Curse

Captain Krompdown · Jan 09, 2015, 06:49 PM // 18:49

I just took my usual once-every-other-week look at Guru and saw this thread. Oh boy! Reflections on the game, existential crises, historical perspectives -- it's the most exciting thing to happen in GW in a long time!

So, naturally, I couldn't just keep my mouth shut and click onto the next thing.

Guild Wars is more than 10 years old. RMT is nothing new. Once upon a time, you didn't need to go to the "black market" to buy in-game currency. You just had to hop over to EBay. Some of the most famous collections in GW history were built using RMT. For example, this is how Akh assembled his collection. I only give this example because: 1) it's common knowledge and 2) it illustrates how long RMT has plagued the collecting scene in GW.

There are other things that aren't new to the game. If you collect something and publicize that fact, you will only drive up the price on those items. This is LITERALLY the price of fame. There is no other way. This is why the contents of my vault were a closely-guarded secret until the final days of my collecting career. Even prices on something as silly as Req 13 Str shields went through the roof as soon as I started publicizing my love for them (and calling them 'heavy'...and making fun of girls and monks who tried to lift them). Again, this is the price of fame and something that every collector should expect if they want to make their collections (and their collecting) a public spectacle.

This brings me to two related points: one about the notion of 'collecting' and one about the notion of being a 'gentleman'. These ideas structured my GW experience. I think they're being undermined in this thread. Let me explain.

Collecting vs. hoarding

Collecting is not hoarding. Hoarders gather and keep things that other people throw away and/or are easily accessible. Hoarders keep their used tissues. Hoarders have more dishwashing detergent in their house than the local supermarket. Anyone can keep old tissues or buy up detergent, but almost no one chooses to do these things. There is no special value to snotrags or detergent except to the broken person doing the hoarding.

In Guild Wars, if someone has a vault full of unnatural seeds (or whatever), that would be a hoarder. There is no value to those seeds, anyone can get as many of them as they want, and there certainly is no competition for specific seeds. Actually, there is no difference between specific seeds. The person simply wants more of them because of some compulsion for more. There is no end. No final seed will make this person whole. This person is a hoarder.

Collectors, on the other hand, pursue items that are not generally available and that are generally considered valuable (in terms of money, meaning, or both). Generally speaking, collectors pursue some form of perfection, which will make them whole. EK gave a good example with his dual reduction magmas shields. That req 9 shield made him whole. There are other examples.

Calli's gigantic echovald collection is another good example. There were specific shields that could be added to her collection to get her closer to her goal. This was a collection. Calli collected echovald shields. She did not hoard them.

My brother, Kabong, pursued req 8 hammers with the same collector's passion. He did not hoard req 8 hammers. There were plenty that he let pass. What he did in his time, though, was assemble maybe the single most complete and perfect collection of anything that anyone has ever assembled. He did not hoard.

Max does not hoard dual reduction shields. As he said, there are beautiful specimens that he let pass because they didn't move his collection toward wholeness.

This is not to say that someone's status as a "collector" is defined by the things they don't buy. That would make no sense. My only point here is that hoarders mindlessly accumulate non-valuable items with no clear goals. That is not what a collector does. For example, a collector might acquire a duplicate of a collection-worthy item so that someday they might be able to trade that away for another item that would bring them closer to wholeness. A hoarder wouldn't be able to distinguish between items that move them toward wholeness and ones that don't. For hoarders, there is no end.

The 'gentleman'

Collecting is a complicated game. It is a social game and a knowledge game every bit as much as a financial game. Collecting is an activity that can be done in a variety of ways. I do believe that there is a right way and a wrong way (many of them, actually). Others may not agree and that's fine. Fighting fair is Rule #1. This is what it means to be a 'gentleman' -- fighting fair no matter how badly you want to come out victorious.

People who buy their in-game currency are not fighting fair. They're not playing the game. They're just bulldozing things into their vaults. I don't see how that's collecting or, really, how that's fun at all. But I (as a former collector) am grudgingly resigned to the fact that things like that happen. They happen all the time, and they've happened for more than a decade. Sometimes, it's even celebrated collectors who do it. I think that people who have dedicated themselves to gentlemanly collecting should be celebrated. It's harder than PvP. Your enemies are greed, stupidity, and money. Few of us triumph against those foes.

Reflections from Kromp

Soon, my little guild, [PhD], will have another birthday. I think we're turning 8. Maybe 9. We've been at this for a long time. My guild has grown and changed in many different ways over the years, but one thing hasn't changed. We've always valued doing things the right way. This was true when we were small, it was true when we were at our peak (and struck by the twin blows of Stza Erza's tragic overdose and Jason XII's shenanigans), and it is true now, even as our guild has become more inclusive and public in character.

Maybe it is time to reverse course on that last step. Maybe the guild, in my absence, has become too big for its britches. The new slogan that people have coined (This is who we are, etc.) is prima facie evidence of this. I think the slogan is hokey and adolescent. I think it's an embarrassment to the guild and contradicts the values upon which the guild has been built. We are supposed to be knowledgeable collectors helping to preserve the history of the game, as manifested in its items. We are not a bunch of 7th graders riding around on our bikes telling everyone how cool and awesome we are. It's tired, it's old, it was a bad idea from the beginning, and my sincere hope is that it disappears.

In the past, I worked hard to make sure that the guild did not include anyone who bought or sold in-game currency. I think this is crucially important for the guild. If there is any solid evidence of any member of [PhD] doing this, please PM me with the info and I will remove the offending member myself.

The guild deserves better than 7th grade quality holliganism, a tacky slogan, and black marketeering. If [PhD] is going to be of any value at all to the community at large, we also owe them better.

RosettaStoned · Jan 09, 2015, 08:39 PM // 20:39

@ Captain Krompdown, all i can say to that is ... #RESPECT

i can see from all the posts in this thread i was wrong about PhD and i apologize for that. i got a bad impression from being called something that im not, but i can see it's obviously a classy guild with a lot of good peeps and great leadership. your post gave me some perspective to, as much as i want that shield i think its belongs with a true collector rather then with all of my hoarded stuff. and at the end of the day i think treating everyone with mutual respect cant hurt when it comes to the economy and getting the ideal prices your looking for.

Surge goes pre · Jan 09, 2015, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RosettaStoned

@ Captain Krompdown, all i can say to that is ... #RESPECT

i can see from all the posts in this thread i was wrong about PhD and i apologize for that. i got a bad impression from being called something that im not, but i can see it's obviously a classy guild with a lot of good peeps and great leadership. your post gave me some perspective to, as much as i want that shield i think its belongs with a true collector rather then with all of my hoarded stuff. and at the end of the day i think treating everyone with mutual respect cant hurt when it comes to the economy and getting the ideal prices your looking for.

If I have learned one thing about Kromp over the years, he is very well spoken.

Rosetta, as a former PhD'er (who is pursuing a real PhD) who has watched this drama unfold and tried to stay rational somewhat, I do look down upon what has been going on and is part of the reason I have been reluctant to join back at the moment. Just way too much drama for me. I have found many lesser drama homes for the meantime. I've done my fair share of calling people out for sure and am in no way perfect, but I try to hold it to the obvious - when someone is selling a merch food item for 100e or some crap.

I just want to say: I don't think what is going on is because the members are bad people full of mal-intent - many of them are my friends. I think it is because people in PhD love collecting items, it is the PhD tradition. And there is a new "threat" to that tradition - what many have eluded to.

I understand their frustration. I have been saving for an IG for years, and then some no name ebayer comes along and buys one I thought I had a chance at getting. It sucks. I think the problem is just trying to keep emotions in check a little bit more. Gotta get outside and smell the roses too, you know? They smell great. And some day, the roses will still be there, but the ig won't last forever.

Zephyr of Light · Apr 22, 2015, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Krompdown

Collecting vs. hoarding

Collecting is not hoarding. Hoarders gather and keep things that other people throw away and/or are easily accessible. Hoarders keep their used tissues. Hoarders have more dishwashing detergent in their house than the local supermarket. Anyone can keep old tissues or buy up detergent, but almost no one chooses to do these things. There is no special value to snotrags or detergent except to the broken person doing the hoarding.

In Guild Wars, if someone has a vault full of unnatural seeds (or whatever), that would be a hoarder. There is no value to those seeds, anyone can get as many of them as they want, and there certainly is no competition for specific seeds. Actually, there is no difference between specific seeds. The person simply wants more of them because of some compulsion for more. There is no end. No final seed will make this person whole. This person is a hoarder.

Collectors, on the other hand, pursue items that are not generally available and that are generally considered valuable (in terms of money, meaning, or both). Generally speaking, collectors pursue some form of perfection, which will make them whole.

This is not to say that someone's status as a "collector" is defined by the things they don't buy. That would make no sense. My only point here is that hoarders mindlessly accumulate non-valuable items with no clear goals. That is not what a collector does. For example, a collector might acquire a duplicate of a collection-worthy item so that someday they might be able to trade that away for another item that would bring them closer to wholeness. A hoarder wouldn't be able to distinguish between items that move them toward wholeness and ones that don't. For hoarders, there is no end.

As much this is true, i ALWAYS found this statement questionable regarding myself, especially in the things i collected.
If you know what i collected (Clean (prenerf) non Inscrip EoTN, Nightfall & Core skinned Gold/Purple items with no merchant value) are as rare as they were useless, nobody could indentify them as valueable simply because there is no market or functionality for such items.

That, in my eyes made them rare and unique, comming across a Bone Dragon Staff or Obsidian Blade with no inscription slot, or even a Gold shield with no mods at all makes such oddity's jump out of the Common expected versions.
It would not make them any more practicle as their "useable" counterparts, so for most its considered valueless or just neat shelfpiece to show off at your friends.

Its not like my collection (aside from my Attri Shields) gave any direction where it would go to, it would be simply (nearly 99%) impossible to find a streak of Req 8-13 of the same item with the oddity it holds as the others, there was no way around it.
This also ment i had too "gotta catch 'm all" because they are not Common enough like for example Q8 15^50 Swords to make a structured way of getting a Royal Flush (speaking in terms)
That doesn't mean it does not occur, but so far i only have to get 5 EoTN skins that have no inscription slot.
Not even too speak of the Gold OS items that yield no mods nor an Merchant value at all.

Would i define myself a hoarder on those items?, for reasons said above there is no way around it.
Would such variety of items yielding the same flaws make it a (unstructured) collection?, i would classify it so, hence why i was allowed in [PhD]

However, i felt somewhat the 5th wheel in the guild regarding to what i "hoarded/collected", i also never felt my collection how a true collection would feel like. (for example Max's or EK's)
Which overtime slowly deminished my motivation to keep pulling it through, and eventually resigned from collecting.

Just had to say this.

Zephyr.

shadowfell · May 20, 2015, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Krompdown

In Guild Wars, if someone has a vault full of unnatural seeds (or whatever), that would be a hoarder. There is no value to those seeds, anyone can get as many of them as they want, and there certainly is no competition for specific seeds. Actually, there is no difference between specific seeds. The person simply wants more of them because of some compulsion for more. There is no end. No final seed will make this person whole. This person is a hoarder.

But if a girl has a compulsion to collect seeds, she's called a strumpet.

On a serious note, however, I have been at this for a long time and I used to do it for multiple classes before a lack of space put an iron in the works. I've known everyone worth knowing, and I've known everyone undeserving (and pointed fingers at the trash from the start (y'all should have listened) and I know a lot of the earlier names and start ups came about through RMT and that it's still happening today with some duplication along the way. It is what it is and it's a game that I refuse to play.

I've made mistakes and learned through some of the worst of them that irreplaceable items are seldom seen again once sold - or stolen, so I've done what I can to protect what I have --even to the point where I lamented the decision of making some of my collection public under another topic in this forum. To me, it seems like a walking bulls-eye for those who target and attempt to steal from people, but on the other hand, while most of the stuff I have can be found elsewhere and is not one of a kind -making it less desirable to account hackers, the rarity of it is the years long dedication to creating the most comprehensively complete collection of strictly Mesmer staves, wands, focii and shields.

While some of it has cost me a ton, and has honestly pretty much tapped me out, I've done it honestly and fueled on the buying and selling of inscription goods (so gauche!), selling off anything non-desirable from my other characters' collections and doing some glad-handing with the Dark Side to get my mittens on an item I honestly believed I'd never have. I never purchased ecto or arms, nor knowingly received a duplicated item and I don't typically exploit the collection needs of others to complete my own.

I haven't single handed-ly driven up the market on anything in particular, but I will claim partial responsibility for the demand of and the resulting greed on the part of some sellers to get maximum value for the +1 / +30 caster shields, though I have nothing to do with the current state of ridiculousness and I apologize for those expectations. That aside, people don't have to cave to them if they don't want and I wouldn't recommend it --do or don't pay it because the value isn't for me to determine, it's up to you. Collecting isn't about knowing an arbitrary cost whether or not the price was inflated beyond reason, but more about having the item itself.

I learned very early on that paying triple the perceived value of something didn't make it worth what you paid, it only meant it was in your inventory and now you were out the ecto it took. Since no one else would touch it at the price you overpaid, the estimated market value was moot, the true value was the item on its own and if it were irreplaceable? There is no value other than its possession and that is both the cost and the reward.

With that being said, I've witnessed artificial inflation on duplicated and non-rare items where markets were manufactured and while I find it tacky, it's allowed to happen through nothing other than the outside trying to buy into the inside --game imitating life. If you're unwilling to pay for the image, the façade disappears and the price falls.

It's just that simple.

As for being a non-gender specific gentleperson you should always be the best person you can be, even if your cunning teeth are hidden behind the smile.

0 mesmerised 0 · Nov 16, 2015, 07:43 PM // 19:43

This inflation you speak of causes issues for returning players as well. I started a new account after a five year break and things are noticeably more expensive now. I was looking for a Suntouched spear which I considered to be a rather common skin back in the day. It isn't location specific and can be dropped throughout the nightfall campaign so I have seen a lot of them in the past. Now for these types of items people are asking for 10e or 15e. Since I haven't completed all the campaigns and farmed for months on hard mode I haven't reached my platinum limit. I actually didn't know what an ecto was worth or an arm brace. So when someone wants 10 ectos for a gold weapon that I probably could have got for 5 platinum back in the day it is kind of off putting. The other problem with the elite community is that anything that doesn't have a desirable skin or a perfect mods gets salvaged or sold. So it makes it pretty much impossible to buy things that aren't high end in the current market. Obviously this is just the way it has become over time but all it means for us noobs is that we won't get involved in trading and that if I'm looking for a green item seemingly worth sweet F all, il have to go farm the corresponding boss until he drops it myself.

system.fan · Nov 16, 2015, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0 mesmerised 0

The other problem with the elite community is that anything that doesn't have a desirable skin or a perfect mods gets salvaged or sold. So it makes it pretty much impossible to buy things that aren't high end in the current market.

you're right, there are more people buying "high end" items than earlier... but well you're playing a game which is 10+yrs old - ofc the people got more cash nowadays to afford such prices. Which definitely also means prices for some specific items are wayyy higher than in the early years.

But that's not a bad thing imo.... Not only the other people are selling their items for more gold, you can get more gold for your drops aswell.

And also you can still get tons of low end stuff aswell here as in kamadan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0 mesmerised 0

if I'm looking for a green item seemingly worth sweet F all, il have to go farm the corresponding boss until he drops it myself.

IMO if you really want an item it's worth to farm a bit for it, isnt it? Don't see your point here tbh.
I always enjoyed gathering items myself instead of buying them.

Also please use some breaks in your text the next time.
It was really hard to read ;-)

Cheers

0 mesmerised 0 · Nov 17, 2015, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by system.fan

IMO if you really want an item it's worth to farm a bit for it, isnt it? Don't see your point here tbh.
I always enjoyed gathering items myself instead of buying them.

Also please use some breaks in your text the next time.
It was really hard to read ;-)

Cheers

Well my point is that certain green items may be difficult to gather on your own. Prime example being the drops from Sorrows Furnace.

Korvald Willcrusher only spawns during certain missions, is located at the very bottom of the furnace and can drop three different unique items.

I can get his cane and his chakram myself but I will have to almost completely clear that dungeon and hope they both drop sooner rather than later. Both of these items at one stage I could have bought off another player.

Which is my point, the low end market suffers because items worth less than 5 or 10 ectos don't go into circulation anymore. You salvage them, merch them or asking for 10 ectos anyway.

I have tried getting involved in trading again but the price has inflated too much for me at the moment or it is not worth you guys selling.

Like you said though, ten years old.

**cosyfiep** · Nov 17, 2015, 06:41 AM // 06:41

some items have increased in price while others have dropped. Yes greens are not as desired as they once were (though I can remember when they first came out they were rather pricely--I'm looking at your Rago's flame staff

). I have been trying to farm a few that have unique skins for a long time now (years) and have yet to get those bosses to drop anything for me other than trophies (got roots/husks/stones up the whoha and no greens). You may find a few sell threads with some of the sorrow's furnace greens--especially after the zbounty for the forgeman. (I too have plenty of the offhand korvald drops--think I have a few Nogru's holding those, I have been lucky to have a friend who has much better luck than I and he has gotten a few of the greens I missed, not all though).
It's something to shoot for and gives me another reason to keep playing

(not that I need more reasons

)
good luck on your search!
(just be glad you are a HE minipet collector, think I shall never see an island guardian or panda in my inventory

/sadpanda poet)

trademeimfamous · Nov 19, 2015, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0 mesmerised 0

Well my point is that certain green items may be difficult to gather on your own. Prime example being the drops from Sorrows Furnace.

Korvald Willcrusher only spawns during certain missions, is located at the very bottom of the furnace and can drop three different unique items.

why would the willcrusher be easier to gather for other people than yourself?

you pointed out very well why certain items just are a lot pricier than others.
the willcrusher has a unique skin, popular attribute and decent stats PLUS it is very hard to get. (i definitely would not call it a low-end item.)
if you found it yourself and later decided to sell it, would you just let it go for 5k?

a lot of greens are just as usable (or even better) while they are a lot easier to farm thus very cheap.

as long as you don't have a lot of money you can't be too picky about the stuff that you want (especially not demand other ppl to sell their maybe hard farmed stuff for 5k (i don't mean you in particular with this, but there are ppl out there who do that)).

you do have a point with easy-to-get golden insc items that are often overpriced BUT
1) the price a seller wants for an item can have a wide range depending on whether you search for something specific OR the seller just wants to get rid of it quickly for cash/ storage space
and 2) prices in kamadan are often very high because ofc everybody wants to get the most money out of their stuff.

as long as you just want to buy stuff with perfect stats to use, you can get everything you need and lots more for very little money. just keep your eyes open.