cultists or Angro Gaze (or both), but I find it overkill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

so...

27e every 15 seconds
blood bond = 5e
x3 oov = 15e
that leaves 7 energy remove all hexes and conditions your party might have over 15seconds.

1. Use enchant mod. Lowers OoV to 15sec * 5e/6sec = 12.5e over 15sec.
2. Use SoLS. Adds 15sec * 6e/8.25sec = 10.90...e in 15sec.
Looks more like ~20e available to burn over 15sec.

Also, note that FoulFeast can cost less than 5e, or even give energy -- if you choose that for removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Since OoP is buffed by things like scan, do you think it is enough to outweigh the benefits of lifesteal? In addition, you can also bring Dark Fury.

I pretty much have to agree with Xeno that the diffuse healing is really quite valuable.

Especially with the attack speed on the sins, its a very efficient heal. That keeps the ER's from having to Infuse to clean up non-critical damage, which frees them to cast more Spirit Bonds -- which, in turn, keeps bars full and takes even more pressure off -- and to cast more GDW -- which in turn KDs more enemies and takes more pressure off, while doing damage too. It also keeps the sins from even thinking about needing to kite or otherwise stop attacking to avoid taking further damage. In sum, it keeps the balance of things "on the front foot," as Ensign would say.

Also, it's something to fall back on if one or both of the ER's gets their energy spiked down. Stacked with Blood Bond, it gives the sins a better shot at surviving long enough for ER to come back up. (And also encourages them to kill rather than kite.)

The added damage for OoP over OoV with Scan is 17*.75=12.75 per hit. And with Scan and BuH 20.1875 per hit. That's not trivial. In fact, it's a huge amount of damage given 3 or 4 sins with their ridiculously compressed attack speeds. The question is whether it's worth giving up a heal of 17 per hit to get that damage. I agree with Xeno that the general answer is "no," though I could be convinced otherwise for areas where the pressure facing the ER's is so low that they'll be Infusing out of boredom anyway.

As for Dark Fury:
1. Mark of Fury is a much better substitute now than it was before. Assuming people stay on target, it's got ~75% as much adr gain (1.5x as much adr with 0.5x the uptime), plus the cracked armor if the target somehow survives 5 sec.
2. The only adr skill the sins have is SY!, which they can maintain reasonably well simply by chain casting (or randomly spamming) based on their silly attack speed alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

He talks about DPS here, but pve really isn't about DPS. If you can spike down a group of foes extremely quickly, you've done your job. There's no such thing as a prolonged battle in PvE.

1. Any situation where your foes don't heal effectively is fundamentally about DPS. That's unavoidable. The monsters have a supply of X collective hp; You do Y DPS; It's going to take you X/Y seconds to eliminate all of their hp. That's all there is to it. 7th grade algebra. D = R*T. The only time things depart from this is when the monsters' hp supply isn't fixed. If their hp supply increases as a function of time (that is they heal), then suddenly spiking starts to matter. Now, what proportion of mobs in PvE heal effectively?...

(Also, I guess I should mention that spiking also eliminates the monsters' offensive threat faster - but that's an independent concern with no bearing on your offensive efficiency.)

2. For situations where AoE spiking is practical, AP+MoP is both superior for that task and sufficient on its own. In which case GDW is still advisable for its ability to pick off stragglers faster, snare via KD, and mitigate damage via KD.

Really, the only time I use Splinter is for H+H.

(FYI: #1 there is an important point that's germane to a lot of GW conversations and that I wish people paid more attention to in general.)

Life Bringing · Apr 21, 2010, 05:47 AM // 05:47

I think you slightly missed the point. If you trigger all 6 splinter weapon triggers in one attack, your DPS is technically insanely beyond anything that GDW could do. The fact that the group is now dead means that you don't need to maintain that DPS forever. You take the 4 seconds to get to the next group in the mob, get another splinter, and use all your splinter triggers in 2 attacks, which still puts your DPS well above GDW. By the time you're out of grouped up foes, the other 3 melees who are cspacing have killed off anything thats left, and you continue on to the next mob, well surpassing the DPS of the physicals with GDW on them.

Xenomortis · Apr 21, 2010, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The added damage for OoP over OoV with Scan is 17*.75=12.75 per hit. And with Scan and BuH 20.1875 per hit. That's not trivial. In fact, it's a huge amount of damage given 3 or 4 sins with their ridiculously compressed attack speeds.

For a retarded second I thought Asuran Scan was a significantly lower percentage increase. Indeed, trivial was definitely the wrong word to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I think you slightly missed the point. If you trigger all 6 splinter weapon triggers in one attack, your DPS is technically insanely beyond anything that GDW could do. The fact that the group is now dead means that you don't need to maintain that DPS forever. You take the 4 seconds to get to the next group in the mob, get another splinter, and use all your splinter triggers in 2 attacks, which still puts your DPS well above GDW. By the time you're out of grouped up foes, the other 3 melees who are cspacing have killed off anything thats left, and you continue on to the next mob, well surpassing the DPS of the physicals with GDW on them.

The conditions for Splinter surpassing GDW are really quite contrived. Splinter's recharge time is 5 seconds and for maximum DPS you need to use all the triggers Splinter offers within that time and have the triggers hit the maximum number of people.
The biggest "spike" possible with this is to use it on a Ranger with Barrage in a scenario that somehow fulfills all the conditions.
If you do trigger all those triggers at once (5 at 16 Channeling) then yes, your DPS is quite high in the period of the attack - but that's not relevant unless the entire mob is instantly destroyed by that single action, which is simply not going to be the case in any area that matters.

Then there's the simple logistics of using Splinter Weapon. It's 5 energy every 5 seconds on 4 physicals - you're simply not going to get any decent uptime on it compared with GDW and the conditions for it even beginning to surpass GDW are very situational and quite unlikely.

Ultimately you have Splinter on one physical versus GDW on all the physicals.
And that doesn't even mention that Splinter Weapon required a massive Channeling spec on a character - the only viable option is on a Rit.

Life Bringing · Apr 21, 2010, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

For a retarded second I thought Asuran Scan was a significantly lower percentage increase. Indeed, trivial was definitely the wrong word to use.

The conditions for Splinter surpassing GDW are really quite contrived. Splinter's recharge time is 5 seconds and for maximum DPS you need to use all the triggers Splinter offers within that time and have the triggers hit the maximum number of people.
The biggest "spike" possible with this is to use it on a Ranger with Barrage in a scenario that somehow fulfills all the conditions.
If you do trigger all those triggers at once (5 at 16 Channeling) then yes, your DPS is quite high in the period of the attack - but that's not relevant unless the entire mob is instantly destroyed by that single action, which is simply not going to be the case in any area that matters.

Then there's the simple logistics of using Splinter Weapon. It's 5 energy every 5 seconds on 4 physicals - you're simply not going to get any decent uptime on it compared with GDW and the conditions for it even beginning to surpass GDW are very situational and quite unlikely.

Ultimately you have Splinter on one physical versus GDW on all the physicals.
And that doesn't even mention that Splinter Weapon required a massive Channeling spec on a character - the only viable option is on a Rit.

My point was never to replace GDW completely, but simply to bring one copy of splinter and spam it on one of your physicals. The other 3 would still keep GDW. Having only 3 physicals need GDW means that you only need it on one of the ERs instead of both. When you are playing in this style, and using, say, an erf shakur, you can get 12 splinter triggers in 2 seconds fairly easily by using crude-->whirlwind and having a competent rit. That comes out to around 700 damage per foe if I did my math correctly(I think I messed it up), which is more than enough to kill enemies.

It also just so happens that there's a rit on this team that's specced heavily into channeling, so it's not like it would be hard to fit in.

By the way, I've been using the 17 spec numbers for splinter, as the pvx page states that it requires cons.

maxxfury · Apr 21, 2010, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

My point was never to replace GDW completely, but simply to bring one copy of splinter and spam it on one of your physicals. The other 3 would still keep GDW. Having only 3 physicals need GDW means that you only need it on one of the ERs instead of both. When you are playing in this style, and using, say, an erf shakur, you can get 12 splinter triggers in 2 seconds fairly easily by using crude-->whirlwind and having a competent rit. That comes out to around 700 damage per foe if I did my math correctly(I think I messed it up), which is more than enough to kill enemies.

Have one dude run in a couple of seconds before the other 3, have the mobs start converging on him on him, then hit some aoe? while the others come straight in? thats kinda what everyone does anyway naturally isnt it, as there is almost always one more dominant frontliner from my exp, even if its only a few steps infront..due to been the most aggressive.

Even in cspace style one person always takes the lead a little, and thats usually enough to draw the initial agro to them to start with, and that gets the mobs into blossom/scythe/melee aoe range for everyone.

One copy of splinter weapons on the rit for big easy to pull groups (eg all melee mob), isnt a bad idea. Gettin the max effect everytime isnt a lock tho... but is deffo a viable option to take on occasion, if you frontline happens to comprise of the right aoe viable toons. It adds a nice spike when it works, but its far from 100% needed to roflstomp thru with such a steamroller of frontline damage you get from buffed phys. Often quicker to just bulldoze thru balls deep depending on the mobs composition and size.

the whole "you must ball n nuke all the time or you suck!" mentality and dogma is the problem, as hell, most if nto all of the time its not needed due to the massive killing speed of buffed phys. but everyone agrees that a little agro management* is good thing! thats not in dispute. is it? lol

And im talking in general terms here, not just the posted versions of "phys way" specifically.

*not just balling, bow pulling, corner pulls ect, can just be a simple thing as one guy is a second or two ahead of everyone else, to grab some attention and close the gaps in the mob.

Smarty · Apr 22, 2010, 01:53 PM // 13:53

I joined the physway group yesterday for SoO and it was ridiculously fast and easy. Running the torch was harder work than killing stuff. The only painful part of the whole experience was seeing how many physical pugs weren't prepared to ditch their self defence skills and go all-out damage when forming the team.

For an 8-player team build that's designed to be grab-and-go for 5 out of 8 slots, it does exactly what it says on the tin - provided the grab-and-go's are prepared to run one of the many builds which will work in the team.

maxxfury · Apr 22, 2010, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

The only painful part of the whole experience was seeing how many physical pugs weren't prepared to ditch their self defence skills and go all-out damage

but healing sig heals me?....and shields stance stops things hurting me! and i dont know that your good enough to keep me alive!..

Need to find the right reasoning to counter that ^ as most pugs treat the rest as not been that good. Generally with good enough reason from past exp.. and with the exp most ppl have of pugs, its valid to say that a lot of pugs are bad*, especially the backlines. So some people take their own "insurance policy" for when the monks blow their blue bar right away or cant prot for crap.
Add in the fact ER infoozers arent exactly widespread and hardly known at all by people who dont forum/pvx/ect and monks are known as the healer, and anything else is looked at with major suspicion of been lolwft not monk?

*i know not all pugs are bad! far from it, some of the best players i know i met in pugs! just a general statement about the average pug quality..

HigherMinion · Apr 22, 2010, 03:12 PM // 15:12

It's the Wammos that annoy me the most. They say "no tank wtf" or "Lion's Comfort doesn't just heal me, it has super synergy!" And "Without Defy Pain, I die"... Classic wammo always has PI and either EVAS or an Asura summon spell. I don't know when this kind of build is ever effective. Endure Pain, Defy Pain; it's that person that likes to have high health.

But they don't listen alot of the time when you tell them to change; they either don't reply at all and leave, or try and defend themselves poorly.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 22, 2010, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

My point was never to replace GDW completely, but simply to bring one copy of splinter and spam it on one of your physicals. The other 3 would still keep GDW. Having only 3 physicals need GDW means that you only need it on one of the ERs instead of both. When you are playing in this style, and using, say, an erf shakur, you can get 12 splinter triggers in 2 seconds fairly easily by using crude-->whirlwind and having a competent rit. That comes out to around 700 damage per foe if I did my math correctly(I think I messed it up), which is more than enough to kill enemies.

It also just so happens that there's a rit on this team that's specced heavily into channeling, so it's not like it would be hard to fit in.

By the way, I've been using the 17 spec numbers for splinter, as the pvx page states that it requires cons.

The only cons the build requires is Essence and only in hard areas. No idea why it says otherwise.

If the goal is to spike down a group of foes fastest, then wouldn't MoP be the better option? If you bring MoP there is no need for splinter.

Nonetheless, I think you have made a viable point that you could keep 1 melee with splinter and the rest with gdw.

Life Bringing · Apr 23, 2010, 02:15 AM // 02:15

The problem with MoP when you're taking agro first(eg, one war running in first to get agro on himself) is that you have to wait for the agro to settle, wait for mop to be cast, and above all, you either need to a) Be using 100b or b) have everyone pound on the same target. With splinter, you can rush in and start blowing shit up without waiting for anything else. The benefits of using erf shakur over 100b are in the aoe knockdowns, which prevent a large number of the damage packets (basically what you're using the sos for now). ES also has 2 aoe attacks for better splinter distribution.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 23, 2010, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

The problem with MoP when you're taking agro first(eg, one war running in first to get agro on himself) is that you have to wait for the agro to settle, wait for mop to be cast, and above all, you either need to a) Be using 100b or b) have everyone pound on the same target. With splinter, you can rush in and start blowing shit up without waiting for anything else. The benefits of using erf shakur over 100b are in the aoe knockdowns, which prevent a large number of the damage packets (basically what you're using the sos for now). ES also has 2 aoe attacks for better splinter distribution.

Anything that splinter hits, MoP will also hit. This is why MoP requires experienced players, if you aren't balling, then the MoP and melees have to pick good targets.

If you are intent on taking splinter, it will work.

There are however a few downsides. The Rit will most likely not be able to bring Splinter and Siphon (I'm assuming this is needed to spam splinter) while also bringing Earthbind (without serious sacrifices; OoU or a res for example). Earthbind is extremely effective on bosses, although not necessary.
Whether to bring it or not depends on how tough the boss is and how good your team is. For example, I would be ok versus Dhuum w/o Earthbind, but less experienced people would have a lot of trouble w/o it.

HigherMinion · Apr 23, 2010, 02:33 AM // 02:33

It's not due to inexperience, it's laziness, why we bring Earthbind. And when MoP doesn't have a recharge, you really don't have to wait to use it wisely. You spam it and call like hell, hoping something attacks your target. It will trigger more often than Splinter, and deal more damage with BuH active.

Life Bringing · Apr 23, 2010, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Anything that splinter hits, MoP will also hit.

Err, not really. Say you're using an erf shakur. With crude, even if you hit 6 foes, you only get 1 trigger of MoP. However, if you use splinter and hit 6 foes, you get 6 triggers(5, depends on attribs, w/e). Primary reason why i said using a 100b was an exception.

maxxfury · Apr 23, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

You hit with splinter and cause your 6 procs, mop also procs on everyone adjacent too..
But then your splinter is exhausted and needs to be recast, whereas mop is still proccing on everyhit from you, your melee, ranged phys, spears...

Splinter provides a nice spike, and mop better dps, conclusion? run 1 copy of each if your gonna ball every group no matter the sizes and can ensure you team is exp enough and gonna follow the ap-mop's calls, and keep gdw on the res, for the better dps boost and kd abuse..

But pvx rating say its all fail, doesnt work and is equal to a melee mancer....good times

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 23, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

You hit with splinter and cause your 6 procs, mop also procs on everyone adjacent too..
But then your splinter is exhausted and needs to be recast, whereas mop is still proccing on everyhit from you, your melee, ranged phys, spears...

Splinter provides a nice spike, and mop better dps, conclusion? run 1 copy of each if your gonna ball every group no matter the sizes and can ensure you team is exp enough and gonna follow the ap-mop's calls, and keep gdw on the res, for the better dps boost and kd abuse..

But pvx rating say its all fail, doesnt work and is equal to a melee mancer....good times

I'm done with the PvX build because some mods have taken a personal issue with the build (if its not h/h via discord or a SC team, it's blasphemy).

There is no point in further debate because this is how the arguments generally turn out:

Me: X and Y demonstrate that Z is true
Mod: No.
Me: I disagree, and I actually have proof. You sir or ma'am are wrong.
Mod: No, I can't be wrong. If you disagree with me, you are banned.

Impartiality, objectivity, fact, and logic mean little if you aren't a mod or one of their friends.

Life Bringing · Apr 23, 2010, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

I'm done with the PvX build because some mods have taken a personal issue with the build (if its not h/h via discord or a SC team, it's blasphemy).

There is no point in further debate because this is how the arguments generally turn out:

Me: X and Y demonstrate that Z is true
Mod: No.
Me: I disagree, and I actually have proof. You sir or ma'am are wrong.
Mod: No, I can't be wrong. If you disagree with me, you are banned.

Impartiality, objectivity, fact, and logic mean little if you aren't a mod or one of their friends.

Overgeneralization.

@Maxx, I thought we were comparing mop vs splinter, not mop+splinter

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 23, 2010, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Overgeneralization.

@Maxx, I thought we were comparing mop vs splinter, not mop+splinter

That actual conversation happened in real-time.

Also, Minion got banned for reverting a Mod's edit (that or flamming, i forget).

HigherMinion · Apr 23, 2010, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

That actual conversation happened in real-time.

Also, Minion got banned for reverting a Mod's edit (that or flamming, i forget).

Yeah; mod reverted three times before I even reverted once, quite an odd ruling system they have. The police aren't aloud to joyride, nor are judges aloud to lock people up for kicks. As funny as that would be...

DigitalFear · Apr 23, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

nor are judges aloud to lock people up for kicks. As funny as that would be...

Lololololololololol!

Yeah. You're right. I can't say I really get it either.

Life Bringing · Apr 23, 2010, 08:25 PM // 20:25

How can someone revert three times before a revert happens?

@Arrogant - Maybe that's what you interpreted from the argument, but I seriously doubt that's the actual, word for word, conversation.

@Polar, whoru?