Curse

MaxBorken · Mar 10, 2014, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Greetings gurus.

Firstly, this thread is not here to flame the mods, nor to discuss names. I will close it myself if it begins to breach current forum rules. Please don't mention names here, this is purely to see if my idea will gain support, or if it sinks without a trace.

So, currently we are not allowed to post names or screenshots of characters that are not our own. Whilst I understand the reasons behind this, I feel that this policy is too broad, and it does not allow the traders' community to warn other traders of scammers and thieves.

The whole point of a community is that we can warn other members of any dangers, and discuss topics that are relevant. But currently, all we can do with regard to scammers is mention the way that is was done. But I feel this isn't enough. We should be able to name the scammer and post any screenshots as a warning both to ourselves, and to all potential scammers who may read it.

I am posting this now after a high-profile trader and collector was recently asked by the mods to remove a reference to a scam that ocurred during a high-profile trade involving a very expensive item. I feel that this comment should have been allowed to stand. (I will not reveal any details, even in PM, so don't ask). Furthermore, I believe that there should be a thread in this section dedicated to giving names of all scammers that are known of, and the methods used.

Granted, the waters can get a little murky if someone wants to damage a reputation (and this is the reason the rules are as they currently are). However, good reputations are built over a long period of time, so it would be easy to spot the trolls. But would that high profile trader have treated the trade differently had he been warned of the buyer's reputation for scamming? My reputation here is good (I hope

), but equally, others' reputations are bad.

Discuss.

Max

The Mountain · Mar 10, 2014, 01:21 PM // 13:21

I fully understand the motivation and would support the change, but one reservation keeps me from adding that support.

Ultimately, everyone has a price (apparently mine is stupid high...you're welcome, Popel

). At some point, the reputation comes second to the gain. We all know of a situation over a year ago where a high profile, reputable trader made that choice for fewer than two stacks of braces.

Thus, we all need to be relatively smart and careful. In the situation you reference, I doubt the same trade would have occurred when the seller was actively playing; he would have been more careful. Certainly, I place no blame on him, but waiting for currency conversion would have eliminated the scam potential.

MaxBorken · Mar 10, 2014, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Perhaps, but the buyer would (should) have been aware of the exchange rate, and therefore deliberately underpaid, thus qualifying for a mention as a scammer. Agreed, sellers should also be aware. It's not clear-cut, but once his name is in a rogues gallery, people can be more wary.

I'm not looking to discuss that individual trade, but I bet you 10g that the buyer didn't offer to correct the underestimation, or say 'oops, I seem to have ripped you off' etc. He did it on purpose, exploiting the inactivity of the seller, a tactic that could be eliminated (theoretically) if we can police ourselves....

Max

The Mountain · Mar 10, 2014, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Consider another aspect of the situation then:

If 100% proof of rogue-status is confirmed, and an individual is placed on such a list here, I would wager a large sum the individual would be aware of his/her placement on the list. Assuming another scam came to mind, would not an alternate account be used? Keep in mind, most people with the funds and motivation to pull off a significant scam at this point in the game are quite likely to have access to multiple accounts.

On the other hand, if the status is not publicly posted (but only discussed in game among friends), then said rogue may not be aware of his/her infamy and attempt future cons with the same account.

Basically, I'm saying I doubt such a list would prevent many (if any) cons. If 100% proof were offered EVERY time (look at every other thread that tends to be misused here), then I would consider supporting it to annoy the frauds by forcing the inconvenience of swapping accounts on them. That said, the defamation of false claims, flame wars, and mistrust that would likely ensue cause this idea to fall far short on a pro/con list.

MaxBorken · Mar 10, 2014, 02:56 PM // 14:56

You are of course right. And that's the downside.

This was always going to be controversial, but I felt it was worth discussion at least.

M

Warehouse · Mar 10, 2014, 02:56 PM // 14:56

I would support the idea max but as u said there would be a fair amount of lies and trolls to dig through before we can get to the real trades and scams.

There are only a couple of ways I can think of to remedy this, one would be that all accused scammers could not be named unless appropriate proof is given. And by appropriate proof we all know screens of 2 or 3 sections of the trade would more than likely suffice, however these screens would have to be audited by a mod before released into the thread which would probably take multiple mods hours to sift through and come to a decision depending on the complexity of the scam and the level of proof provided.

The second and rather less concrete way I can think of is a second sister thread aimed souly at increasing legit traders rep, so for instance trade moderators including already high profile ones would benefit from this, or screens of traders correcting an error made in the trade, we have all made these, missed a 0 or added to many of something if it was a honest mistake and corrected then they should receive the rep for correcting it.

That's my idea feel free to critique etc

Chron/warehouse

MaxBorken · Mar 10, 2014, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Afterthought to Gregor's point about them using different accounts...

We'd all naturally be careful about handing over vast sums to money to a guru account that has existed for 2 days. Or to a lvl 6 dervish with an unknown guild tag in game...

New account = alarm bells.

M

The Mountain · Mar 10, 2014, 03:45 PM // 15:45

A new guru account, surely, is a flag.

I have almost 10 accounts with lvl 20s (not pvp, which can be made instantly). Guild tags are easy enough to come by

The point is that a motivated con man will con you...unless you personally take steps to ensure it doesn't happen. Positive and negative rep on a forum are insufficient. Again, refer to the OTHER familiar case with a known/respected trader who decided 400a-ish was enough to take a risk.

Aco Assasin · Mar 11, 2014, 03:50 PM // 15:50

I would like for this to be a case but idk nor have i time to read if this was said but i dont think it should be used to rage players only to warn or ask for help..

sun strike · Mar 12, 2014, 12:22 AM // 00:22

who got scammed?(pm me the details)

Revealing the methods used is a double edged blade in someways, not everyone uses guru, let alone look in the traders section often and copycat scammers will use it against those who aren't well informed.

MaxBorken · Mar 12, 2014, 10:03 AM // 10:03

These are the exact same conclusions that I came to unfortunately.
But I did at least have a moment of partial clarity while preparing dinner last night...

How about a small, dedicated closed forum on another site where only a select few reputable traders/collectors can actually post, but it is readable by everyone....
That way any scams can be reported there, and because only a dozen or so people can make posts, there would be no flame wars.

I have no idea how that would be setup... My internetskillz are limited at best, but what do people think of that?

This whole idea is more to protect traders from scoundrels and ragamuffins than as a general warning to everybody who sells a celestial mini from time to time.
Once we know a name is dodgy, we steer clear anyway, why not consolidate and share that info?

Max

Jansy · Mar 12, 2014, 04:47 PM // 16:47

I appreciate all opinions on this thread. I personally think consolidating and sharing information on a "scoundrel" is for peers only. Making this public knowledge will happen organically when peers tell there peers and so on and so forth.

Right now, due to the life cycle of this amazing game, i believe that creating this idea is maybe what respected traders needed 2-3 years ago. A good idea nonetheless, but just a bit too late to save the day. Also, if anyone feels obliged to share information on scoundrels, feel free to inbox me.

Francis Bacon said: "Knowledge is Power!"

Enchanted Krystal · Mar 13, 2014, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jansy

..
Francis Bacon said: "Knowledge is Power!"

'A little learning is a dangerous thing' Alexander Pope.

I agree with Sunstrike's comments 100%, it would be a double edged sword if the information was made public. Just my 2 cents.

MaxBorken · Mar 13, 2014, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Yep, it will be a double edged sword.
But right now I'm fed up with cheats, liars, scammers and thieves trying to squeeze everything they can out of us.
But more than that, I'm fed up that guildwarsguru.com isn't interested in exposing these cheats and liars. Indeed, it seems that the rules here allow them to operate their scams without impunity or consequence. When a name or scam is mentioned, the mods take it down. It's not good enough.

I take great pride in trading ethically and I always try to be fair. And I'm not super-rich. (I'm not poor either) but the scammers are allowed to rip people off with ease, and can get super-rich by doing so. This is the main hub for traders and collectors to operate, and the rules are working against the honest traders.

And it will get worse.

Max

tooburns · Mar 13, 2014, 08:32 AM // 08:32

^^
this .

sun strike · Mar 13, 2014, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Yeah, its a shame although gwguru has been like this since the beginning, i for one respect their decisions(tbh they have done so well to moderate this forum for nearly a decade), this has been the longest standing gwguru fansite because of what they continue to do and uphold.

witch hunts just bring negativity to the forum and its kinda pointless trying to name traders as they can easily change char names or create new accounts on gwguru or ingame.

But i do support a different idea: a list of items that are of scammed origins.
Boycott or reclaim the item.

whats done is done.
at the end of the day it is just pixels, if someone is desperate enough to scam over it(esp 10 yr old game), then they need to get their priorities straight irl.

don't hurt over pixels. just vent it once and move on, this game WON'T LAST forever, everyone should realize this before they get too emotional over it.

my 3 cents

The Mountain · Mar 13, 2014, 12:57 PM // 12:57

It occurs to me that a list in a certain guild status or guild forum (seriously, a forum takes a few minutes to set up) would inform the majority of the high end traders who would take the warnings seriously. GWGuru may even allow a link to said forum to be placed here informing readers what it contains. Such a compromise might work as all claims could be evaluated by super new forum mod Max

MaxBorken · Mar 13, 2014, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun strike

witch hunts just bring negativity to the forum and its kinda pointless trying to name traders as they can easily change char names or create new accounts on gwguru or ingame.

But you'd have no problems making a large trade with me (I hope) because at over 1000 posts and 4 years(?) on guru, and 8 years invested in the game I have built my reputation. You would however be instantly more cautious making a large trade with a brand new guru account, or a name you never heard of. Most large trades are done with the main character in game anyway. Notoriety making them start new accounts can only start alarm bells.

And on another note, I agree that the mods are doing a great job here, in tricky circumstances, and they do it voluntarily too. Hats off to them. It's the rules they enforce that I'm aiming at here, not the mods themselves.

Max

Mouse at Large · Mar 13, 2014, 01:46 PM // 13:46

I am not a "trader", but I have mixed views on this. It all depends on what you define as a scam. If you mean deliberately using false items in trade, lulling players into dropping items then picking them up or similar, then there might be some merit in the idea, but only if there was proof or strong corroboration.

What I'm not comfortable with is someone deciding that just because a seller has parted with an item for considerably less than someone else thinks it's worth, the seller has been scammed and the buyer is a scammer. That depends on opinion, not fact.

MaxBorken · Mar 13, 2014, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Yea, point taken. It's not so much about differences of opinion as to an item's worth, it's more to do with deliberate deception. (Which common sense or experience can usually spot). By that, I mean deliberately misleading the seller as to an items value. Or selling items from a hacked account, or making a part payment then not paying the rest (common sense, but it does happen) I'm talking about dishonesty, not differences in opinion. I've had known dodgy traders try to tell me that a 250e shield I'm selling is only worth 10e, but they'd offer me 15 as a favour. Or asking me for a PC then to PM someone who's selling it afterwards telling them it's worthless. Or (and again, no names please) someone constantly spamming WTB something at a high price to drive the price up, then miraculously having one to sell...(like happened to oni blades btw). I mean who ACTUALLY has 10,000 Z-keys for sale? But the Kama-Spam is right there. Or selling known dupes.... Or fake c/o in Kamadan or on guru. It's those guys I'm targeting.

Max