Curse

jimbo32 · Nov 14, 2011, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Hey folks,

I've seen a few comments lately regarding the amount of "lowball" offers on Guru (and to a lesser extent, in-game as well). There's also been quite a few high-end threads which end up closed or abandoned due to the seller being unhappy with the quality of the bids.

So here's what I'd like to hear some opinions on...

Do you think it's true that Guru traders (in general) are really a bunch of good-for-nothing lowballers, or is it simply that people are unwilling to accept the fact that their items aren't worth what they think?

My opinion is that an item is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it. If an item hasn't reached the seller's r/b after weeks of thread bumps, it's probably overpriced rather than being a victim of lowballers.

Thoughts?

(As an aside, am I the only one who's noticed that shaky, common, or mediocre oldschools seem to have ridiculously high price tags lately?)

tooburns · Nov 14, 2011, 01:55 AM // 01:55

1- sometime seller want to sell high to fast and after 2-3 day they are not happy and leave it behind for ever

2- Show off thread .. i sell every thing blah blah ... and always end never selling... there's some item for sale on here for over a years and just coming up again and again end again and point 3 coming

3- Seller want crazy price pecause in their mind that item is 1 of 1 so get ecto out if you want it .... i mean crazy price .... not 25-50e over but they are so blind by that 1 of 1 they never gonna sell because they asking rly too much

4- Low ball ... im not gonna bring name on but i can think of some dude biding every where low offer (maybe just to show off)... what's the point of biding 50e on q9 inscr crysta (exemple) just gtfo and delete your guru account plz
4.1 Rookies POWA TRADA MOTHA FCKA trying to get low to resell high but they dont get the point of trading ... and looking for hundred of item to sell insted of doind 2-3 good deal so the bid every where and we are all nuubs for those stupid dude (ask ms magic about crystaline lol) and that bring 4.2
4.2 Jalous people... who fake bid huge ammount or low ball as fck because they can't affroid that item

5- But but but but i think there is still a good trader comunity with some nice trader who sell for right price, buy for right price, help each other and those one are guys you can trust 110%

6. about that

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo32

My opinion is that an item is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it. If an item hasn't reached the seller's r/b after weeks of thread bumps, it's probably overpriced rather than being a victim of lowballers.

+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo32

(As an aside, am I the only one who's noticed that shaky, common, or mediocre oldschools seem to have ridiculously high price tags lately?)

1 - maybe because people have moar money those day and just dont care, they want they buy

2 - Bad price checking , bad information ... you get the point ...going right in to a fail sale again ...

sry for my bad and poor english but im trying hard

Elnino · Nov 14, 2011, 06:44 AM // 06:44

I'm not a hardcore trader or anything but I've done my fair share of it and I don't really have any problem with lowballers because once the serious offers start coming in, they stop posting. It could also be a good thing because they add more replies to your thread and I don't know about you but I'm usually more tempted to view threads with more replies. More exposure I guess.

What I've noticed is a lot more items being put up with ridiculously high r/b and b/o prices. Heck, there's one thread where the seller has doubled or even tripled the price of their old school items (you might know who). My guess is power trading.

In the perspective of someone who's no where near as rich as some of the traders, I think a lot of items (excluding some super rarities) have incredibly inflated prices. Maybe you guys could explain it to me! For example, q8 axes can't drop anymore but q8 swords can so why are the swords worth more? You pretty much had to have started (power)trading by 2007 in order to afford a lot of the items these days.

David Moonbow · Nov 14, 2011, 07:19 AM // 07:19

the only thing good i can say about lowball offers is.... free bump

the other thing is the collector thread is all well and good to show off but alot of trades have happened since its been active i see so many o/s trades everyone wanting to sell at the same time just my 2 cents.

i am not heavy wep collector anymore but i feel with the sudden increase in o/s so many ppl trying to get the best deal(lowball)

Rushin Roulette · Nov 14, 2011, 08:16 AM // 08:16

I see the sellers at fault for lowball offers. What is the point of a starting bid when they obviously will not accept that price (Starting bid of 1K for an obviously highend mini for example). Make the S/B in the sales thread your R/B and everything is fine.

Dont screw around for weeks on end for one measly item if you 1. dont want to sell and 2. people dont know what you are willing to sell for. This will only let the thread be abandoned by buyers because they see the OP being 5 weeks old and still nothing sold even though they have been the highest bidder for 4 of those weeks.

Mouse at Large · Nov 14, 2011, 10:51 AM // 10:51

I'm not a power-trader and have no axe to grind with those who have. I've been playing the game for over 6 years and long ago decided to go for substance over style

That having been said, I think Jimbo's post summed it up perfectly. The only value of any item (above merch value) is what someone is willing to pay for it when it's offered for sale. "Lowballers" can be ignored by the seller regardless of their motives. But think a moment - everyone who calls themselves a "power trader" is or was in fact, to some degree a successful "lowballer"

bodyboarder · Nov 14, 2011, 11:27 AM // 11:27

I wouldn't say that every person that calls themselves a "power trader" is a lowballer...most of the time its just getting lucky or someone not knowing the value of an item and selling cheap..that is not lowballing thats just accepting the price of the seller therefore being lucky.

Mouse at Large · Nov 14, 2011, 11:48 AM // 11:48

In my opinion, to use "lowballer" in a pejorative sense is to describe a bidding from people that have absolutey no intention (or means) of actually buying the item - the sort of 1k response to s/b 1k threads in high-end.

When I said "everyone who calls themselves a "power trader" is or was in fact, to some degree a successful "lowballer", it was not meant to be an insult, simply a way of saying that power trading involves bidding and buying low in the hope of making a substantial profit on a later sale. Nothing immoral in that

LicensedLuny · Nov 14, 2011, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Good idea for a thread! I'm interested to read the replies, but I hope it doesn't turn into a flame or whining fest. I can understand the topic touching a lot of nerves, but I'm hoping folks can keep it diplomatic enough to keep it interesting.

tl;dr and/or "No, I don't want to take your stupid test, Luny! - Skip to the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo32

Hey folks,

I've seen a few comments lately regarding the amount of "lowball" offers on Guru (and to a lesser extent, in-game as well). There's also been quite a few high-end threads which end up closed or abandoned due to the seller being unhappy with the quality of the bids.

My only issue with what you just said there is your use of "few" and "lately." I've been involved in trading off and on since sometime in 2007 I think. I've never seen a time where there weren't a notable number of threads with rather negative-sounding comments from the owners indicating disappointment/frustration with "lowballers."

Quote:

So here's what I'd like to hear some opinions on...

Do you think it's true that Guru traders (in general) are really a bunch of good-for-nothing lowballers, or is it simply that people are unwilling to accept the fact that their items aren't worth what they think?

I don't think it's either of those because I don't think you can make such a generalization that covers the entire "Guru traders (in general)" group. We're too varied a bunch!

We, the Guru traders, are a subset of GW traders. It should come as no surprise that the game lacks anything nearly approaching a common venue for trading. Different players can have an astoundingly different set of experiences and observations which lead them to form their opinions on something as subjective as the "fair market value" in Monopoly money of certain pixels.

Please also consider that different players have different priorities and goals in this game. What might strike you as, "What a shameful waste of one's hard earned fake-money! Such insanity!" might well strike someone else as, "What a priceless keepsake and reminder of such wonderful fun!" or perhaps as, "I'm here playing this game to have fun <doing something besides trade> in my spare time! I don't care about the fake-money, I just want this icky trading done now so I can get back to my fun." You don't all have to agree, far from it! But none of the above outlooks are right, and none are wrong.

Quote:

My opinion is that an item is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it. If an item hasn't reached the seller's r/b after weeks of thread bumps, it's probably overpriced rather than being a victim of lowballers.

Thoughts?

I would agree but with the following noted considerations.

1) Realize that your example above is not necessarily complete.
"If an item hasn't reached the seller's r/b after weeks of thread bumps, it's probably overpriced rather than ..." should read
"If an item hasn't reached the seller's r/b after weeks of thread bumps, it's probably overpriced in the current market at the current venue rather than ..."

2) The current owner of a shiny pixel gets the final say in the minimum amount of slimy pink goo they're willing to accept for their prized pixel, period. If the seller isn't willing to let it go for what a buyer is willing to pay, then the buyer has to live with that.

I propose a test for anyone who cares to try. Look at the following items. Honestly, ask yourself what single set prices you would choose if you HAD to. Do this BEFORE you click the spoiler button.

gold Eternal Shield
ar 16, r9 Strength
Health +28
-2stance
inherent dual mods
-----------------------
gold Crude Shield
ar 16, r9 Tactics
+9ar vs. Demons
19% +1 Curses
inherent dual mods
-----------------------
gold Bladed Shield
ar 16, r9 Tactics
20% +1 Earth Magic
+10ar vs. Demons
-----------------------
gold Dolyak Prod Staff
max, r9, inscribable (of course)
attached 20% enchanting wrap
-----------------------
purple Piercing Axe
max, r9, inscribable
junk attached mods
-----------------------
gold Wingblade Sword
max, r12
inherent +5 en
-----------------------
Wintergreen Scythe
The inscribable r0 10-10 scythes from the early XTH at Wintersday 06/07.

Ok, remember - be honest with yourself! You needn't post your guesses or your results. I ask only that you are honest with yourself about how you would PC the above items.

gold Eternal Shield
ar 16, r9 Strength
Health +28
-2stance
inherent dual mods

I recently watched this one listed on a fansite auction system where listings and bids are binding. A quick check of the stats tells me there are about 12,000 total registered users and about 1,700 active listings at the moment. On this system, all a visitor or user has to do in order to see a list of, say, all the gold shields without inscription slots for sale, is set two drop down choices and type "!inscription" in a certain field and then push search and browse the results.

This particular shield had an opening bid of 10k, no buyout set, and ran for a week or so. There was one bidder. He won for the 10k starting bid. No one outbid him.
So, would you agree fair market value is 10k for that one?

-----------------------
gold Crude Shield
ar 16, r9 Tactics
+9ar vs. Demons
19% +1 Curses
inherent dual mods

This one recently popped up in a PC thread. The first response(s) said it was merchfood. I thought it was most certainly worth at least trying to sell, so I posted a reply expressing such. I couldn't even guess what number to give the guy for reasonable PC. Another user replied, too, that it wasn't merchfood and the owner should try to get "30k at least."

A day or two later it appeared in the user's Sell thread. I thought it looked cool when I saw it in the PC thread, but it did not quite fit my own collection of such things' criteria. I wasn't going to bid on it at all, on my honor I was not going to. Completely to my surprise, a number of influences combined in my head in a flash akin to weather systems forming those "Perfect Storms," and I suddenly HAD to have it in my collection of treasures.

I just now picked it up for my winning bid of 50e (that's right - fifty ecto, it's not a typo. So something like 350-400k depending on where ecto is these days.) I freely admit that this one now has sentimental value to me and my offers shouldn't be considered as indicative of "market price" for such things when trying to PC similar shields! But other bidders liked the look of it, too, and I had to keep raising my offer. Other than my own, the next highest offer was 30e.

I handed over those 50 balls of slimy pink goo eagerly and with a smile on my face! To me, it may not be the best thing I ever bought, but it's safely in the top ten.
How about it? Put aside my own nutty compulsions. Is the next highest bidder's 30e offer a reasonable price for this one? Were the 25-60k bids that came before lowballing?

-----------------------
gold Bladed Shield
ar 16, r9 Tactics
20% +1 Earth Magic
+10ar vs. Demons

About a year ago (well into the popularity of DoA SC and the 10vDemons shield craze) this shield came up on the auction system here at Guru. I thought it was funky and liked it. So I posted a bid (with a hidden proxy max) and won it for 30.5k. No one else's bid pushed my final price any higher.
Given the funky Crude Shield example above, was this one's fair market value 30k back then? How about if I sold it now? Still 30k?

-----------------------
gold Dolyak Prod Staff
max, r9, inscribable (of course)
attached 20% enchanting wrap

Sometime in the past week or so I passed through GtoB and saw a player was spamming something like, "WTB Dolyak Prod Staff w/ 20% enchanting 90k" I had no spares of these handy in the for-sale section of my storage, but I knew I had at least one in my own private stock of junk. I whispered him and asked if there was more to it, or that was really all he wanted. He assured me it was. I told him I'd swap characters and find him one, figuring the odds of him not finding ten or more willing sellers before I dug mine out were pretty low. But it was worth a shot. I found the staff on a hero and slapped an enchanting wrap on it. I went back and put it in the trade window. I asked him if there were any other mods he needed for it and to make sure it was, in fact, what he wanted. He said it was, put 90k in the trade window and accepted. I asked him if he was sure he wanted to pay 90k for this? He said yes. I accepted.

I picked up another one to replace my own copy off a thread here for the 2k buyout price listed. I used a spare enchanting wrap which I'd have otherwise sold for 5-10k while standing around Kamadan sometime.

EDIT - Nov 18 - I am so very sorry I didn't think to mention this warning when I first posted this, but ...
Be careful with such cases! You should not respond to an overpriced WTB ad like the above by buying an item to sell the person!
That's a fairly common scam. Assume "staff of jerk" is a common item, easily found for 5k from any number of players. Bob spams "WTB staff of jerk 200e!!!" Bob's other account spams "WTS staff of jerk 100e!!!" Bob is hoping you'll overpay by 99e for a 5k item hoping to make a quick profit. Bob's other account will not actually give you 200e for the staff! In the example above, I already had the thing the guy with the overpriced WTB ad was asking for.
/EDIT
So, is the official price 90k or ~10k tops?

-----------------------
purple Piercing Axe
max, r9, inscribable
junk attached mods

About a year ago I saw someone spamming in Kamadan offering 100k+10zk for any max, inscribable piercing damage axe. I knew I had one stashed away somewhere in my junk piles on mule characters, and I doubted I'd get to the guy before another seller did. But it was worth a shot! I whispered offering him my purple one. He promptly met up with me in GtoB and handed me the ~150k price then went about his merry way. I did ask him if he was sure first. He was - he just wanted it FAST!

EDIT - Nov 18 - I am so very sorry I didn't think to mention this warning when I first posted this, but ...
Be careful with such cases! You should not respond to an overpriced WTB ad like the above by buying an item to sell the person!
That's a fairly common scam. Assume "staff of jerk" is a common item, easily found for 5k from any number of players. Bob spams "WTB staff of jerk 200e!!!" Bob's other account spams "WTS staff of jerk 100e!!!" Bob is hoping you'll overpay by 99e for a 5k item hoping to make a quick profit. Bob's other account will not actually give you 200e for the staff! In the example above, I already had the thing the guy with the overpriced WTB ad was asking for.
/EDIT
Is everyone going to start keeping Piercing Axes and Battlepicks handy now?

-----------------------
gold Wingblade Sword
max, r12
inherent +5 en

The other day a good friend and alliance-mate was selling off his spare junk from his own loot in Kamadan. He surprised me when he told me he sold this sword for 7k right away. I'd have guessed it was merchfood! I was so shocked that it inspired me to include asking about these swords in my most recent PC thread. None of the folks answering with specific PC numbers or ranges for my r9 examples gave me any reason to think they'd have guessed 7k for my friend's r12.
Did you guess 7k for the r12 +5 Wingblade?

-----------------------
Wintergreen Scythe
The inscribable r0 10-10 scythes from the early XTH at Wintersday 06/07.

A couple weeks ago there was a trade ad up in LA as I passed through that went, "WTS Wintergreen Scythe 20k" I whispered the seller, asking if they were really selling that and if 20k was really the price. The guy replied yes and was happy to meet up and show me. He put it in trade; I put 20k in trade; he clicked accept. Before clicking, I asked him if he was sure about this. He said yes, that's the PC he found for them when he looked it up (he never did tell me where that was.) I told him I thought it seemed pretty low to me. I was willing to buy it for 20k, but I wanted him to be sure before we traded. He seemed a nice guy, admitted he wasn't so good at trading, and told me he would double check price again. I said I would wait. A few minutes later he got back to me and told me he'd seen his mistake and now realized they were more like 20e (thankfully!) He seemed a very nice fellow and very apologetic. He offered to sell me the scythe for something like 15e instead. I thanked him and declined, admitting it was only his (to my eye) irresistibly low 20k price that had me interested and I did not need another one. I wished him the best of luck.

When I found this guy, he'd been in LA for a while with that trade ad up based on the position his line was in P. And he struck me as unusually eager and excited to find an interested buyer when I whispered, especially since he was offering a deal I'm sure would've attracted some quick replies in Kamadan.
Since he'd waited, in his opinion, so long to find an interested buyer for 20k, would you PC Wintergreen Scythes at 20k now?

I'm liking these spoiler tags! They're not as awesome as bullet lists, of course, but the more buttons to push around here, the better!

PLEASE don't misunderstand - I am not trying to be condescending or patronizing with the test above. I've tried to pick examples from my own experiences trading to best demonstrate how impossible the odds are that each of our experiences and priorities in GW lead us all to the same conclusions on the price of gear.

I'm trying to avoid anything incendiary here, so please forgive me for any rage the following ignites within any of you. In my opinion, it's silly for a seller in that case to complain about lowballers. However, it seems equally silly for a buyer in that case to complain about overpricing. Perhaps I'm reading too much into your comments jimbo, but it seems to me like you are getting dangerously close to falling victim to the flip-side of such silliness. Breathe buddy! Breathe!

I don't mean to tease you, honest. I just see the arguments here as having the potential to be rather hypocritical and wanted to warn against such.

Quote:

(As an aside, am I the only one who's noticed that shaky, common, or mediocre oldschools seem to have ridiculously high price tags lately?)

Yes and no. Since I've been back I've seen what strikes me as more interest in inherent and collector gear than I remember from 6-12 mo. ago when I was last paying attention. I would guess that's due to more players returning from long breaks lately and nostalgia value. I would say the prices seem higher, yes. I would not call them ridiculous, as they seem to be selling for such prices easily enough.

As for the common mediocre oldschool skins, I think that is most definitely from the returning players' nostalgia and personal tastes based on what they first saw in trade threads to drool over when it was just Prophecies or just Prophecies and Factions. I've got the impression that's around the time Ventari's usage peaked, but I could be wrong.

tl;dr - If you just got here with search then you missed the pop quiz and the chance to push a button!

To my way of thinking, there is too much variation in players' experiences and priorities in this game coupled with too many different venues where players meet to trade gear for anyone to be able to give 100% accurate assessments of items' prices.

I find taking offense from disagreements over the fake-money value of pixels a silly concept. Some buyers' grumblings about prices seem just as silly to me as some sellers' grumblings about lowballers. I guess some of you just enjoy getting a good rage on.

My most sincere wishes that each of you continues to find ways to keep having fun playing this game after all these years!

Cheers,
Luny

End · Nov 14, 2011, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicensedLuny

gold Eternal Shield
ar 16, r9 Strength
Health +28
-2stance
inherent dual mods

I recently watched this one listed on a fansite auction system where listings and bids are binding. A quick check of the stats tells me there are about 12,000 total registered users and about 1,700 active listings at the moment. On this system, all a visitor or user has to do in order to see a list of, say, all the gold shields without inscription slots for sale, is set two drop down choices and type "!inscription" in a certain field and then push search and browse the results.

This particular shield had an opening bid of 10k, no buyout set, and ran for a week or so. There was one bidder. He won for the 10k starting bid. No one outbid him.
So, would you agree fair market value is 10k for that one?

The site in question is a separate market. I know what site you are speaking of...and you have to admit there aren't a ton of really high end buyers and sellers on there. While Guru has a larger selection of people including more high end buyers and sellers meaning its closer to what you would see in game.

-----------------------
gold Crude Shield
ar 16, r9 Tactics
+9ar vs. Demons
19% +1 Curses
inherent dual mods

This one recently popped up in a PC thread. The first response(s) said it was merchfood. I thought it was most certainly worth at least trying to sell, so I posted a reply expressing such. I couldn't even guess what number to give the guy for reasonable PC. Another user replied, too, that it wasn't merchfood and the owner should try to get "30k at least."

A day or two later it appeared in the user's Sell thread. I thought it looked cool when I saw it in the PC thread, but it did not quite fit my own collection of such things' criteria. I wasn't going to bid on it at all, on my honor I was not going to. Completely to my surprise, a number of influences combined in my head in a flash akin to weather systems forming those "Perfect Storms," and I suddenly HAD to have it in my collection of treasures.

I just now picked it up for my winning bid of 50e (that's right - fifty ecto, it's not a typo. So something like 350-400k depending on where ecto is these days.) I freely admit that this one now has sentimental value to me and my offers shouldn't be considered as indicative of "market price" for such things when trying to PC similar shields! But other bidders liked the look of it, too, and I had to keep raising my offer. Other than my own, the next highest offer was 30e.

I handed over those 50 balls of slimy pink goo eagerly and with a smile on my face! To me, it may not be the best thing I ever bought, but it's safely in the top ten.
How about it? Put aside my own nutty compulsions. Is the next highest bidder's 30e offer a reasonable price for this one? Were the 25-60k bids that came before lowballing?

the thing here is usefulness. This sheild has the demons mod which is great and all but on its own not worth paying a ton for. Coupled with a mod that could be considered useful and the question of how useful people consider it could vary from person to person. So were those bids lowballs...no...they were people assessing the values differently.

-----------------------
gold Bladed Shield
ar 16, r9 Tactics
20% +1 Earth Magic
+10ar vs. Demons

About a year ago (well into the popularity of DoA SC and the 10vDemons shield craze) this shield came up on the auction system here at Guru. I thought it was funky and liked it. So I posted a bid (with a hidden proxy max) and won it for 30.5k. No one else's bid pushed my final price any higher.
Given the funky Crude Shield example above, was this one's fair market value 30k back then? How about if I sold it now? Still 30k?

Honestly, thats about what I put it at >.>

-----------------------
gold Dolyak Prod Staff
max, r9, inscribable (of course)
attached 20% enchanting wrap

Sometime in the past week or so I passed through GtoB and saw a player was spamming something like, "WTB Dolyak Prod Staff w/ 20% enchanting 90k" I had no spares of these handy in the for-sale section of my storage, but I knew I had at least one in my own private stock of junk. I whispered him and asked if there was more to it, or that was really all he wanted. He assured me it was. I told him I'd swap characters and find him one, figuring the odds of him not finding ten or more willing sellers before I dug mine out were pretty low. But it was worth a shot. I found the staff on a hero and slapped an enchanting wrap on it. I went back and put it in the trade window. I asked him if there were any other mods he needed for it and to make sure it was, in fact, what he wanted. He said it was, put 90k in the trade window and accepted. I asked him if he was sure he wanted to pay 90k for this? He said yes. I accepted.

I picked up another one to replace my own copy off a thread here for the 2k buyout price listed. I used a spare enchanting wrap which I'd have otherwise sold for 5-10k while standing around Kamadan sometime.
So, is the official price 90k or ~10k tops?

10k. If you really like Chocolate bars and I have a nice wonderous super dark chocolate bar here and you haven't eaten in ages and you had a large amount of funds...I could probably sell you this chocolate bar for well more then its worth that dosent change it's true value it just makes you an exception

-----------------------
purple Piercing Axe
max, r9, inscribable
junk attached mods

About a year ago I saw someone spamming in Kamadan offering 100k+10zk for any max, inscribable piercing damage axe. I knew I had one stashed away somewhere in my junk piles on mule characters, and I doubted I'd get to the guy before another seller did. But it was worth a shot! I whispered offering him my purple one. He promptly met up with me in GtoB and handed me the ~150k price then went about his merry way. I did ask him if he was sure first. He was - he just wanted it FAST!
Is everyone going to start keeping Piercing Axes and Battlepicks handy now?

This is a damn good chocolate bar

-----------------------
gold Wingblade Sword
max, r12
inherent +5 en

The other day a good friend and alliance-mate was selling off his spare junk from his own loot in Kamadan. He surprised me when he told me he sold this sword for 7k right away. I'd have guessed it was merchfood! I was so shocked that it inspired me to include asking about these swords in my most recent PC thread. None of the folks answering with specific PC numbers or ranges for my r9 examples gave me any reason to think they'd have guessed 7k for my friend's r12.
Did you guess 7k for the r12 +5 Wingblade?

Pretty much so...He just happened to find someone who needs a +5 e sword faster then I would have expected

-----------------------
Wintergreen Scythe
The inscribable r0 10-10 scythes from the early XTH at Wintersday 06/07.

A couple weeks ago there was a trade ad up in LA as I passed through that went, "WTS Wintergreen Scythe 20k" I whispered the seller, asking if they were really selling that and if 20k was really the price. The guy replied yes and was happy to meet up and show me. He put it in trade; I put 20k in trade; he clicked accept. Before clicking, I asked him if he was sure about this. He said yes, that's the PC he found for them when he looked it up (he never did tell me where that was.) I told him I thought it seemed pretty low to me. I was willing to buy it for 20k, but I wanted him to be sure before we traded. He seemed a nice guy, admitted he wasn't so good at trading, and told me he would double check price again. I said I would wait. A few minutes later he got back to me and told me he'd seen his mistake and now realized they were more like 20e (thankfully!) He seemed a very nice fellow and very apologetic. He offered to sell me the scythe for something like 15e instead. I thanked him and declined, admitting it was only his (to my eye) irresistibly low 20k price that had me interested and I did not need another one. I wished him the best of luck.

When I found this guy, he'd been in LA for a while with that trade ad up based on the position his line was in P. And he struck me as unusually eager and excited to find an interested buyer when I whispered, especially since he was offering a deal I'm sure would've attracted some quick replies in Kamadan.
Since he'd waited, in his opinion, so long to find an interested buyer for 20k, would you PC Wintergreen Scythes at 20k now?

I think I remember seeing that guy and assumed he was selling an overpriced pepermint one xD Again this is another case like me not knowing that this chocolate bar only cost like 2$ and selling it to you for 50 cents because to me 50 cents is alot and couldn't imagine anything being more then that.

The market value of an item should be considered the average between all the trades of that item. Some are bound to be higher and some are bound to be lower. And occasionally you are going to have outliers (maybe quite a few when talking about a sample size for a couple thousand trades)

_____________________________

I was going to comment on the actual thread but I'm out of time. I will be editing this at a later time when I have access to a computer again.

carnage-runner · Nov 14, 2011, 04:00 PM // 16:00

This has come up a few times.
Yes, there are a lot of lowballers on guru.
No, that does not mean someones prices are outrageous.

Yes, I want premium ecto for my items, and I always consider my prices against what others have paid, or asked for in recent weeks/months or the last time one of what I have was sold.

If I don't get the price I want, it is my decision as the seller to change the price.

My personal opinion is that there are a lot of players on guru now who lowball to post farm, include themselves in the community in any way, or because the genuinely think they can get an item for a cheap price. Usually i don't mind, but it is annoying sometimes.

There was a time when b/o's were reasonable, and they were taken if you wanted an item. R/b's are only a recent thing. Some may call that a double standard, but I think my b/o's are reasonable. So who's to say... Maybe b/o's are reasonable, and all the reasonable ones are being taken too quickly because the community is very active in highend. Or maybe all the b/o's are unreasonable and we are all just epeener's. IMO.. that's what the showoff thread or collection thread is for. Highend is for selling.

Essence Snow · Nov 14, 2011, 04:11 PM // 16:11

I am of the opinion that if there is a r/b there is only 1 reason to have a s/b lower than it......extra thread bumps. Kinda of a sneaky way to bypass ventari bumping rules.

As for prices..I simply don't understand some sheild prices are they are bugged and don't work properly..making the sorta crap...and although dino crap might be rare..it's still crap.

Ariena Najea · Nov 14, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

I am of the opinion that if there is a r/b there is only 1 reason to have a s/b lower than it......extra thread bumps. Kinda of a sneaky way to bypass ventari bumping rules.

As for prices..I simply don't understand some sheild prices are they are bugged and don't work properly..making the sorta crap...and although dino crap might be rare..it's still crap.

About a year ago, I remember regularly seeing -2/-2 or -2/-3 shields be a tough sell at 80-100k, even at lower requirements. I am currently in the market for one, and the best price I have found so far for the r12 (common skin) I am looking for is 30e!

LicensedLuny · Nov 14, 2011, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

The market value of an item should be considered the average between all the trades of that item. Some are bound to be higher and some are bound to be lower. And occasionally you are going to have outliers (maybe quite a few when talking about a sample size for a couple thousand trades)

Agreed - should be

But we, the playerbase as a whole, have no way to find that average. There's no single venue with actual prices recorded which the majority use. Over the years, players have tried to fill the void by spamming in game and/or creating fansites with support for trading. The result is little sub-markets with their own trends. To me, these issues of seeing prices as too high or offers too low are due to potential sellers and buyers coming from different GW trading backgrounds.

My argument is that such disagreements are guaranteed to happen in the system(s) we have to work with here, and I think it's a shame to let such disagreements upset you or spoil your own fun.

I graded your test. You get an F ... just because you're End ... and you made me want chocolate now.

**cosyfiep** · Nov 14, 2011, 06:20 PM // 18:20

yeah, Luny--I will be here to make sure things stay ON TOPIC

(and I took your test--only the wintergreen I would say wasnt merch food--good thing I dont to price check

)

and me want chocolate now too

pawning jock · Nov 14, 2011, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

You pretty much had to have started (power)trading by 2007 in order to afford a lot of the items these days.

not true you can earn that kind of money in a few months...

but on the topic.. I find that if i cant get what i want for my item on guru... i am often able to get that or more for it in kamadan. it will often require patience and time but it is well worth it. It takes time to find a person who sees the same value in your item as you do.

I find that often people on guru will like an item but wont buy it unless they can get a bargain which is normal as everyone likes a bargain but then often the seller doesnt feel his/her item is worth that price and the trade will break down

lowballers occur more in kamadan than on guru where the lowballers in kamadan will offer a very low amount in hope that the seller isnt aware of his/her price. It isn't stupid as people do strike lucky.. as i have bought a q9 Heal Froggy for 100k and struck lucky there.

this isnt a very structured message but ya ^^

wilderness · Nov 14, 2011, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicensedLuny

Cheers,
Luny

Girl, I told you before, you crazy!

(I do appreciate the craziness)

Anyway, I know what you're trying to highlight, but these trades you mention are outliers. I think what Jimbo is getting at more is the higher-end stuff that's popping up recently with buyers getting bids of xxx ecto-xxx arms, reaching a crux point where no more bids come in, and shutting the thread down with statements like "sorry, no decent offers - keeping item!" (correct me if I'm wrong, Jimbo).

The problem as I see it lies with the expectations of sellers in the current market. People see high end items like tonics and really rare OS stuff selling thousands of ecto/hundreds of arms and they get it into their heads that their item is worth a certain amount based on the higher-end of recent trades, rather than letting the auction happen naturally and letting the item find its equilibrium within the current levels of supply and demand.

There are certain items that it's easier to gauge, items that have sold recently or are more common, but for certain items such as unconditionals or extremely limited pets or tonics, it really is about who is looking to by right now than any preconceived notion of value.

Internetuser · Nov 14, 2011, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Lurk Ventaris enough, you'll soon see it's almost always the same people bidding for things then backing out when bids get into selling range. It gets boring after a while, but as a seller these lowballers are giving you free bumps.

Free bumps are good? No? :P

David Moonbow · Nov 14, 2011, 11:06 PM // 23:06

agree with someone above tere if you dont want low ball offers set a high enough s/b and r/b say no 1k/1e/1arm increments and get it over with down side is the free bumps u get from the low offers to staying top of page.

jimbo32 · Nov 15, 2011, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicensedLuny

Good idea for a thread! ....snipped the rest...

I love how Luny says this at the beginning and then finds fault with every single part of my opening post.

Seriously though, just to clarify, here's a few things that I couldn't give a rat's ass about (with bullet points because I know Luny loves them) :

Specific or individual trades
pricing outliers
the evils of generalizing about the Guru population and GW traders
the evils of powertraders
the evils of lowballers
free thread bumps
suggestions regarding how best to avoid lowballers when selling
Any other ridiculousness which isn't related to my point (see below)

I'm learning that I need to be as specific as possible when posting on Guru, so here's what I'd like to see in this thread:

Discussion relating to the differences between sellers (in general) idea of price and the actual value of items.
1. Where do sellers generally get their ideas of item prices? Occasionally out of their asses?
2. Where does pride enter into it? For example, "Billy" lists his Echovald Shield with a b/o of 100e, but after 3 weeks of thread bumps the bids don't go over 75k. Does that mean that the bidders are all lowballing assholes?
3. Player wealth - I think we can all accept that some people overpay on a regular basis. How does that effect their perception of their items' value? (IE: Do they think that because they overpaid, that they should be able to recoup 100% of their investment when selling?)
The *apparent* increase in interest in oldschool items. Note that I'm not entirely sure that there *is* an increase in interest. But as I said in the OP, I think that there's definitely an increase in the average sellers perception of value. No idea why, so I'm curious to hear some opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

I see the sellers at fault for lowball offers. What is the point of a starting bid when they obviously will not accept that price (Starting bid of 1K for an obviously highend mini for example). Make the S/B in the sales thread your R/B and everything is fine.

Dont screw around for weeks on end for one measly item if you 1. dont want to sell and 2. people dont know what you are willing to sell for. This will only let the thread be abandoned by buyers because they see the OP being 5 weeks old and still nothing sold even though they have been the highest bidder for 4 of those weeks.

That's an excellent point, and I think there should really be a Ventari's rule to cover this sort of thing. It's usually high-end auction-type threads that are the worst offenders. Multiple pages of bids with none even getting *close* to the r/b. It's ridiculous and just wastes everyone's time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

I think what Jimbo is getting at more is the higher-end stuff that's popping up recently with buyers getting bids of xxx ecto-xxx arms, reaching a crux point where no more bids come in, and shutting the thread down with statements like "sorry, no decent offers - keeping item!" (correct me if I'm wrong, Jimbo).

Yup, that's part of it. I think that some high-end traders need to realize that it's no longer 2006-07 when there was a huge GW population competing for rare stuff. But it's been happening with low-end stuff recently too. Like people hanging a 20e price tag on a crap, high-req Reinforced Buckler with two non-max inherents when the shield probably should've gone straight to the merchant (note that I just made this up as an example, so anyone who has something like that in a Sell thread shouldn't feel like I'm picking on them.

).