Curse

Roger Brownthorn · Feb 13, 2014, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Hi all,

Has anyone played both of these classes and can tell me which one does more damage? (with all possible buffs from hero team)

I made a ranger barrage recently with splinter, mop and some paragon damage increasing chants and its pretty good damage in my eyes but barrage is slow to recharge and energy runs out quick on other skills.

Someone in game recommended a 100b warrior with same buff setup and said it will do three times more damage, is this true? I really don't feel like abandoning my ranger, but I do want to deal the highest maximum damage possible in game, im an ocd min maxer.

Thanks all

Cuilan · Feb 14, 2014, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Make sure Splinter Weapon isn't on your skill bar and I use Scavenger Strike for energy. Vamperic Bow...

Hundred Blades can be cruddy, but it's used if you know how to ball foes. A lot of players use it just because it's in a known speed clear team and haven't tried much else.

Try something like this or this. Could replace Savage Shot with "FGJ!" or something maybe. I use something similar to Surgeway, but with 3 Splinter Weapons and Blinding Surge instead of Ineptitude.

I also enjoy to dagger spam or Glass Arrows with Expertise attacks on my ranger.

infoscott · Feb 14, 2014, 06:40 PM // 18:40

If used with Mark of Pain, the splinter barrage will do far more damage to a ball than a 100b warrior. One volley from the splinter barrage (or volley skill) will trigger MoP 4 times, while 100b will only trigger it once on the called target. That makes a huge difference when you're trying to spike a ball quickly, especially in areas like DoA. If two or more copies of splinter are on your team, good chance you will clear the ball in 2 - 3 volleys.

Roger Brownthorn · Feb 14, 2014, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Thanks very much for the answer, but how does manly spike team seem to do so much damage? It seems more than a barrage.

MaxBorken · Feb 14, 2014, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Manly spike needs the baddies balled up tightly on the tank to spike. If you can't get them balled up tight, it will only ever be an average damage output.

100b and mop is a good combo, but it is outdated, but was used to spike hard mode baddies. If you are looking at a massive spike, look at dervishes and their Vow of Strength builds. Their spike is greater than a 100b.

But both of these need the baddies balled up really tight, so the adjacent damage takes effect. And for that you need another human player on an assassin or similar tank build to actually ball them up. If the tank can ball 100 baddies, they can all be spiked in one hit by either a 100b or a VoS. The 100b needs MoP though to spike, the dervish doesn't

Max

Roger Brownthorn · Feb 15, 2014, 12:53 AM // 00:53

So does a VoS dervish deal more damage than barrage?

MaxBorken · Feb 15, 2014, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Brownthorn

So does a VoS dervish deal more damage than barrage?

In terms of spike damage a dervish is a far better spike than any other class. The reason I mention them was because you asked about 100b on a warrior, which isn't as good. Having said that. Both will deal more than enough to kill 100,000 baddies in a single spike providing they are all tightly balled by a tank.

In terms of ranger vs warrior, I don't know which does more damage. Perhaps Marty can come in here, cus he's the man for stuff like that.

My point is that a 100b needs a tight ball and MoP for a spike in order to deal huge damage. If the baddies aren't balled then the 100b or VoS aren't so good, and the ranger might be better....

Max

Cuilan · Feb 16, 2014, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Why not post your ranger bar and heroes? You did say you were looking for more damage.

Dervish have Pious Renewal builds for damage. That's really what you'd be looking at if you had a dervish.

Anaraky · Feb 17, 2014, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by infoscott

If used with Mark of Pain, the splinter barrage will do far more damage to a ball than a 100b warrior. One volley from the splinter barrage (or volley skill) will trigger MoP 4 times, while 100b will only trigger it once on the called target. That makes a huge difference when you're trying to spike a ball quickly, especially in areas like DoA. If two or more copies of splinter are on your team, good chance you will clear the ball in 2 - 3 volleys.

This is not at all true. The reason the 100b build works is because the 100b+WW combo which will make you trigger MoP (and/or any other proc based hexes) 1+n times where n is the amount of enemies in the area of effect of WW due to the fact that 100b procs on each individual enemy hit by WW.

Quote:

In terms of spike damage a dervish is a far better spike than any other class. The reason I mention them was because you asked about 100b on a warrior, which isn't as good. Having said that. Both will deal more than enough to kill 100,000 baddies in a single spike providing they are all tightly balled by a tank.

Highlighted part is the key. The whole crux of the balling playstyle is actually getting the enemies that tightly packed, which can kind of be achieved playing only with heroes as well if you are good at pulling and know how to bodyblock at corners etc. Even if you "only" manage to ball a group of 6-8~ or so mobs they'll instantly explode when you unleash your combo, no matter if you are playing Warrior or Dervish. Simply put, once they are balled you've already won.

Quote:

In terms of ranger vs warrior, I don't know which does more damage. Perhaps Marty can come in here, cus he's the man for stuff like that.

Warrior does more damage, assuming the correct conditions. Rangers (and other ranged characters) generally work better in a vacuum then melee characters but melees scale much much better if given the proper conditions.

Quote:

My point is that a 100b needs a tight ball and MoP for a spike in order to deal huge damage. If the baddies aren't balled then the 100b or VoS aren't so good, and the ranger might be better....

This isn't quite true though. Melee characters are, as a rule of thumb, the kings when it comes to pure DPS assuming you've taken the precautions needed to make them work. Hexes, blinds etc can really screw melee characters up but the same way negative status effects can hinder them there are positive ones that can boost them. Strength of Honor is the strongest example of this. +25 unmitigated damage on each hit is absolutely huge and will make a world of difference.

Also, 100b isn't as bad as you make it out during "normal" conditions. Every autohit during 100b will cause 25~ aoe damage, every S&M strike will cause 70~ single target and 50~ aoe damage, even a WW with only three targets in proximity will cause 125~ aoe damage. And with Frenzy or Flail you'll keep pumping out attacks like there is no tomorrow. Add in Barbs, MoP etc and your damage will go through the roof. 100b's damage in a vacuum isn't that impressive during non-balling conditions but it scales insanely well with buffs and debuffs, which will mitigate the reduced effectiveness versus smaller groups of mobs if you design your party around it.

In fact 100b was probably my favourite all-around build when I worked on GWAMM on my Warrior, and I tried them all.

WE Dagger had excellent single-target damage but subpar at AoE (+no shield).
WE Axe is decent at AoE and decent at single-target but not amazing at either.
WE Scythe is pretty much WE Axe + some minor utility and some more AoE damage versus smaller packs but - AoE damage verus big packs and no shield. Fun to try but not as effective as some other builds in my opinion.
DS+SY is defensive overkill in my opinion and you sacrificed a ton of AoE for it, not to mention an unfortunately timed block/blind etc will RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO you over, and your single target damage is pretty weak.
ES's repeated knockdown is good but it only really works when mobs are grouped and as mentioned once they are grouped you've already won. The damage isn't great and you'll have no shield.
DBS (Dwarven Battle Stance) is ES light, but with more DPS and some extra durability. Still not as much damage as WE Dagger or 100b though.

I left out some odder builds out but that is most of the popular ones. All this is just my opinion though, obviously.

In response to OP: I'd suggest try some R/A Dagger variant with a party with some hex/condition removal and SoH if you are looking for max damage on your Ranger. If you are looking at the class with the most damage I'd say it is one of Dervish, Warrior or Assassin depending on circumstances/build etc. However there are still ranged builds that will do very good damage and the upside with those are that a) they don't require as much focus and work to make function well as melees and b) they usually bring either innate strong AoE or utility. Keep in mind though that a lot of what people say when they compare classes, me included, is somewhat in a vacuum and you can find amazing party builds for pretty much every class/decent build out there. It is just that some are more effective or easier to work with then others.

infoscott · Feb 18, 2014, 10:48 PM // 22:48

The original poster implies general PvE, not a specialized SC scenario for FoW/UW/DoA. Unless he has a human perma tagalong to ball his foes for him, my statement about Splinter/Barrage vs 100b still stands.

Anaraky · Feb 19, 2014, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by infoscott

The original poster implies general PvE, not a specialized SC scenario for FoW/UW/DoA. Unless he has a human perma tagalong to ball his foes for him, my statement about Splinter/Barrage vs 100b still stands.

I am talking about general PvE too, as mentioned I used 100b for a large part of my GWAMM grind. Whirlwind Attack has the same AoE (adjacent) as Barrage and you only require three mobs in the area to proc MoP four times with 100b assuming the Warrior doesn't have Splinter Weapon, which he really really should. Three mobs is nothing, you can easily hit four or five at least and with some effort you can ball up even larger groups with body/corner-blocking in general PvE as well even though I personally think it is too much work for the payoff. Not to mention that 100b scales much much better with both number of foes and buffs.

Lets do some math. As mentioned 100b procs on hexes and such = 1+n where n is the number of enemies in the area (adjacent). Barrage+Splinter procs according to this: 1+(1 to 4)n. Above 4n it stops scaling due to using up all Splinter Weapon charges. So, up until a certain point, four mobs, they proc it the same amount of times. But wait! The Warrior could also have Splinter Weapon, not on his own bar but the Ranger shouldn't have it on his own bar either. In that case the Warrior procrate goes up to 1+n+(1 to 4)n, which is clearly superior to the Ranger proc rate. This is not accounting for all the 100b procs on autohits, S&M slash etc. Which will, if attacking the marked target, proc it two and four times respectively.

But at the end of the day, proc rate isn't everything. You do some AoE damage just in the process of proccing. wd = weapondamage. This is assuming both the Ranger and Warrior has their respective weaponskill at 15.
Ranger AoE damage(Splinter): (wd+20+(1 to 4)*41)n
Warrior AoE damage: (wd+20+25*n)n

This is with both completely unbuffed, excepting Splinter on the Ranger. They break even at around 7 mobs, before that the Ranger is ahead. However, as mentioned the Warrior scales very very well with buffs. Lets add some. We'll start with adding Splinter Weapon since, as mentioned, a Warrior party really should have it.
Ranger AoE damage(Splinter): (wd+20+(1 to 4)*41)n
Warrior AoE damage(Splinter): (wd+20+25*n+(1 to 4)*41)*n

When both have Splinter, the Warrior outdamage the Ranger at every mobcount, and the larger the group the larger the difference, since the only difference is the 25*n*n in the Warrior favour. If we add on stuff like SoH that will extend the lead even further, making the difference (25+25*n)n in the Warriors favour. This amounts to 50 damage lead versus one mob, 150 damage lead versus two, 500 damage lead versus four etc. So at four mobs, the ideal for Barrage+Splinter, the Ranger will do 736 damage on each cast of Barrage. A Warrior with Splinter+SoH will do 1236 damage on each WWA.

This is all excluding autohits and such which will benefit the Warrior greatly. With an 33% IAS, easily achievable, the Warrior will hit once a second which, assuming SoH and 100b up, will deal wd+25+25*n. Each autohit. Barrage by comparison does (wd+20)n damage each cast.

TL;DR: 100b, given the correct party, will outdamage the Ranger by far even in standard PvE conditions. Once we approach mob stacks of 6+ it isn't even a fair comparison anymore.

Roger Brownthorn · Feb 19, 2014, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Thanks very much for your detailed answers, I am at the point of the game where I can afford any weapon and even roll with 7 mesmers and full consets 40/40 weapons so I really don't care about any limits I just want to get the maximum dps, the dps that liquidates any enemies into tiny smoldering corpses within milliseconds.

Anaraky so you clearly state 100b is more damage than ranger, is VoS even higher than warrior with the same buff setup? I am simply asking if I should delete my level 10 warrior and start a dervish, its not like I invested much time into anything yet.

I want the maximum possible dps possible in the game.

Anaraky · Feb 19, 2014, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Brownthorn

Thanks very much for your detailed answers, I am at the point of the game where I can afford any weapon and even roll with 7 mesmers and full consets 40/40 weapons so I really don't care about any limits I just want to get the maximum dps, the dps that liquidates any enemies into tiny smoldering corpses within milliseconds.

Anaraky so you clearly state 100b is more damage than ranger, is VoS even higher than warrior with the same buff setup? I am simply asking if I should delete my level 10 warrior and start a dervish, its not like I invested much time into anything yet.

I want the maximum possible dps possible in the game.

I haven't played a lot of Dervish since the rework, so I can't give you a ton of first hand knowledge. But comparing the standard VoS and 100b build as per PvX we can see that they both have their pros and cons.

Warrior pros: Higher armor (assuming Sentinel's insignia + Shield the Warrior has 116 armor versus the Dervish's 80), slightly better IAS (33% versus 25%), innate armor-pen due to Strength, slightly higher damage on 100b then VoS (due to narrower stat spread), isn't too bothered with enchantment removal, FGJ! for great burst adrenal regen, isn't locked into a secondary class (although pretty much every skill will be a Warrior skill anyway, so doesn't matter much), higher attackspeed on Swords then Scythes.

Dervish pros: Sand Shards (great additional AoE damage), VoS has higher uptime then 100b (assuming no stripping), has two AoE attacks (WWA+Eremites, assuming you have en enchantment you are willing to strip) which will help both damage and adrenal regen, innate cleave with scythes.

Both are really powerful classes and you can't really go wrong with either, but if you are looking for max damage I would go Dervish. You trade some innate sturdiness and ability to ignore enchantment strips for Sand Shards + higher uptime on VoS + innate cleave, which is a pretty good trade.

Cuilan · Feb 19, 2014, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Doesn't the dervish spells hit wider because of the scythe?

jon comgree · Feb 20, 2014, 06:13 AM // 06:13

problem with dervish is exactly that, enchantment spell.

imo play wat u think is fun, both are extremely strong and theres not much in GW (besides UW/doa & WoC) that requires much effort if u take heros.

edit:

also, you wanted best dps ingame? Assumign your playing alone with heros, isnt rangerway the greatest DPS hero settup?

Roger Brownthorn · Feb 20, 2014, 10:58 AM // 10:58

I have not tried rangerway yet, I actually made a ranger just for it but got bored because it does such little damage with barrage. I want big damage, I want the screen to fill with numbers and mobs to not even have a chance to cast before dying a horrible death.

I wish someone would perform some actual test between dervish and 100b, wasn't there some unofficial methods of parsing damage somewhere?

Anaraky · Feb 20, 2014, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Doesn't the dervish spells hit wider because of the scythe?

The base range of Scythes are longer then those of other melee weapons but I don't think that applies to skills. I would be surprised if it does, but I cannot say with confidence one way or another.

Quote:

I have not tried rangerway yet, I actually made a ranger just for it but got bored because it does such little damage with barrage. I want big damage, I want the screen to fill with numbers and mobs to not even have a chance to cast before dying a horrible death.

I wish someone would perform some actual test between dervish and 100b, wasn't there some unofficial methods of parsing damage somewhere?

Both 100b and VoS will absolutely explode group of mobs, no question about it. VoS has somewhat higher AoE spike though because of Sand Shards, the question is simply if you are willing and able to deal with enchantment strips and somewhat lower durability.

As jon comgree said, play whatever you prefer. You won't be dissatisfied with the damage from either as long as you run a decent party around it.

Cuilan · Feb 20, 2014, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

The base range of Scythes are longer then those of other melee weapons but I don't think that applies to skills. I would be surprised if it does, but I cannot say with confidence one way or another.

VoS, Eremite's Attack, an enchantment for EA, Whirlwind Attack, and SShards. Then try 100B with Whirlwind Attack for attacking Practice Target to see if you can hit the nearby test foe in Isle of the Nameless.

Wenspire · Feb 21, 2014, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Ranger with Barrage/Splinter has the advantage vs. stationary enemy groups since you can pretty much launch the first volley of arrows (with a long ranged bow of course) without even agroing. If you are good at microing, queue up the splinter on all your rangers and find a way to have them fire at the same time. Guaranteed instant death of the group. Downside is it is time consuming to prepare.

Roger Brownthorn · Feb 21, 2014, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Wenspire thanks for the sick idea! haha this certainly makes the prospect of playing a ranger more fun.