Curse

**Kvinna** · Mar 13, 2014, 09:22 PM // 21:22

I understand where you're coming from, Max, and how frustrating it is to have to deal with scammers, but there are many reasons why we don't allow naming them, and people have already mentioned them in this thread. The biggest one being that we want to make sure that people aren't being falsely accused. I know you mentioned screenshots, but seeing as those can easily be manipulated, we can't really rely on them 100%.

In the end, modding Ventari's is already a tough enough job with people crying foul on each other. Sadly, we just can't rely on everyone to be truthful, and to add another layer to that wouldn't be helpful at all. This is just not the place to out people so the rule will not be changing.

Mouse at Large · Mar 14, 2014, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxBorken

<snip> I've had known dodgy traders try to tell me that a 250e shield I'm selling is only worth 10e, but they'd offer me 15 as a favour. Or asking me for a PC then to PM someone who's selling it afterwards telling them it's worthless. Or (and again, no names please) someone constantly spamming WTB something at a high price to drive the price up, then miraculously having one to sell...(like happened to oni blades btw).<snip>

Max

Therein lies the nub of the problem. You may think something is worth 250e, and based on your considerable experience, that may well be reasonable, but until you actually have an offer to buy, or better still, actually sell it, then that is an opinion. Also, where do you draw the line between power-trading and scamming? Taking your example, if you had been offered 150e? 200e? 100e?

Finally, suppose you bought an item for 15e and someone else is of the opinion that it's worth say 150e, would that make you a scammer

sun strike · Mar 14, 2014, 09:36 AM // 09:36

scamming and getting a bargain is 2 different stories.

MaxBorken · Mar 14, 2014, 09:39 AM // 09:39

The guy knew what it was worth. No doubt about it. He does that all day every day. But yea, I knew its true value just as well as he did. He was trying to rip me off. Quite simply, he thought I was another mug he could rip off. But that's the smaller of the misdemeanours I mentioned.

And for what it's worth, I always ask what figure people are expecting, and if they don't know, I ask what they'd be happy with. I never try to deliberately rip people off.

It's the intention to deceive that I'm talking about.

@kivinna...

Thanks for the reply

I'm glad the thread got noticed, and I appreciate your position. It's what I expected , but some constructive dialogue on the issue would be useful rather than a straight no

. Is there a possibility? I'd hate to lose the opportunity to discuss it.

Max

Bristlebane · Mar 14, 2014, 12:22 PM // 12:22

There's a group of guys that hangs out in every major city, they lowball you on everything you offer.
They happily offer you 100g for ectos, 1g for black dyes, ~50g for rare old school items.
Not allowed to tell you any names but I'm sure you met them.

jon comgree · Mar 20, 2014, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun strike

scamming and getting a bargain is 2 different stories.

That is true but always aiming to get higher/lower prices is pretty close to scamming imo when the margin is above/below 50% or to be more precise, ripping people off which on the morale compass is right next to scamming.

sun strike · Mar 21, 2014, 07:56 AM // 07:56

its not scamming when the price is agreed upon by both parties.
prices are not determined for any skin but for what someone else is willing to pay for it.

Cleavage · Mar 24, 2014, 11:27 AM // 11:27

5-6 years ago I bought a r8 tactics Echovald +30 -10 piercing for 100k from a guy who barely ever played. I sold it that week for 250e. Would some people call that a scam ? If they did then it's my opinion they are stupid to think so. Could I then look at it like the buyer scammed me because 5-6 years later its now worth 100+ arms ?

Opinion and perspective are a dangerous mix.

Addressing a straight up scam like someone offering to buy a rare mini and asking for your skype info to try and offer some crazy cash price and tricking you into hitting accept on a trade saying the money is sent would be a true scam. I am really not sure of what could be considered scamming when you use a trade window thou ? You put an item up and both parties hit accept. If someone says "pay me now and then I'll" you need to back away and say no.

Sorry but I just need a little more info as to understand what the scam is in this situation. Hit me up in game Max and lets talk. It's been a few weeks since our last tea and crumpits session.

P.S. Who has my old Echovald ? I am sure some of you might now and I really dont feel like searching

-andy- · Mar 24, 2014, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Yeah it's not scamming if both parties agree but I guess you can feel pretty bad sometimes when you get a too good to be true deal. Then again that is trading and if you have no idea what an item is worth, don't sell until you do... Most people don't want to pay more than they have to.

And @ Cleavage, I'm pretty sure Rice has that Echovald now

Enchanted Krystal · Mar 25, 2014, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by -andy-

Yeah it's not scamming if both parties agree but I guess you can feel pretty bad sometimes when you get a too good to be true deal. Then again that is trading and if you have no idea what an item is worth, don't sell until you do... Most people don't want to pay more than they have to.

And @ Cleavage, I'm pretty sure Rice has that Echovald now

Very true. Take the Q8/16 Darkwing I brought a few months ago for example. After viewing it in the sellers window I asked how much? The seller advised that he wanted 250e for it, as it was a popular skin. I agreed, paid & resold it 2 days later for 1750e. It's is worth mentioning that at the same time I brought it, there was a WTB add on Guru for this shield with the buyer offering 1500e for one if someone could supply it. If the seller was too lazy to look, or to get a PC beforehand, then DOOM ON THEM. I paid his full asking price, he was happy & I was happy, this is not scamming IMO.

You can't have your cake, and eat it too.

~EK~

EDIT: and I love this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleavage

.....I am really not sure of what could be considered scamming when you use a trade window thou ? You put an item up and both parties hit accept.

100% true.

MaxBorken · Mar 25, 2014, 06:20 AM // 06:20

When a price is agreed, then it's fair enough. If the seller wasn't aware of an item's value, and asks for a figure, then it's ok. I had an r8 Magmas -2/ench +29 which the seller was delighted when I agreed to the 25e he asked for it. I did not try to tell him I would only pay 25, or that it was worthless for example. He asked for that. A week later I later sold it for 1200e. He was very happy with the 25. We've all been in that position. Like Sunstrike said, getting a bargain is not the same as scamming.

I mentioned the types of scam in my earlier posts though. The ones where people are deliberately misled, instead of being happy with a price. Yes, I know that's a grey area. But I'm fed up with the cheats and liars, but more than that, I'm fed up that the rules here don't allow us to address it. In fact, the rules seem to protect the cheats and liars from being exposed. 'Like the guy yesterday spamming WTS Ded panda 30euro PayPal. 100% legit'. I'm sure that was 100% legit

Or a certain demons shield that was sold recently, which the new owner (with whom I myself have had trust and honesty issues) spamming it for sale last night with a blatantly fake and overpriced c/o.

Sure, there was one incident that prompted me to start this, and technically that wasn't a scam because the price was agreed, but for me that was the final straw as I know the buyer has a reputation for being a bit shady. I won't go into it though, and I ask you all not to either.

Max

Enchanted Krystal · Mar 25, 2014, 07:38 AM // 07:38

The only scam I am aware of, would be for sales over 1750e & would require a corrupt middle man.....no names mentioned. Obviously rmt trades are very open to scams, but trades with the ingame trade window require both people to be happy before a deal can be done. Armbrace exchange rates & current market value of the item, are something any seller/buyer should be aware of.......

Edit: Any trade that requires someone to "go first" will always be dubious ground.

Händler · Apr 16, 2014, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Hey guys, since Ive been a very active trader for like 7 years now I have seen a lot of so called "scams" over the years. I would even say Ive seen it all. A lot of (sometimes first hand) negative experiences have lead to a very strict "dont trust anyone"-policy for me. The only way Id trust someone is when I know him in RL cuz then I can go to his place at any time and punch him in teh face if he ever does something bad to me. I personally draw the line depending on the value of items, if sth is worth that much that its loss would really hurt me, then what I just said applies, I dont trust anyone except I know him in RL. If I consider the value of sth low enough to be sure I could survive its loss in the worst case scenario then I trust certain people whom I only know ingame but have known them for a very long time so Im pretty sure they will not scam me especially if they have enough money themselves to consider that item not worthy of scaming for either. Its as simple as that for me, I have my own rules I stick to and i think everyone should have those for himself.
As to the scamming itself Id say at least in my very opinion in very close to 100% of all cases where we speak of "scamming" its always the fault of the person who got scammed, at least to a big part. I know the truth sometimes hurts people, but Ive been scammed many times when I was still a noob in the game and instead of whining about it like most people did, I accepted the facts, i was naive, I didnt inform myself and most of all I was stupid. It did hurt a lot and its not nice at all to feel betrayed, but I just can give you all one advice: DEAL WITH IT! Dont look for excuses, accept that YOU made a mistake and try to learn from your mistakes.
And about the people who do scams on purpose I can just say, Im not mad at them and I dont hate them, I just pity them, cuz I know they feel miserable. Its basic truth, if you try to make other peoples lives miserable its cuz your miserable yourself. So I know that those people will never have the good life I have, which again makes very thankful for what I have, seein that other people dont. I always try to see those people as what they are, troubled people, who have problems in their own life, maybe with their family, like not gettin enough love etc and therefore not knowing the value of things like friendship, trust, honor etc.

Thats just my point of view, since English is not my first language I dunno if you get what I really wanna say, so if u got any questions ask me and Ill try to explain as good as possible

(***mod edit---This is a message board, not a chat room. DO NOT use "Leet-Speak", etc...fixed per GURU rules---mod edit***)

Enchanted Krystal · Apr 22, 2014, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Händler

.... It did hurt a lot and its not nice at all to feel betrayed, but I just can give u all one advice: DEAL WITH IT! Dont look for excuses, accept that U made a mistake and try to learn from ur mistakes.......

Very wise words indeed.

On a separate note, I recently found myself trying to do "one person goes 1st" trades in Spamadan & man was I instantly labeled "a scammer" lol. FYI people, If a deal sounds dubious, guess what, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THE DEAL!! I did not try to force anyone into anything & I respected those who chose not to proceed once the details were explained, but I DID get heckled A LOT. I made quite a few new friends along the way & the only one who got scammed was me when I "went 1st" the first two times.

I just wanted to add this information as up-until now, I too presumed every dubious deal was a scammer. It's not always the case.

MaxBorken · Apr 22, 2014, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchanted Krystal

& the only one who got scammed was me when I "went 1st" the first two times.

So the names of those first 2 scammers would go on the list.

I agree, don't take the deal if you don't want it.

Max

Also, to be clear...
Sure, I made a few bad purchases that didn't make any profit (one even made me a 20e loss!) but I have never been scammed and I certainly am not whinging about getting scammed.
I'm fed up with these scumbags trying to deliberately rip people off, and getting away with such staggering dishonesty and fraud.

Enchanted Krystal · Apr 22, 2014, 09:52 AM // 09:52

I know where your coming from Max, fo sho. I have also noticed of late that certain people watch collectors, see what they bid on, b/o said item's & then re-list it a few weeks later hoping to get more money for them. :/ Or in Max's case, having someone buy an item out from under your nose & then offer it straight to you for an exorbitant price because they seem to think all collectors have ecto trees growing in their Xunlai Chest's.

It's just kinda sad...