Curse

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 16, 2010, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Which is really odd. For something that's not that hard and yields such insane results, one would think that more people would bother learning how to do it.

I think people panic when they have negative energy regen.

Interrupts/strips seem to throw them off as well. ER has some glaring weaknesses that can only be accommodated via knowledge of the area you are in to avoid them.

Also people new to it often have problems with energy spiking (i think its because they don't have the right equip: runes/insignia/high set...).

HigherMinion · Apr 16, 2010, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Had a PUG ER today for ZB... Thank God we were 80% in wurms

Infuse Health and Orison of Healing on the bar... I don't think everyone understand what ER does?

DigitalFear · Apr 16, 2010, 05:22 PM // 17:22

It's a selfheal?

TalanRoarer · Apr 16, 2010, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Had a PUG ER today for ZB... Thank God we were 80% in wurms

Infuse Health and Orison of Healing on the bar... I don't think everyone understand what ER does?

Don't forget the fact that there was no Prot Sprit, Sprit Bond, Vig Spirit or Shield Guardian.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 20, 2010, 03:01 PM // 15:01

WTF no splinter weapon?

Where are heroes?

Fail build.

HigherMinion · Apr 20, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

WTF no splinter weapon?

Where are heroes?

Fail build.

/agree. Super fail.

Needs more minions, less Spirit Spamming, more Death's Charge, more balling, more usage of Highly Salvagable Longbows. Random builds inexpertly placed next to eachother.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 20, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Also Discordway is faster than this crap. Why use 8 players and cons when you can just use discord heroes?

On a serious note, there is actually a legitimate question about this build on PvX:

How does the OotV build maintain orders and SoH while using hex/condition removal given that there is a cap on SR?

I never heard a necro complain about energy while running this build, but it is apparently a huge problem.

I don't have a necro so I can't try it out myself. Could someone explain this.

Karate Jesus · Apr 20, 2010, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Also Discordway is faster than this crap. Why use 8 players and cons when you can just use discord heroes?

On a serious note, there is actually a legitimate question about this build on PvX:

How does the OotV build maintain orders and SoH while using hex/condition removal given that there is a cap on SR?

I never heard a necro complain about energy while running this build, but it is apparently a huge problem.

I don't have a necro so I can't try it out myself. Could someone explain this.

It's actually rather difficult, especially without minions to help feed SR. Honestly, I've never understood why the builds doesn't use elite e-management and OoP.

Hell, OoP let's you use Dark Fury to fuel more SY!, so it just doesn't make sense to me.

Dusk Banewalker · Apr 20, 2010, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Have you thought of using locusts fury on the assassins? With 33 ias they attack something like 3 times/sec iirc, which would be some scary dps with gdw, orders, barbs, and mop.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 20, 2010, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk Banewalker

Have you thought of using locusts fury on the assassins? With 33 ias they attack something like 3 times/sec iirc, which would be some scary dps with gdw, orders, barbs, and mop.

LF will "work" but it does less damage than jj+ff+db spam. There's a thread about it in the assassin forum.

KJ: I need to ask some of the necros who went on runs with us. I have a felling that the answer is: "things die fast enough that you don't need to spam everything".

HigherMinion · Apr 20, 2010, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Also Discordway is faster than this crap. Why use 8 players and cons when you can just use discord heroes?

On a serious note, there is actually a legitimate question about this build on PvX:

How does the OotV build maintain orders and SoH while using hex/condition removal given that there is a cap on SR?

I never heard a necro complain about energy while running this build, but it is apparently a huge problem.

I don't have a necro so I can't try it out myself. Could someone explain this.

Yes; they're talking crap.

Basically they've not tested it, and even Fagmin can't do 9*3, so that might be where they're going wrong. Having read what the haters have had to say, and weighing it up with my own experiences... I will be brief; energy is not bad. Spamming all your skills with ~4 SoH bonds active I still had >80% energy all the time.

They really need to start playing Guild Wars.

Athrun Feya · Apr 20, 2010, 06:42 PM // 18:42

so...

27e every 15 seconds
blood bond = 5e
x3 oov = 15e

that leaves 7 energy remove all hexes and conditions your party might have over 15seconds. and this is assuming things are constantly dying (which isnt the case with bosses etc).

if using 1 hex/cond removal skill every 15 seconds is your idea of spam then god help you.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 20, 2010, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Minion what did I tell you about using argumentative fallacies!

Need someone like xeno or chtlon to use maths to explain.

HigherMinion · Apr 20, 2010, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

so...

27e every 15 seconds
blood bond = 5e
x3 oov = 15e

that leaves 7 energy remove all hexes and conditions your party might have over 15seconds. and this is assuming things are constantly dying (which isnt the case with bosses etc).

if using 1 hex/cond removal skill every 15 seconds is your idea of spam then god help you.

Adding either SoLS or AoS resolves the problem completely. Like I said before, you can spam all your skills on recharge and never crave more energy than you already have.

Xenomortis · Apr 20, 2010, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

so...

27e every 15 seconds
blood bond = 5e
x3 oov = 15e

that leaves 7 energy remove all hexes and conditions your party might have over 15seconds. and this is assuming things are constantly dying (which isnt the case with bosses etc).

if using 1 hex/cond removal skill every 15 seconds is your idea of spam then god help you.

Do you choose to ignore the obvious answer? Did you fully read my comments on PvX?
Here it is, nice and big so it cannot be missed.

I should point out that this isn't a cleaner - you aren't going to be able to keep your team free of hexes and conditions but it's useful to be able to remove the threatening or annoying ones. If you want complete cleanliness, then you want a different build.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 20, 2010, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Do you choose to ignore the obvious answer? Did you fully read my comments on PvX?
Here it is, nice and big so it cannot be missed.

I should point out that this isn't a cleaner - you aren't going to be able to keep your team free of hexes and conditions but it's useful to be able to remove the threatening or annoying ones. If you want complete cleanliness, then you want a different build.

Since OoP is buffed by things like scan, do you think it is enough to outweigh the benefits of lifesteal? In addition, you can also bring Dark Fury.

Considering these, is OotV only superior when using a predominantly non-adrenaline based physicals (e.g. sins)?

Xenomortis · Apr 21, 2010, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Since OoP is buffed by things like scan, do you think it is enough to outweigh the benefits of lifesteal? In addition, you can also bring Dark Fury.

Considering these, is OotV only superior when using a predominantly non-adrenaline based physicals (e.g. sins)?

The following is answering the question: "Is Cultist's Fervor + OoP superior to OotV".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myself - somewhere on PvXwiki

If damage is your only concern then strictly speaking; yes, but only if your physicals are carrying Asuran Scan or By Ural's Hammer. Even then, the difference in damage is fairly marginal but using CF makes the bar much easier to run and you don't need any further energy management even while keeping up 4 copies of SoH.
CF+OoP+DF is clearly the winner when you have Warriors not using Endurance bars or when you need all the cover enchantments you can get but otherwise, it's only a small difference.
Also consider that OoV heals the frontliners whenever they attack anything. ER Eles can provide a big spot heal with Infuse, but are much weaker against pressure - OoV and Blood Bond releive some of that.

Another, very small consideration is that OoV deals its extra damage as a seperate, near unprottable packet (some things do now prot against it though). It's near trivial though and so damage-wise OoV generally draws even with OoP, with OoP having the potential to deal a little bit more.

The superior option depends on what you want out of it. If you want durability on the frontlines then OoV. If you want to squeeze out every last bit of damage possible then OoP.
Dark Fury is completely unnecessary if you don't have any Warriors that use adrenal attack skills.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 21, 2010, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The following is answering the question: "Is Cultist's Fervor + OoP superior to OotV".

Another, very small consideration is that OoV deals its extra damage as a seperate, near unprottable packet (some things do now prot against it though). It's near trivial though and so damage-wise OoV at best draws even with OoP with OoP having the potential to deal a little bit more.

OK thanks for clarification. I thought maybe there was something glaring I was overlooking because people were saying that OotV was significantly inferior.

So these are the biggest complains about the PvX build (minus the bad edits):

1) Splinter > GDW: Chtlon has math which proves this wrong

Quote:

Assume [email protected] is cast on the recharge and always scores every trigger on every hit. It's maximum possible DPS is (4*35*3)/6 = 70. [email protected] has a maximum possible DPS of (5*53*3)/6 = 132.5. Both of those figures are maximum possible values that are rather unrealistic. You're not going to get 3 adjacent foes on all 5 hits every time you cast Splinter. In fact, you're probably going to get a lot less. Each missed trigger takes ~9DPS off the r16 Splinter's maximum. By comparison, assume [email protected] is cast on the recharge, and your team has enough sins to put it on, and they are using JS+FF+DB+auto+auto. Your DPS would be (20 / 6) * 20 * 1.86267039 = 124.178026. And that is a pretty realistic number because the sins are going to keep swinging. If r16 Splinter misses a trigger or two per cast (quite likely), it's going to have less DPS than GDW. Splinter's only serious advantage is that it can be spikey when combined with multi-hit attacks. Then there's GDW's really, really powerful KD effect to consider.

2) OoV build can't manage energy: Xeno states that SoLS is more than enough
3) OoP>OoV: Xeno states that OoV is superior in most cases because it relieves pressure off ER's. OoP is still a viable alternative if covers are needed or using primarily non WE warriors.

Hopefully this evidence will stop the shitty edits. (Wishful thinking)

HigherMinion · Apr 21, 2010, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Alas, it will more than likely call for more trolls who will say "I stopped reading after [Assume [email protected]]".

It's already happened once, lol.

Life Bringing · Apr 21, 2010, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

3) OoP>OoV: Xeno states that OoV is superior in most cases because it relieves pressure off ER's. OoP is still a viable alternative if covers are needed or using primarily non WE warriors.

Tbh, you already have Vig Spirit and Blood Bond. I don't think losing OotV is going to make a huge difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Splinter > GDW: Chtlon has math which proves this wrong

He talks about DPS here, but pve really isn't about DPS. If you can spike down a group of foes extremely quickly, you've done your job. There's no such thing as a prolonged battle in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The following is answering the question: "Is Cultist's Fervor + OoP superior to OotV".

I'm going to assume that you're comparing skill slots used here. The real question is "If Cultist's Fervor+OoP superior to OotV+SoLS?

As for Lau, she's right from a purely mathematical perspective, but i would guess that energy is better than that when actual using it. You won't actually get off(or need) 3 OotV off in 15 seconds because it lasts 6, recharges in 5, and has a 2 second cast. You'll most likely get 2 off in a 15 second period.